should vets prescribe and supply ,

kerry cow

When a vet comes to a farm , examines you animal and then prescribes antibiotics that he sells , I think it is a big confict of interest ,
I am told that in parts of the country that you can get a veterinary prescription for your store where you keep antibiotics in you store for when they are required to he used and therefore when the vet examines you animal you may have antibiotics on farm , that were purchased from a vets practice or a pharmacy with a prescription ,
Are we been ripped off again on price ?

huey1975

Can you ask that question again in English please?

Base price

OP as far as I am aware the only place that you can purchase antibiotics is directly from your vet. I'm not sure about intramammary tubes as co-ops used to be able to sell them but that may have changed.
I'm sure that Greysides will be able to inform you of the current position.

Capercaillie

Base price wrote: »

OP as far as I am aware the only place that you can purchase antibiotics is directly from your vet. I'm not sure about intramammary tubes as co-ops used to be able to sell them but that may have changed.
I'm sure that Greysides will be able to inform you of the current position.

for intramammary you have to get prescription from vet if buying at Co-op

Odelay

I understood the question no problem. As for vets prescribing expensive meds, I have found them to be sound and would usually tell me where to find the best value medication.

Muckit

I think what OP is saying is why is animal welfare not treated similar to humans.

You have something wrong with you. You go to the doctor. If he deems it necessary that you be medicated he writes you a prescription. He doesn't pull something down off the shelf that he then charges you for.

You go out the door with prescription. You have free choice of where to fill that prescription. Or you are under no pressure to even fill it if you so wish. You could ball it up and throw it in the bin!

kerry cow

Thanks muckit exactly in a nut shell , I have heard that to get a prescription from a vet that has visited your farm on a health check ( once off fee ) , he then will give you your veterinary script requirements based on past use and herd health status and if you shop around with pharmacies that despence veterinary you can for example purchase a bottle for 10 euro versus 15 at a your own vet shop . A little like how your co op work with tubes . How the vets hate competition , they dispise the co op system .

Capercaillie

kerry cow wrote: »

Thanks muckit exactly in a nut shell , I have heard that to get a prescription from a vet that has visited your farm on a health check ( once off fee ) , he then will give you your veterinary script requirements based on past use and herd health status and if you shop around with pharmacies that despence veterinary you can for example purchase a bottle for 10 euro versus 15 at a your own vet shop . A little like how your co op work with tubes . How the vets hate competition , they dispise the co op system .

Damn those vets trying to earn a living.....

waalaa

kerry cow wrote: »

When a vet comes to a farm , examines you animal and then prescribes antibiotics that he sells , I think it is a big confict of interest ,

The vet has already made their money right there, the rest is nikel and dime stuff. Absolutely they make money on medicines but if that suddenly dried up guess what would happen to their call out charges and fees?

kerry cow

Agree, but alot of product is purchased without a vet call , really how many calls per 100 animals ? Compared to your carry out purchases , vet didnt go to university to sell drugs , but to use there skills in diagnosis , the present situation is still a conflict of interest , farmers sometimes consider vets as god and we owe them a favour but remember they need our tests and calls and they do get paid , reminds me of the church in the days gone by .

Genghis Cant

I see what the op is saying but we can buy anything we need cheaper off our local vet than the local coop or pharmacy.
That's not saying they're cheap. I think they're still too dear.

ganmo

there'd be another layer of paperwork for the shops, unless it were to be lumped in with human pharmacies.

btw the coops don't like competition either

J.O. Farmer

ganmo wrote: »

there'd be another layer of paperwork for the shops, unless it were to be lumped in with human pharmacies.

btw the coops don't like competition either

What business likes competition if they can have a monopoly instead.

welton john

kerry cow wrote: »

Thanks muckit exactly in a nut shell , I have heard that to get a prescription from a vet that has visited your farm on a health check ( once off fee ) , he then will give you your veterinary script requirements based on past use and herd health status and if you shop around with pharmacies that despence veterinary you can for example purchase a bottle for 10 euro versus 15 at a your own vet shop . A little like how your co op work with tubes . How the vets hate competition , they dispise the co op system .

vet called here today to check a heifer he treated a few days ago.no charge for the call. he was passing the gate alright but still didnt have to stop. Dont think he'd have done that if i been asking him for scripts and buying elswhere plus he does script in yard and gives medicine at the same time. the nearest town is 8 miles away so impractical for most farmers and lastly i dont mind if he makes a few quid out of it

Bullocks

Depends on what they're charging you . The practice we use have a few different vets working some of them are very reasonable and mightn't charge for a shot at all only the call out charge , one or two would rob you especially the head partner !
But in general I find it handy to be able to get the medicine there and then and to be honest unless I was using a load I don't mind the vets having a mark up , I doubt an animal chemist would be any cheaper unless you were buying in bulk !

kk.man

Slightly off the tread ....A Vet I know who is down to earth said to me one time 'a Vet needs only 5 bottles of different medicine in his vehicle to do his work end of ...no rocket science'

kerry cow

Well I will keep buying away from the vets , keeping costs down helps me make my land repayments, happy days and more acres to be bought , the saved cash will be wanted , I just can't figure farmers out , they pay , yes pay and still feel they owe the vets a favour , are the vets really worried about you , I think they just want your money , all very clownish , farmers need to become business people , it sickens me when us farmers are been branded fools but I wont fall into that category and yes I have done foolish deals in the past but have learned along the way , wake up .
I have veterinary contacts and know the back round opinions of our veterinary friends . The farmer is a clown and they want to sell sell , sell .believe me

Base price

IMO the two most important people in our business are our vet and accountant. We have an excellent working relationship with both and can call on them by phone or personally after hours. It is a mutual relationship of respect and trust that has been built up over the years.

Kovu

kerry cow wrote: »

I have veterinary contacts and know the back round opinions of our veterinary friends . The farmer is a clown and they want to sell sell , sell .believe me

You must have a lock of bad vets around your place so!
Use our local vets here and only a call out charge on the first call, if a revisit is needed it's only the drugs you pay for.
They know their customers and treat them right, have picked up stuff left in a shop or behind a post or wall to save the C/O fee on a Sunday. Had a good bit of dealing with them this year between one thing and another and a couple of them will always ask how such and such an animal got on if they haven't done a follow up call.
Used to go out on call with them for work experience and often heard them say that nothing will tell you more about an animal in five minutes than a good farmer. Saying that though, it's hard to beat a good vet who has a genuine grá and interest in the work, the veterinary knowledge goes into them like a sponge and you can see the effort they put into work in comparison to a person whose heart isn't in the job.

Chris.

kerry cow wrote: »

Well I will keep buying away from the vets , keeping costs down helps me make my land repayments, happy days and more acres to be bought , the saved cash will be wanted , I just can't figure farmers out , they pay , yes pay and still feel they owe the vets a favour , are the vets really worried about you , I think they just want your money , all very clownish , farmers need to become business people , it sickens me when us farmers are been branded fools but I wont fall into that category and yes I have done foolish deals in the past but have learned along the way , wake up .
I have veterinary contacts and know the back round opinions of our veterinary friends . The farmer is a clown and they want to sell sell , sell .believe me

On the flip side... " I just can't figure consumers out, they pay, yes pay and still feel they owe the farmer a favour, are farmers really worried about you, i think farmers just want your money". See what I did there? That thinking can be applied to any business, prouduct and/or service. That's how business works you willingly exchange x amount of product/service for x amount of money. No point bashing anyone in any profession for trying to make a living. At the end of the day that's all any of us are trying to do.

fepper

Kovu wrote: »

You must have a lock of bad vets around your place so!
Use our local vets here and only a call out charge on the first call, if a revisit is needed it's only the drugs you pay for.
They know their customers and treat them right, have picked up stuff left in a shop or behind a post or wall to save the C/O fee on a Sunday. Had a good bit of dealing with them this year between one thing and another and a couple of them will always ask how such and such an animal got on if they haven't done a follow up call.
Used to go out on call with them for work experience and often heard them say that nothing will tell you more about an animal in five minutes than a good farmer. Saying that though, it's hard to beat a good vet who has a genuine grá and interest in the work, the veterinary knowledge goes into them like a sponge and you can see the effort they put into work in comparison to a person whose heart isn't in the job.

My vet charges per call out if he came to the same animal again plus any drugs,only 2 miles away,same family of vets coming here for generations,strictly business,definitely cheaper not to have them in the yard too often

Miname

In fairness to vets it's a good job but it's not an extremely well paid job. If they need to sell products to make up their wages and be able to provide a 24 hr call out service then I say let them charge away. Our vet sells everything from mineral licks to calving jacks the same as most other co ops at the same money or even a little less in some instances.

Sheep breeder

kerry cow wrote: »

Well I will keep buying away from the vets , keeping costs down helps me make my land repayments, happy days and more acres to be bought , the saved cash will be wanted , I just can't figure farmers out , they pay , yes pay and still feel they owe the vets a favour , are the vets really worried about you , I think they just want your money , all very clownish , farmers need to become business people , it sickens me when us farmers are been branded fools but I wont fall into that category and yes I have done foolish deals in the past but have learned along the way , wake up .
I have veterinary contacts and know the back round opinions of our veterinary friends . The farmer is a clown and they want to sell sell , sell .believe me

You say your buying away from the vet,where are you getting the scrip from, you would have signed up a vet for to do the work on your farm when you got your herd number,this vet is to examine the animal before admin a drug and give a scrip.in the sunny south east recently a vet was giving out drugs to everybody and not visiting the farm and all the boys got a penalty under cross compliance after a court case, even top ifa brass and writers in the rag,

If you are saving money from cutting vet costs to buy land etc and have a big vet bill, maybe you need to look at your farming practices and talk to your vet about this which is free of charge for good advice,
If you are buying all product away from your vet and you have to pick up the phone at 4am to calve a mad cow and if I was your vet the phone would ring a few times before I would answer.

krazyklown

Up to a few years ago I worked in a veterinary pharmacy and used to sell POM's (prescription only meds). Most of the time it was usually farmers who couldnt get hold of their vet and urgently needed something. At the time we could legally provide an emergency dispensing on foot of a signed undertaking by the farmer that they would get a prescription within 7 days i think. There were two vets in the area - (both happened to be customers of the pharmacy) - one always supplied a script upon request and the other pretty much refused (in fairness he had a practice just up the street where you could purchase meds but they had limited opening hours).
At the time a vet didnt legally have to inspect an animal in order to provide a prescription. It was a loophole a veterinary wholesaler tried to exploit whereby, for an annual fee, their vet would inspect your farm and thereafter would be able to write prescriptions on demand - so you could walk into the retailer, purchase the med and the retailer chase the wholesaler to provide the script on your behalf (they only targeted the very common meds like pen, pen & strep, etc - stuff a seasoned farmer would know was the proper remedy).
It suited our customers as we were more accessible (long opening hours) and cheaper per bottle. That all said, having come from a farming background, a good vet is always worth his money and its an important relationship for a farmer to build. No more than retailers, there will always be some more greedy than others.

kerry cow

I was just making the piont that it is a conflict of interest . Let the vet do his job and diagnose and charge a fee for what he has done , and yes as a farmer we are allowed have our store of bottle purchased from another supplier once it is all do correctly and above board with scripts written by a vet and despence properly by a pharmacy , the problem here is people try take short cuts and yes they do fall foul of cross compliance , that happens anyone who brakes the law on any front , agreed .
There is a lot of scare mongering out there and a lot of vested interests . Farmers on this blog need to sit down and understand what the regulation allows , but not every one want you to know , yes 99 per cent of vets do a excellent job , I am not taking that away from them but I just simply dont like conflict of interest .
The time is coming soon , whether you like it or not, but vet will not be dispensing drug , fact , not loose talk , and then vets will charge a fee for there services and let them compete among themselves on prices ,
My blog originally stated , is it a conflict of interest , I am not saying vet do a bad job . But that we are paying too much for our drugs and over use of drugs too ,

Bass Reeves

When you look at Veterinary you wonder why kids become vets. It great to be young and foolish. To do Veterinary in Ireland you need over 550 points. With that level of points you can do any other course in the CAO. Over the last 10 years we have a 50/50 a split at least female/male if not higher. On leaving college less and less are becoming involved in agriculture veterinary practice. A lot choose to enter small animal medicine or equine medicine.

It is great for the journal to complain about veterinary cost but they are way lower than doctor call out charges. In surgery's most doctors charge 50/visit and they can do 4-8 visits /hour For private call out's they charge 7-100/visit. Best case scenario for a vet is 2-4/hour and they are on farm calls. I find with a good relationship if you are sure of you diagnosis that they will dispense some product with out a visit, also if you need a medicine on a Sunday or late in the evening as another poster said it may be left somewhere for you.

In farming over the next 10 year I think we are going to have an issue with getting labour support. Less and less vets will choose to provide agriculture services and if they do charges will rocket. More and more dairy farmers are finding that it is harder to get milkers or other labour and if they do you are getting the bottom of the barrell. It is getting easy again to get 15-18 euro/hour elsewhere if you are any good.

A haulier that I have used for the last 6 years jacked it in this year and got a job driving for a quarry. A contractor that did slurry and silage has also jacked it in and got an 8-5 job driving as well. Presuming that just because we will work for nothing that other will also is a risky business.

lenihankevin

This decoupling of prescribing and diagnosing will possibly become law in the EU in the future however in my opinion will this not make it more expensive for farmers...vet visit and examination plus prescription fee plus pharmacists fee. Also are the farmers going to have to call a vet out for the cow with footrot so the vet can legally write a prescription for them?

Bullocks

What are ye paying folks ?bottle of Betamox LA 150mg/ml -€20
Pen and Strep €14
I don't think it's too bad at that and they usually throw in a few syringes and needles with a bottle

kerry cow

Hi bass ,
It always about every body elses living , you never mentioned the bottom of the rump farmer ,
There will always be a service provided hy someone in every field , always happens , did I tell you about the local guy added 2 new 161 lorries to the fleet to draw extra kerry milk and and the new young contractor doing door to doors looking to spread slurry with his big new slurry kit , there are vets in new zealand too , providing health services to a vast spread out country , stop.the scare mongering ,

Bullocks

I actually think doses and minerals and that kinda jazz are the more expensive for what you're getting and we can price around for those .

fepper

kerry cow wrote: »

Hi bass , <br />
It always about every body elses living , you never mentioned the bottom of the rump farmer , <br />
There will always be a service provided hy someone in every field , always happens , did I tell you about the local guy added 2 new 161 lorries to the fleet to draw extra kerry milk and and the new young contractor doing door to doors looking to spread slurry with his big new slurry kit , there are vets in new zealand too , providing health services to a vast spread out country , stop.the scare mongering ,

<br />
Well said

Fuxake

Maybe I'm a bit cranky this morning after been up half the night with a C/Section on an unwanted teenage pregnancy. It never ceases to amaze me how farmers whinge about vets and begrudge them a living when there are an awful lot more parasites that take more for a lot less.

Last night vet arrived at 11 pm; did super efficient section, and then stayed a whole lot longer to drip the calf and do everything possible to get calf going. Left yard around 1.30 am and is on call all day today. This morning mother and calf doing good.

So I was thinking about this vet - top class, highly skilled and teak tough - out all night away from her two young toddlers facing all sorts of hardship and not a whinge out of her. This is someone who got enough points in the leaving to do anything she wanted -lawyer/ engineer/ GP/ accountant/ business exec and in most of these jobs would earn an awful lot more for a lot less hardship.

Instead of begrudging them a margin on vet products be afraid that lots of them get sick of the lifestyle and the begrudgery and get outta large animal practice and get into handier numbers like the Dept or lucrative numbers like dogs and cats. I am a lot more worried about the lack of suitable vets coming through and the ones we have hitting for the greener fields.

What's the point in getting all caught up in "conflict of interest"?

Does anyone believe that if we got rid of vets selling products that those nice people in the pharma companies and the co-ops would suddenly step in to offer us cheaper drugs? As far as I can see, vet practices can sell drugs by utilising staff who are also busy manning the phone lines and doing the red tape around TB etc.

Does anyone think that modern pharmacies with fancy shops selling high margin cosmetics to the beautiful people are going to be bothered with dealing with farmers. Next time you are in a pharmacy being annoyed with questions like "is this paracetamol for you?" ponder whether this person would be much advantage when you have a sick calf? We used have pharmacies where the boss was also a bit of a vet expert and you could get all sorts of helpful advice but those guys are a dying breed.

Also, how would this bright new world work when you call out a vet? Would you have to go to town next day to get all the shots that the vet prescribed instead of getting them there and then from the vet?

For sure, there is a big issue with vet meds cost. But it seems to me that this is more a matter of being fleeced by pharma companies. Maybe more competition in supply outlets could bring down prices a bit. But where do you go at midnight when your vet is gone out of business and your up to your bollix in a hard calving? not much point in calling the pharmacist or co-op then.

rangler1

Bullocks wrote: »

What are ye paying folks ?bottle of Betamox LA 150mg/ml -€20
Pen and Strep €14
I don't think it's too bad at that and they usually throw in a few syringes and needles with a bottle

Promox LA (Same as betamox) €18
Engemycin €18
Paid €9.50 for pen strep two years ago unlikely to have gone up 50% since
Pharmacillin (300mg/ml) €9

Bullocks

rangler1 wrote: »

Promox LA (Same as betamox) €18
Engemycin €18
Paid €9.50 for pen strep two years ago unlikely to have gone up 50% since
Pharmacillin (300mg/ml) €9

What's the Pharmacillin used for ?
The bottle of penstrep before the last one was €11.50 so it crept up in price here anyhow .

Bass Reeves

kerry cow wrote: »

Hi bass ,
It always about every body elses living , you never mentioned the bottom of the rump farmer ,
There will always be a service provided hy someone in every field , always happens , did I tell you about the local guy added 2 new 161 lorries to the fleet to draw extra kerry milk and and the new young contractor doing door to doors looking to spread slurry with his big new slurry kit , there are vets in new zealand too , providing health services to a vast spread out country , stop.the scare mongering ,

The new young tractor jockey with the new kit will be out of business in 2-3 years. Know another large contractor that will be lucky to survive its the 120 cows that they are milking that will maybe save them. Look around at contractors how many are totally dependent on contracting most have other operation s running as well.

Yes there are vets in NZ as well. They do not call out to single cow calvings. Young lad I know working on a farm in OZ was out on the rage one day saw a calf that was rejected by the mother and no sign of her. He loaded him on the quad and bought him back to the yard. Owner explain that the calf was better left to his own devices. However he allowed the young lad to try to save him on his own time. From that on he left those calves to there own devices. In NZ or OZ different attitudes and different costs involved. I say a dairy farmer would be more worried about his cell count that the calf that get peunomia.

Bullocks wrote: »

I actually think doses and minerals and that kinda jazz are the more expensive for what you're getting and we can price around for those .

Totally agree at the end of the year my veterinary bill inc dosing etc is about 10/head 700 euro on 70 bullocks. My ration and fertlizer bill is nearer 10K. I know which I would like to save 10% on neither would make much of a deposit on a 30 acre plot of land and I bought land. Dairy farmers were spoon fed where costs were involved over last 20 years. Most pay 20-40/ton too much for ration and 10-20% too much for other dairy related supplies. A lot buy new tractors every 4-6 years and a nice new disc more maybe as well. As well what about the landcruiser and shiny 14' Ivor Williams box

Good article in last Thursday journal. Dairy farmer that has stopped blanket dry tubing of dairy cows at drying. Now only treats those that are over 150K in cell count. There might be more of a saving there. There is not exactly a choice of vets around and none pass the BMW/Mercedes test.

Bass Reeves

Bullocks wrote: »

What's the Pharmacillin used for ?
The bottle of penstrep before the last one was €11.50 so it crept up in price here anyhow .

I wonder is a lot of the cost related to paper work related to precriptions over last two years.

Bullocks

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I wonder is a lot of the cost related to paper work related to precriptions over last two years.

Could well be , they get rid of the empties and give me a receipt for the blue book _ no charge . They would have two busy girls keeping on top of scripts and what not aswell as another full time just on the phone .

rangler1

Bullocks wrote: »

What's the Pharmacillin used for ?
The bottle of penstrep before the last one was €11.50 so it crept up in price here anyhow .

It's just penicillin, was using it for metritis after lambing, engemycin didn't seem to be as good as it usually is

Capercaillie

Local farmer got a new vet in to do the testing. New vets charges by the hour, big discount in the price. Local farmer also now buying drugs from a large practice (30 miles away) that buys in bulk from N Ireland. A lot cheaper than local vet.

Had a cow calving recently, needed a section. Rang his original vet. That vet said he was too busy and get his new vet. Local farmer said the new vet doesn't do calls. Original vet told local farmer that he has signed over the testing to the new vet and should get his new vet. Farmer pleaded with him. Vet said that he had 5-6 calls to do and had to priortise his own clients and might be able to do the call perhaps in a day or two.

tractorporn

I have to say I'm very happy with our vet. If he's out and we have some of the stuff already he won't prescribe more. I think they provide a great service and in fairness I couldn't see myself calling out the vet to an animal and then having to head back into town (6 miles away) to get the medicines.