Resident's Association -Naming and Shaming

angeline

A resident's association member calls to each house in estate to pay fees for the maintenance of same in a persistent and ongoing basis. Some houses pay, others don't. They had considered sending out a newsletter to 'name and shame' the non payers. Any views on this.

GerardKeating

angeline wrote: »

A resident's association member calls to each house in estate to pay fees for the maintenance of same in a persistent and ongoing basis. Some houses pay, others don't. They had considered sending out a newsletter to 'name and shame' the non payers. Any views on this.

If the managed to stay 150% factually correct, they might be avoid any defamation issues, but they might have Data Protection issues..

Is they any Statutory element to the "fees", does the estate have a management company ?

Atlantic Dawn

There's no legal basis to fund a residents association, next time they call them them to pfo.

Markcheese

Atlantic Dawn wrote:

There's no legal basis to fund a residents association, next time they call them them to pfo.

And that has what to do with the legality of printing a list of people who havent paid to fund residents association..

DK man

Why not publish a list of all payers thanking them for their important contribution....

Dear resident

We are currently collecting for the maintenance of or common areas.....

We wish to offer a special thanks to the residents who have so far made the important contribution...

1. Ms Pauline Murphy - 12 oak vale
2. Etc....

If you would like to add your name to this list please call to Martin out treasurer...

Thank you

davo10

Op, do you mean the management company?

The contact of sale requires subscriptions to be paid and the MUD Act requires a sinking fund for all management companies.

All property owners are members of the Management Company and are entitled to be kept informed of those property owners who are in arrears. Every AGM has an update on subscription including those who have not paid.

L1011

I would suspect that the data collection/handling/storage processes for 99% of residents associations in the country don't meet standards and it would be very unwise to go attracting attention to them. I wouldn't even consider doing this on the RA I'm involved in.

They're non-statutory as said and your only "powers" are letting the estate go to crap if you rely on the councils one grass cut a summer.

angeline

Sorry, to clarify, this is not a management company at all. It is a residents association and so payments are voluntary. The amount they seek is questionable to say the least and is purely for grass cutting. I have paid the fees every year but so far this year have not but had every intention of doing so. To be honest, I got annoyed at the persistent ringing of my doorbell one evening when I could not answer the door. They called again when I was in the shower and said they'd be back again. Gave the clear impression that they would continue to call.I don't know who these people are but they have kind of irritated me at this stage. Before there was a designated house for each resident to call and pay and I always did this.

jd

davo10 wrote: »

Op, do you mean the management company?

The contact of sale requires subscriptions to be paid and the MUD Act requires a sinking fund for all management companies.

All property owners are members of the Management Company and are entitled to be kept informed of those property owners who are in arrears. Every AGM has an update on subscription including those who have not paid.

You might want to be careful on that one! https://www.dataprotection.ie/viewdoc.asp?DocID=1245

L1011

angeline wrote: »

Sorry, to clarify, this is not a management company at all. It is a residents association and so payments are voluntary. The amount they seek is questionable to say the least and is purely for grass cutting. I have paid the fees every year but so far this year have not but had every intention of doing so. To be honest, I got annoyed at the persistent ringing of my doorbell one evening when I could not answer the door. They called again when I was in the shower and said they'd be back again. Gave the clear impression that they would continue to call.I don't know who these people are but they have kind of irritated me at this stage. Before there was a designated house for each resident to call and pay and I always did this.

If you find the fee high, ask to see the accounts. Some associations charge a high amount due to massive non payment. Mine is quite low due to decent payment rates. Out accounts are verified and available on request

The vicious circle is that the higher the fees are, the less pay

angeline

L1011 wrote: »

If you find the fee high, ask to see the accounts. Some associations charge a high amount due to massive non payment. Mine is quite low due to decent payment rates. Out accounts are verified and available on request

The vicious circle is that the higher the fees are, the less pay

Absolutely. And if more people don't pay, then of course the price increases for those who do and they carry the burden for others. A lot of people find it questionable as there are over 400 houses in the estate and they seek 80 euro per household. The green areas are not that big so a lot of people question where the money is going. Off topic I know.

MadDog76

angeline wrote: »

Absolutely. And if more people don't pay, then of course the price increases for those who do and they carry the burden for others. A lot of people find it questionable as there are over 400 houses in the estate and they seek 80 euro per household. The green areas are not that big so a lot of people question where the money is going. Off topic I know.

Over €32,000 to cut grass!??!!? :eek:

Something isn't right here ..........

Meauldsegosha

angeline wrote: »

Absolutely. And if more people don't pay, then of course the price increases for those who do and they carry the burden for others. A lot of people find it questionable as there are over 400 houses in the estate and they seek 80 euro per household. The green areas are not that big so a lot of people question where the money is going. Off topic I know.

We have 600 houses in our estate and annual contribution to the residents association is €15. Not everyone pays but over the years more people pay when they see the improvement around the area. The money is used for cutting grass (not a huge area), planters and hanging baskets, summer party and Christmas party for the kids. We do get some contributions from local businesses and the odd grant from DCC. We have an AGM and the accounts are available for all attending or on request is unable to attend.

I don't know the legalities of naming and shaming but I imagine it would annoy people and make them less likely to pay.

nuac

Meauldsegosha wrote: »

We have 600 houses in our estate and annual contribution to the residents association is €15. Not everyone pays but over the years more people pay when they see the improvement around the area. The money is used for cutting grass (not a huge area), planters and hanging baskets, summer party and Christmas party for the kids. We do get some contributions from local businesses and the odd grant from DCC. We have an AGM and the accounts are available for all attending or on request is unable to attend.

I don't know the legalities of naming and shaming but I imagine it would annoy people and make them less likely to pay.

I agree. Be very careful about this "naming and shaming " business

angeline

nuac wrote: »

I agree. Be very careful about this "naming and shaming " business

I'm not the one looking to 'name and shame'. I'm not part of the Residents Association at all. I would imagine there would be a breach under the data protection act. We don't have any hanging baskets or parties, they say this is the best quote they can get for grass cutting. Started at 60 euro, then went up. Seems strange that one person here in an estate of 600 houses pays 15 euro for more than we get and we are pestered for 80 euro.......

Atlantic Dawn

Where is your property tax money going?

L1011

Atlantic Dawn wrote: »

Where is your property tax money going?

Councils have never bothered cutting the grass or any other form of non-essential maintenance in housing estates where they don't own the majority of the houses.

Kildare might do one cut a year if there is no RA and they give a derisory 'grant' to the RA that would cover maybe one more.

Paulw

L1011 wrote: »

Councils have never bothered cutting the grass or any other form of non-essential maintenance in housing estates where they don't own the majority of the houses.

That is not true. It may be for some but certainly not all.

The council cuts the grass in our estate. It is done a good few times a year.

You already pay local property tax, so that is supposed to fund local council services, such as cutting the grass. If they don't do it, then start to chase your local councillors.

As for resident's associations, they are totally voluntary. If you don't want to donate, then don't. There is nothing they can do about it. If they want to name/shame, then I'm sure the Data Protection Commissioners will take action.

angeline

Paulw wrote: »

That is not true. It may be for some but certainly not all.

The council cuts the grass in our estate. It is done a good few times a year.

You already pay local property tax, so that is supposed to fund local council services, such as cutting the grass. If they don't do it, then start to chase your local councillors.

As for resident's associations, they are totally voluntary. If you don't want to donate, then don't. There is nothing they can do about it. If they want to name/shame, then I'm sure the Data Protection Commissioners will take action.

The builders of the estate looked after the grass cutting until all houses were sold. The council has never been mentioned as a possibility. The green fees have been in place for years and I have always paid but, gee, to increase it again for just grass cutting.......I pay all my bills, from the TV licence to everything else, not one to shy away from my responsibilties and am conscious that not paying isn't fair to those who do pay. We used to get a newsletter but they say they can't afford that anymore. There isn't even a website. It was when we did get the newsletter that I recall they suggested they were considering 'naming and shaming'. Didn't affect me as I had paid but I'm guessing they realised they couldn't do this.

goz83

I know what you mean OP. Similar situation here. Stopped paying the fee (€20 per year) when the "volunteers" started sending letters with a huge amount of bitching involved and only patting themselves on the back. I don't buy into negative crap like that.

billy few mates

goz83 wrote: »

I know what you mean OP. Similar situation here. Stopped paying the fee (€20 per year) when the "volunteers" started sending letters with a huge amount of bitching involved and only patting themselves on the back. I don't buy into negative crap like that.

I was one of those "volunteers" who gave up many hours of my free time with a small number of other "volunteers" in the thankless pursuit of trying to get people to care about the appearance of their neighbourhood. We had about 200+ units ranging from town houses to five bed detached with really nice green areas for kids to play on. Night after night, weekend after weekend we went round trying to collect enough money to get 10 to 12 cuts a year with a little weeding and spraying, tree trimming and tidying etc and the most we ever got was a contribution from 48% of the houses. All we asked was €25 per house, in the end we had to ask for €50 from those that were willing to pay.
At the doors we were met with a mixture of thanks from people who appreciated our efforts to abuse from those who refused to pay because they felt the council (and even us) should be doing it! We also had a couple of people who genuinely couldn't pay but offered to pay something. The amount of people we met who genuinely believe they shouldn't have to pay for anything was astonishing.
We had AGMs where nobody turned up and AGMs where half the committee of "volunteers" resigned leaving the thankless job to even fewer people.
One year we didn't collect and we let the grass turn to meadow and we were inundated with parents of small children demanding we got the grass cut so their kids could play out in the summer yet those same people had previously refused to contribute towards this.
Lesson learnt, I've lived in residential communities and apartment complexes all over the world where management fees or contributions for the upkeep of communal areas were the norm, they don't work here.

goz83

when the RA do more whinging than volunteering, it's time they pack up and go home. It is indeed a thankless task, but harrassing people, naming and shaming and generally having nothing positive to say will only encourage less people to pay. The year we stopped paying was when one of the "volunteers" called into the house seconds after my wife arrived in from work. The lady was "collecting the overdue fee". This was the first call we were aware of. When my wife said we didn't have it that week (money comes in at end of month), I could hear the huffing sound from the old biddy from the other room before she walked away. The following day, the RA letter was received and it was so negative, it completely turned me off paying fees again. Sure, it's only €20, but the carry-on is ridiculous.....and they don't cop onto why people don't attend the agm. Granted, some dont give a damn, but other just don't like being steeped in negative atmospheres where self back pats are the order of the day for the committee members. Most of them are lovely people, but it gets ruined by a couple of serious grumps who seem to manage communications.

angeline

Agreed. Approach is everything. I always paid but when a stranger comes on to my property and rings my doorbell continuously when I cannot come to the door, then we have already got off to a bad start. Not even sales people do that.

Paulw

billy few mates wrote: »

At the doors we were met with a mixture of thanks from people who appreciated our efforts to abuse from those who refused to pay because they felt the council should be doing it!

Lesson learnt, I've lived in residential communities and apartment complexes all over the world where management fees or contributions for the upkeep of communal areas were the norm, they don't work here.

Well, the council SHOULD be doing it. It is part of their remit, to cut public grass areas.

A management company is a legal entity with the responsibility to cut grass in a communal area.

Two very different things.

Marcusm

Paulw wrote: »

Well, the council SHOULD be doing it. It is part of their remit, to cut public grass areas.

A management company is a legal entity with the responsibility to cut grass in a communal area.

Two very different things.

It's not necessarily part of the council's remit to cut grass in private estates unless they have taken the estate fully in charge. Where they do so, the residents also need to recognise that non residents should then be able to use the council maintained facilities which often is not desired by residents associations. Fundamentally, Irish councils have been poorly funded and even more poorly managed.

billy few mates

Ours was an estate that was supposed to be run by a management company as a planning condition, after much research and lobbying by the "volunteers" and many hours of meetings with council officials they agreed to take the estate in charge with the exception of the maintenance of the communal areas as they do not have a Parks Department with the resources for the amount of work we needed.
This had to be agreed by the majority of the residents so the "volunteers" called around to every single house and explained the options. Needless to say when faced with a management fee of up to €1000 per year or a contribution of €25 per year towards the grass cutting the response was overwhelmingly in favour of option B.
The problem was that once the arrangement was in place nobody wanted to pay anything so it was left to the "volunteers" to call around to each house to try and collect what we could.
We used to send a round a note a couple of weeks in advance of the collection, detailing the costs and stating the dates we would call (all after pay day), we also offered to collect at a more suitable time if necessary and gave the names and numbers of people where you could drop the money round to instead of having people calling at your door.
A few people refused point blank, we crossed them off the list and moved on, a few people gave a portion of the fee, many people said they didn't get the note and asked us to call back, we ended up calling back to the same houses on three occasions and each time the same answer, in the end we gave up.
The 48% of the people who pay, pay happily and without fuss, they paid a lot of money for their houses and want their estate to look it's best, the other 52% couldn't give a ****....

livedadream

weirdly enough this has happen me the past few weeks,

i bought a house my first in a lovely estate/park whatever people call it.
its my first time living in outside of the country,

came home from work one evening to find a page showed int he door, no name, no address just, a member of the residents committee called this evening, the maintenance charge is now due €50. a member will call back in the coming days to collect or you can call on any member of the committee if that is more suitable,

then doesnt list the names and addresses of the members??

is this normal, it was typed but nothing kinda official or anything on it.

its been a month, no ones called to the door i have no problem paying because the place is kept well.
,

but have no way of paying, my neighbours next door are the only ones ive even spoken too, rent (5 eastern European lads) dont know and say they dont pay its the landlords business.

feel a bit morto going to another neighbour saying ive not paid yet and does she know anyone i can pay it too....

NUTLEY BOY

angeline wrote: »

Sorry, to clarify, this is not a management company at all. It is a residents association and so payments are voluntary. SNIP SNIP

There is the core point.

This sounds like an unincorporated association and typical of the older style residents' association and many sports clubs.

I have a similar situation. The resident's association - an unincorporated body -think that they are a management company. Their performance is just as ineptly woeful.

We consciously decided to discontinue membership of the association a few years ago. We had concerns that some of the activities being organised might well fall outside the scope of the public liability insurance, the administration might not be up to scratch (e.g. forgetting to keep the insurance in force) and so on.

The problem that worried us was that if there was a cock-up with the insurance then liability could find it's way to us and all other members personally on the basis that all members of an unincorporated association might find themselves jointly and severally liable for any liabilities incurred on their behalf, just like a sports club.

Imagine that a big liability was incurred and there was no insurance in place. Some members of the residents' association would have no worries as they are so over their heads in mortgage liabilities that the threat of a judgment mortgage would mean nothing. On the other hand, if your title was clear, would you not become a suitable mark for a joint and several judgment ? No thanks.

I take the view in the modern litigious world that you would want to be mad to join a residents' association that is an unincorporated association. This is to be distinguished clearly from the modern management company which is amongst other matters a limited liability residents' association.

Curiously enough we had a visitation the other night from the residents' association looking for the membership subscription yet again. My good lady told them straight that we were not members and did not intend to renew for a complex of legal reasons. They went away and I came out from under the stairs

IMHO OP is not obliged to join if they are just an unincorporated association. If they are going to publish a potentially defamatory document the OP should be able to threaten to sue them as long as she is not a member of that association !

BTW the repeated calling to your door could turn in to effective harassment but I doubt it would be actionable as per S.10 NFOATP Act 1997.

I like the Data Protection point.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

NUTLEY BOY

Fred Swanson wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Exactly right...

L1011

I'd be surprised if most RAs even have any public liability or directors liability cover. Cheap enough if you've 40 years of no claims against you but easily forgotten.

loyatemu

NUTLEY BOY wrote: »

There is the core point.

This sounds like an unincorporated association and typical of the older style residents' association and many sports clubs.

I have a similar situation. The resident's association - an unincorporated body -think that they are a management company. Their performance is just as ineptly woeful.

We consciously decided to discontinue membership of the association a few years ago. We had concerns that some of the activities being organised might well fall outside the scope of the public liability insurance, the administration might not be up to scratch (e.g. forgetting to keep the insurance in force) and so on.

The problem that worried us was that if there was a cock-up with the insurance then liability could find it's way to us and all other members personally on the basis that all members of an unincorporated association might find themselves jointly and severally liable for any liabilities incurred on their behalf, just like a sports club.

Imagine that a big liability was incurred and there was no insurance in place. Some members of the residents' association would have no worries as they are so over their heads in mortgage liabilities that the threat of a judgment mortgage would mean nothing. On the other hand, if your title was clear, would you not become a suitable mark for a joint and several judgment ? No thanks.

I take the view in the modern litigious world that you would want to be mad to join a residents' association that is an unincorporated association. This is to be distinguished clearly from the modern management company which is amongst other matters a limited liability residents' association.

Curiously enough we had a visitation the other night from the residents' association looking for the membership subscription yet again. My good lady told them straight that we were not members and did not intend to renew for a complex of legal reasons. They went away and I came out from under the stairs

IMHO OP is not obliged to join if they are just an unincorporated association. If they are going to publish a potentially defamatory document the OP should be able to threaten to sue them as long as she is not a member of that association !

BTW the repeated calling to your door could turn in to effective harassment but I doubt it would be actionable as per S.10 NFOATP Act 1997.

I like the Data Protection point.

I appreciate society is becoming more litigious but this sounds needlessly paranoid. If the estate has been taken in charge then the public areas are owned by the council and they are liable for them. Whoever is hired to cut the grass should have their own PL insurance. Do you have any examples of where a Residents Association have been successfully sued?

billy few mates

So, half the home owners want to take an active part in contributing to the upkeep of their estate through a voluntary contribution towards the maintenance of the green areas. This gives the kids somewhere nice to play out and maintains the value of their homes (no one wants to live in a shabby looking estate). The other half are quite happy to sit back and let the others pay, all the while reaping the benefits of the contributions of those others.
Welcome to Ireland, it's how we roll....

angeline

Fred Swanson wrote: »

The DPP would be slow to take a case but a garda calling round to them might make them change their behaviour.

I'll tell this person nicely the next time that I shall call to his or her residence to pay the fees due at a time convenient to me, that he or she need not call to my property again.

NUTLEY BOY

loyatemu wrote: »

I appreciate society is becoming more litigious but this sounds needlessly paranoid. If the estate has been taken in charge then the public areas are owned by the council and they are liable for them. Whoever is hired to cut the grass should have their own PL insurance. Do you have any examples of where a Residents Association have been successfully sued?

Paranoid ? We looked on it as prudent foresight to protect a valuable asset from potential legal exposure.

Contractors having their own PL insurance only takes you so far. Their PL insurance will protect their legal interests. I am sure that not every PL policy will provide an indemnity to principals with whom the policyholder is in a contract i.e. the residents' association. Against that, a principal is rarely held vicariously liable for the negligence of an independent contractor who is truly such.

We were not really concerned with the grass cutting scenario. We were more concerned about the range and scope of some of the activities that the residents' association were organising and the potential hazards that might go with them. No, I do not know of any case where a residents' association was sued successfully or otherwise. That does not disturb the principle of unincorporated associations being sued which is something with which I have had a lot of dealings and about which there is a deal of case law. A quick look at McMahon & Binchy might give a useful pointer to the issue.

P. Breathnach

NUTLEY BOY wrote: »

...
I take the view in the modern litigious world that you would want to be mad to join a residents' association that is an unincorporated association. This is to be distinguished clearly from the modern management company which is amongst other matters a limited liability residents' association....

I agree with the first point, but want to suggest a clarification on the second one: an Owner's Management Company does not enjoy limited liability. That said, many of the concerns you might have with a loosely-constituted residents' association do not apply to an OMC because it will have Public Liability insurance.

Stealthfins

Where I live it's a similar scenario to the op's

Shoddy spraying of roundup,poor grass cutting and it's just sub standard landscaping.

They have come to me looking for money,I offered to give them it in installments of 5 Euro a week over 16 weeks but they want it all in one go or nothing.

They didn't bother accepting my offer,so they send out a list of who pays every year.
It's easy to see who doesn't.

Mrs OBumble

An approach for the legally paranoid is to make a voluntary donation to the Residents Association, explicitly stating that they are not members of the association.

Another approach is to offer to do some work in kind instead of contributing cash.

Overall I sense that about 50% of people contribute towards such things, and 50% don't. Aiming to get 100%, or even 80% is probably aiming too high.

angeline

Stealthfins wrote: »

Where I live it's a similar scenario to the op's

Shoddy spraying of roundup,poor grass cutting and it's just sub standard landscaping.

They have come to me looking for money,I offered to give them it in installments of 5 Euro a week over 16 weeks but they want it all in one go or nothing.

They didn't bother accepting my offer,so they send out a list of who pays every year.
It's easy to see who doesn't.

Therefore clearly implying who does not pay. Do they have the right to use data in their possession in this way. I understand that they are merely naming the people who have paid, but is this in itself not an improper use of data. If I was one of the ones who paid, I still would not like this use of my information......

goz83

Law of attraction. The RA letter arrived today. Must be a new writer on board. It wasn't full of negative remarks and was to the point.

Paulw

angeline wrote: »

Therefore clearly implying who does not pay. Do they have the right to use data in their possession in this way. I understand that they are merely naming the people who have paid, but is this in itself not an improper use of data. If I was one of the ones who paid, I still would not like this use of my information......

A quick complaint to the Data Protection Commissioners would sort that out.

Stealthfins

angeline wrote:

Therefore clearly implying who does not pay. Do they have the right to use data in their possession in this way. I understand that they are merely naming the people who have paid, but is this in itself not an improper use of data. If I was one of the ones who paid, I still would not like this use of my information......

I offered to prune some tree's for free,my knowledge and expertise in pruning alone would have been a valuable asset to the estate.
I also offered them bee and butterfly attracted plant's but they weren't interested either.

billy few mates

angeline wrote: »

Therefore clearly implying who does not pay. Do they have the right to use data in their possession in this way. I understand that they are merely naming the people who have paid, but is this in itself not an improper use of data. If I was one of the ones who paid, I still would not like this use of my information......

Paulw wrote: »

A quick complaint to the Data Protection Commissioners would sort that out.

We briefly considered 'naming and shaming' but decided against it, we then had the situation where a number of people who had contributed requested we publish the list of names of those who had paid in the interest of openness and accountability which also would have had the effect of naming and shaming those who hadn't paid, but again we decided not to do this as we didn't feel it would do anything to persuade them to change their stance.
From the dealings I had on the doorstep with some of these people it's fair to say they wouldn't be shamed to appear on a 'name and shame' list, they don't feel they should have to pay for anything and will quite happily sit back and let other people pay for them.
I don't envy anyone involved in a RA, it really is a thankless job....

angeline

billy few mates wrote: »

We briefly considered 'naming and shaming' but decided against it, we then had the situation where a number of people who had contributed requested we publish the list of names of those who had paid in the interest of openness and accountability which also would have had the effect of naming and shaming those who hadn't paid, but again we decided not to do this as we didn't feel it would do anything to persuade them to change their stance.
From the dealings I had on the doorstep with some of these people it's fair to say they wouldn't be shamed to appear on a 'name and shame' list, they don't feel they should have to pay for anything and will quite happily sit back and let other people pay for them.
I don't envy anyone involved in a RA, it really is a thankless job....

Correct. Some people do not care and would not care if they were named and shamed, but as I said in another post, this would be improper use of data. Not always a thankless job, in my estate, the members of the RA who put their names forward re collection of fees were benefiting as their own gardens were being very well maintained by the company who were given the contract to cut the grass.

Markcheese

NUTLEY BOY wrote:

The problem that worried us was that if there was a cock-up with the insurance then liability could find it's way to us and all other members personally on the basis that all members of an unincorporated association might find themselves jointly and severally liable for any liabilities incurred on their behalf, just like a sports club.

Dont join the residents association , but you can still make a donation.
Law suits usually follows ability to pay... chasing someone who's made a donation is a very different affair to pursuing an insurance company either for a landscaping company or residents association..

P. Breathnach

Markcheese wrote: »

Dont join the residents association , but you can still make a donation.
Law suits usually follows ability to pay... chasing someone who's made a donation is a very different affair to pursuing an insurance company either for a landscaping company or residents association..

It's not necessarily as clearcut as that. Many residents' associations are very informally constituted, and don't maintain a membership list. They regard people who make contributions as members.

billy few mates

angeline wrote: »

Correct. Some people do not care and would not care if they were named and shamed, but as I said in another post, this would be improper use of data. Not always a thankless job, in my estate, the members of the RA who put their names forward re collection of fees were benefiting as their own gardens were being very well maintained by the company who were given the contract to cut the grass.

:rolleyes:

This is what you're up against, we heard exactly the same thing on the doorstep, one person told us they were refusing to pay because they said they knew "for a fact" that the smaller houses were subsidising the larger detached houses who were getting their grass cut more often than the area of the estate with the smaller town houses. This was rubbish of course, the contractor did the full estate each visit and the invoices would show this if anyone bothered to turn up to the AGM to see for themselves. Likewise another person suggested he saw the contractor doing extra weed spraying and front gardens of the committee members which again was rubbish.

L1011

I wish they'd do my front garden; I've only had the chance to strim (rather than cut, it was that long) it once since November...