I thought network direct was suppose to fix this problem?

thomasj

So 21:55 and I arrived on the quays to find a 20 minute for the next bus a 39A. 20 minutes for any buses along the navan road corridor.

So as it comes closer to the time there are 3 buses 39A, 39 and 37 within 5 or so minutes between each other as per screenshot. After that it's another 30 minute gap.

For reference, the 39A I am on is nearly full with a few standing. It's ridiculous how bad these network direct timetables on the navan road corridor have been designed.

LastStop

thomasj wrote: »

So 21:55 and I arrived on the quays to find a 20 minute for the next bus a 39A. 20 minutes for any buses along the navan road corridor.

So as it comes closer to the time there are 3 buses 39A, 39 and 37 within 5 or so minutes between each other as per screenshot. After that it's another 30 minute gap.

For reference, the 39A I am on is nearly full with a few standing. It's ridiculous how bad these network direct timetables on the navan road corridor have been designed.

Same on the rock road. 4 and 7 travel down together and then gap of 20mins for next bus.

The thinking behind the network direct was sound. Unfortunately it's the reality did work that we'll.

dfx-

The problem being the 39A is very popular southside, the evening services can be heavily filled and it reaches Baggot St around the same time the 39 departs. They should be scheduled to leave their termini at the same time.

The real problem of course being that network direct was a cover for moving the fleet out of the city centre and reducing capacity by splitting and blending routes together. The reduced capacity including lower capacity buses that we are still stuck with today.

A few weeks back, a VT on the 39A, 2120 ex-UCD had 110 people on board leaving Aston Quay.

LXFlyer

thomasj wrote: »

So 21:55 and I arrived on the quays to find a 20 minute for the next bus a 39A. 20 minutes for any buses along the navan road corridor.

So as it comes closer to the time there are 3 buses 39A, 39 and 37 within 5 or so minutes between each other as per screenshot. After that it's another 30 minute gap.

For reference, the 39A I am on is nearly full with a few standing. It's ridiculous how bad these network direct timetables on the navan road corridor have been designed.

It's easier to fix this kind of thing on corridors where the bus routes start and finish at the same location and then follow the exact same routing - for example the 25a/25b are integrated, and the 26, 66/a/b and 67 are integrated from town.

But it becomes more difficult where you have a mix of cross-city routes and routes starting from city centre, and bus routes that take different routings along the way.

Now there may well be a case for better separation between the 37 and 39 from town, but integrating the 39 and 39a is more difficult given that for most of the time they operate at different frequencies, they start from different locations at the southern end, and they take different routes in Blanchardstown and Clonsilla.

Taking the 39 and 39a inbound for example - where would you attempt integrate them? From the terminus or along the Navan Road? Given the different routings they take those two are mutually exclusive as the 39 routing is longer around Clonsilla and in Blanachardstown than the 39a. If they left Ongar at the same time the likelihood is that they'd bunch from the M50 inwards.

Similarly with the 4 and 7 - they start in different locations. An effort could be made to schedule them so that they don't bunch, but a 4 could get delayed easily between Ballymun and the city and a 7 delayed through Dún Laoghaire inbound.

Network Direct was a starting point which cut a lot of excess capacity out and improved timetable design but there is a need now for a Network Direct V2 which involves standing back from the timetables and trying to look at the corridors as a whole.

Ultimately the only way you can try to deliver that is to have timetabled intermediate points - but that could mean buses waiting at stops if they arrive early and I'm not sure how people would feel about that. It seems to split people down the middle between those who want a reliable predictable service and those who want to travel as fast as possible.

LXFlyer

Add to that off-peak and Sunday frequency needs to be increased on many routes, but given state financing issues that's going to be a slow process.

There will be further fleet expansion this year (as there has been for each year recently) but it's all gradual.

dfx-

What you need is the main corridor serviced well, northbound is between Dawson St and Blackhall Place and southbound between Blanch SC and Bachelor's Walk.

If they were to leave termini at the same time, that main corridor would not be bunching. They're certainly not bunching after Blanch SC, the 39A will be a long way ahead as the direct route.

The northbound stretch worked perfectly tonight. The 2100 ex-Burlington Rd 39 and the usually very busy 2100 ex-UCD 39A leave at the same time and reach the quays 10-12 minutes apart, providing the quays with a 10 minute service on the corridor.

However the next 39A (2120) catches the next 39 (2130) by the time it departs and they both run together to the quays, twenty minutes later.

Same resources, double the waiting time.

LXFlyer

dfx- wrote: »

What you need is the main corridor serviced well, northbound is between Dawson St and Blackhall Place and southbound between Blanch SC and Bachelor's Walk.

If they were to leave termini at the same time, that main corridor would not be bunching. They're certainly not bunching after Blanch SC, the 39A will be a long way ahead as the direct route.

The northbound stretch worked perfectly tonight. The 2100 ex-Burlington Rd 39 and the usually very busy 2100 ex-UCD 39A leave at the same time and reach the quays 10-12 minutes apart, providing the quays with a 10 minute service on the corridor.

However the next 39A (2120) catches the next 39 (2130) by the time it departs and they both run together to the quays, twenty minutes later.

Same resources, double the waiting time.

Yes but the problem there is that the two routes operate at different frequencies on weekday evenings - the 39 every 30 minutes and the 39a every 20 minutes. That's impossible to integrate properly.

dfx-

Well yes, the timetable post-network direct is the problem. The lack of capacity (or lower frequency on the 39) is the problem.

You could integrate them very easily with the smooth running of the corridor without the need for intermediate points.

LXFlyer

dfx- wrote: »

Well yes, the timetable post-network direct is the problem. The lack of capacity (or lower frequency on the 39) is the problem.

You could integrate them very easily with the smooth running of the corridor without the need for intermediate points.

Does Clonsilla Road need a higher service level than it has at the moment (that's the unique section of the 39)? I'm not convinced that it does. I'd have thought that the answer on Monday-Friday evenings would be to increase the 39a to every 15 minutes and by doing that you could integrate the 37, 39 and 39a with buses leaving the city centre every 7-8 minutes.

But that requires additional buses - we will have to wait and see how the additional fleet capacity this year will be deployed.

As for integrating inbound - it is more difficult to do when routes are of differing length, and taking different routes, and indeed different driving styles. It would take a lot of work to deliver and I'm not convinced that without intermediate timing points that it would work.

However I think that there is (as I mentioned above) a need to become more forensic in terms of planning services so that in addition to individual routes being scheduled with regular clockface off-peak schedules that corridors be looked at as a whole - that will in certain cases require schedulers from different garages to work together.

It is exceptionally complex now, as you have to monitor driver hours, integration and keeping a regular interval service - not for the faint hearted!!

Hence my comment that Network Direct V2 is needed in order to grow the business.

thomasj

lxflyer wrote:

Does Clonsilla Road need a higher service level than it has at the moment (that's the unique section of the 39)? I'm not convinced that it does. I'd have thought that the answer on Monday-Friday evenings would be to increase the 39a to every 15 minutes and by doing that you could integrate the 37, 39 and 39a with buses leaving the city centre every 7-8 minutes.

I don't understand why the 39A operates a 15 minute frequency all day Saturday and yet the frequency for after 18.30 on a weekday is 20 minutes? The evening services after 18.30 can get quite packed at the best of times. It's crazy!

LXFlyer

thomasj wrote: »

I don't understand why the 39A operates a 15 minute frequency all day Saturday and yet the frequency for after 18.30 on a weekday is 20 minutes? The evening services after 18.30 can get quite packed at the best of times. It's crazy!

It does need reviewing but it's not alone in that regard. Quite a few routes need higher evening off-peak services.

But that requires more drivers and despite the ongoing recruitment campaign I believe that some depots are experiencing a shortage - whether some of the new recruits have not stayed I don't know?

Saturday would have fewer driver duties and shorter running times - more scope for more trips.

dfx-

lxflyer wrote: »

Does Clonsilla Road need a higher service level than it has at the moment (that's the unique section of the 39)? I'm not convinced that it does. I'd have thought that the answer on Monday-Friday evenings would be to increase the 39a to every 15 minutes and by doing that you could integrate the 37, 39 and 39a with buses leaving the city centre every 7-8 minutes.

But that requires additional buses - we will have to wait and see how the additional fleet capacity this year will be deployed.

As for integrating inbound - it is more difficult to do when routes are of differing length, and taking different routes, and indeed different driving styles. It would take a lot of work to deliver and I'm not convinced that without intermediate timing points that it would work.

However I think that there is (as I mentioned above) a need to become more forensic in terms of planning services so that in addition to individual routes being scheduled with regular clockface off-peak schedules that corridors be looked at as a whole - that will in certain cases require schedulers from different garages to work together.

It is exceptionally complex now, as you have to monitor driver hours, integration and keeping a regular interval service - not for the faint hearted!!

Hence my comment that Network Direct V2 is needed in order to grow the business.

No, but you'd not be trying to serve Clonsilla Rd with the extra 39 departure, you're trying to ease the pressure on the main corridor. Clonsilla Rd does not need a VT to serve the area, but Dawson Street-Huntstown does.

For other route combination - such as the 40 and 13, 27 and 15, 16 and 41s, 4 and 7 etc. - it could be exceptionally difficult as you say and need intermediate points.

Given the 39A is a Network Direct construct - and arguably it is the main success in terms of its blended routes along with the 14 - it's a little bit hard to trust a Network Direct V2 with fixing its integration.

LXFlyer

dfx- wrote: »

No, but you'd not be trying to serve Clonsilla Rd with the extra 39 departure, you're trying to ease the pressure on the main corridor. Clonsilla Rd does not need a VT to serve the area, but Dawson Street-Huntstown does.

For other route combination - such as the 40 and 13, 27 and 15, 16 and 41s, 4 and 7 etc. - it could be exceptionally difficult as you say and need intermediate points.

Given the 39A is a Network Direct construct - and arguably it is the main success in terms of its blended routes along with the 14 - it's a little bit hard to trust a Network Direct V2 with fixing its integration.

Well given that we both agree that Clonsilla Rd doesn't need more than a 30 minute service, the logical choice would be to increase the 39a to every 15 minutes rather than increase the 39, which was my point.

When I use the term Network Direct V2, I'm not referring to another network redesign (except for orbital services), but rather a review of service levels across the network and making an effort to improve corridor integration.

It's not going to be possible to achieve that in every case, but it should be possible to improve it in several areas.

AngryLips

Is network direct complete? All the busses north east out towards Fairview and Clontarf seem to terminate in the city centre around Abbey St ...I though Network direct was meant to eliminate this?

LXFlyer

AngryLips wrote: »

Is network direct complete? All the busses north east out towards Fairview and Clontarf seem to terminate in the city centre around Abbey St ...I though Network direct was meant to eliminate this?

No - not every route needs to be cross-city. There is an acceptance that a limited number of routes will still terminate in the city centre.

What was never completed was the review of orbital services and north county Dublin services.

dfx-

lxflyer wrote: »

Well given that we both agree that Clonsilla Rd doesn't need more than a 30 minute service, the logical choice would be to increase the 39a to every 15 minutes rather than increase the 39, which was my point.

When I use the term Network Direct V2, I'm not referring to another network redesign (except for orbital services), but rather a review of service levels across the network and making an effort to improve corridor integration.

It's not going to be possible to achieve that in every case, but it should be possible to improve it in several areas.

It's much of a muchness. The 39A beyond Huntstown or Baggot St doesn't need a 15 minute service either. The key for the corridor is same time departures, easiest way to do that is cut the 39A to 30 minutes or add a 39 to make a frequency of 20 minutes.

A Network Direct V2 could be different, but why didn't Network Direct 1.0, which created the route, think of the effect such a direct and very popular route would have on the corridor? Surely that falls under its remit of 'network redesign'.

LXFlyer

dfx- wrote: »

It's much of a muchness. The 39A beyond Huntstown or Baggot St doesn't need a 15 minute service either. The key for the corridor is same time departures, easiest way to do that is cut the 39A to 30 minutes or add a 39 to make a frequency of 20 minutes.

A Network Direct V2 could be different, but why didn't Network Direct 1.0, which created the route, think of the effect such a direct and very popular route would have on the corridor? Surely that falls under its remit of 'network redesign'.

It doesn't make sense to increase the evening off-peak 39 frequency to higher than the rest of the day. The buses would be better utilised by increasing the 39a to every 15 minutes in the evenings. The core route on the N3 is the 39a and that would be the route to increase frequency.

To be fair - the changes involved with ND V1 were mammoth. Lack of resources and a lack of RTPI data wouldn't have helped.

It's now much easier to look at corridors with the benefit of that information.