Baptism in Roman Catholicism

solodeogloria

Good morning all,

Saw this posted on another thread:

Absolam wrote: »

Do you mean the difference between apostasy and leaving the Church? Apostasy is the total repudiation of the Christian faith, yet remaining a part of the Church. Leaving the Church depends on who you ask, but if you ask the Church it's a nonsensical phrase; the bond of baptism is unbreakable. That bond incorporates one both into Christ and into the Church, whether or not one repudiates the faith, defects, is a heretic, beats up the Pope etc etc; the bond remains and the individual can be reconciled.

Is baptism sufficient for salvation? If someone is a Roman Catholic and they stop believing in Jesus are they still in Christ according to the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church? The terminology in this post is quite complex.

In most branches of Protestantism the thinking in respect to unbelief can go in two ways.
1) People believe and then fall away. People can lose their salvation and may not be in Christ as a result of falling away. This is the Arminian / Wesleyan branch of thought.
2) People are seemingly Christian but if they do not keep going in Christ their faith was not genuine. This is the Calvinist / once saved always saved view. This is referred to as the preserverence of the saints or the P of TULIP.

Let's flesh out what this means together.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

kelly1

Hi Solodeogloria,

the Catholic Church doesn't subscribe the OSAS idea. While baptism does erase the guilt of original sin and bring about a state of grace, mortal sin deprives us this grace by "expelling" the Holy Spirit from our souls. We regain the state of grace through confession and the sacrament of extreme unction (last rites).

We are part of the body of Christ only when we're in a state of grace.

keano_afc

Baptism is the outward display of an inward decision to follow Christ as saviour. It is not essential for salvation.

Don't want to drag the thread off topic, but scripture is clear that once saved is always saved. Nothing can separate us from the love of God.

Absolam

Since mine was the original post quoted, I should point out that I also said

Absolam wrote: »

Now what you consider the term 'being in Christ' means is probably a matter of individual interpretation, so I'd probably stick with what is actually expressed in the Catechism, which is;
"...we become members of Christ, are incorporated into the Church..."
"The anointing with sacred chrism, perfumed oil consecrated by the bishop, signifies the gift of the Holy Spirit to the newly baptized, who has become a Christian, that is, one "anointed" by the Holy Spirit, incorporated into Christ who is anointed priest, prophet, and king"
"Baptism incorporates us into the Church"
"For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by the children of the Catholic Church."
"Incorporated into Christ by Baptism, the person baptized is configured to Christ."
"Incorporated into the Church by Baptism, the faithful have received the sacramental character that consecrates them for Christian religious worship"
"By this very fact the person baptized is incorporated into the Church, the Body of Christ, and made a sharer in the priesthood of Christ."
So you can see, whatever the New Testament may seem to hold to, the Catechism of the Church definitely holds that one is incorporated into Christ and the Church by the sacrament of Baptism, and therefore has a right to be called a Christian.

I think when you consider Solodeglorias phrase " are they still in Christ ", that phrase may not (probably doesn't?) have the same meaning as the phrase "incorporated into Christ" or " incorporated into the Church" as used in the Catechism. I suspect the notion of being 'in Christ' may have more in common with the notion of being 'in communion'?

solodeogloria

Good morning Absolam!

Your post is still confusing!

Are people justified by faith or by baptism?

You seem to make it sound like all baptised people whether they are believing and trusting in Christ or not are Christians.

When I say "in Christ" I mean it in the Ephesians sense. Belonging to Jesus, a part of one body through one faith, in one Lord and one baptism.

I don't think the New Testament says that someone is a Christian by virtue of baptism alone. It is believing and being baptised.

Your post contained extremely technical language without much explanation.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

Absolam

Tricky questions I'm afraid! What exactly do you mean by 'are people justified'? It strikes me as a phrase to which you attach particular significance, but for me in the literal sense I can't see why people would need to be justified; they might need or wish to justify their actions, or beliefs or such but I can't see why they'd need to justify themselves.

If I make it sound like all baptised people whether they are believing and trusting in Christ or not are Christians; according to the Catechism they are entitled to call themselves Christians, and it seems to offer no qualifying requirements, whether as to believing or trusting or anything else?

When you say "in Christ" in the Ephesians sense i.e. belonging to Jesus, a part of one body through one faith, in one Lord and one baptism, do you feel that aligns with what is expressed in the Catechism when it says incorporated into the Church and incorporated into Christ, or do you feel your understanding of what is expressed in Ephesians is a different concept?

That you don't think the New Testament says that someone is a Christian by virtue of baptism alone, that it is believing and being baptised, that is I think at odds with what is specifically expressed in the Catechism. That could reasonably be put down to a difference in understanding between Catholic and Protestant teaching, would you say?

I agree, my post may have contained what could be considered extremely technical language without much explanation; I literally took excerpts from the Catechism which I felt directly expressed the principle effects of the sacrament of Baptism. There are probably volumes that go into great depth of further explanation that I haven't read unfortunately.

solodeogloria

Good afternoon!

Before I can answer those questions I think you need to explain what you quoted from the Catechism in plain English rather than church speak because it isn't clear. I'm not familiar with the Catechism because I've got no experience of Roman Catholicism.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

Absolam

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good afternoon!
Before I can answer those questions I think you need to explain what you quoted from the Catechism in plain English rather than church speak because it isn't clear. I'm not familiar with the Catechism because I've got no experience of Roman Catholicism.

I suspect the Catechism is phrased as it is in order to convey particular (ie specific) meaning; it seems to me what it says is clear, though I agree that people might invest what it says with meaning that's not necessarily intended.
My suggestion would be to read it literally, but if you want exposition you would probably be better served discussing it with a member of the magesterium; I certainly wouldn't consider myself qualified to provide it I'm afraid.

solodeogloria

Good afternoon!

You quoted this to a user on another thread. I'm going to presume that you understand what it means.

It's not reasonable to quote something and avoid explaining it when asked.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

Absolam

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good afternoon!
You quoted this to a user on another thread. I'm going to presume that you understand what it means.
It's not reasonable to quote something and avoid explaining it when asked.

I understand what it says; presuming that I understand what it means is fine as long as you understand that that isn't necessarily what it means to someone else. If you ask for a definitive explanation of what it should mean to everyone, that explanation ought to come from someone qualified to provide it. Which as I've said, is not me.

Nor do I think it's unreasonable to provide the authoritative text regarding something without explaining it when asked; to borrow a phrase, it is that it is, no explanation changes that.

lazybones32

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p2s2c1a1.htm

A portion of Catholic teaching on Baptism.

solodeogloria

Good evening!

Quoting the Catechism isn't an explanation. I'm asking a question to Catholics about baptism.

It'd be nice if someone could answer it for me.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

Absolam

You're not really asking a question about baptism though, you're asking for the Catechism on Baptism to be presented to you in different language to what it is composed of. In fairness that's considerably more than just a question.

solodeogloria

Good morning!

I asked a fairly straightforward question in my OP. The language in the Cathecism is complex and it isn't easy to follow. It seems like it is saying that someone is a Christian irrespective of whether or not they believe if they are baptised. This is inconsistent with the New Testament if true but I can't be sure it is saying that from the text. Hence my question which I hope will be answered.

It's coming across like you don't want to help me understand this which is disappointing. We should be all ready to give a reason for the hope that we have in Christ (1 Peter 3:15)

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

Absolam

solodeogloria wrote: »

I asked a fairly straightforward question in my OP. The language in the Cathecism is complex and it isn't easy to follow. It seems like it is saying that someone is a Christian irrespective of whether or not they believe if they are baptised. This is inconsistent with the New Testament if true but I can't be sure it is saying that from the text. Hence my question which I hope will be answered.

Well, no... the first question you asked in your O/P was "Is baptism sufficient for salvation?". As far as I can see the answer to that question is not stated in the section of the Catechism which sets out Baptism, so it's not that straightforward really.
The second question you asked was " If someone is a Roman Catholic and they stop believing in Jesus are they still in Christ according to the teaching of the Roman Catholic Church?" That section of the Catechism says nothing about being 'in Christ' which is why I asked you 'When you say "in Christ" in the Ephesians sense i.e. belonging to Jesus, a part of one body through one faith, in one Lord and one baptism, do you feel that aligns with what is expressed in the Catechism when it says incorporated into the Church and incorporated into Christ, or do you feel your understanding of what is expressed in Ephesians is a different concept?'

I think maybe you're trying to see if what is expressed in the Catechism aligns with what you think from your own reading. I'd suggest that if a literal reading of what is written doesn't appear to align with what you believe, then it probably doesn't. A conversation with someone who is qualified to provide further exposition than a literal reading i.e. a member of the magesterium, might be able to show you where the concepts intersect, or not, that's a difficult call for me to make, not being one.

If it helps though,as I said, the Catechism appears perfectly clear to me in most regards. 'Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians'. There is no caveat for whether or not they believe; the only faith required is that of the Church itself ('Baptism has been administered to children, for it is a grace and a gift of God that does not presuppose any human merit; children are baptized in the faith of the Church' and 'The faith required for Baptism is not a perfect and mature faith, but a beginning that is called to develop. The catechumen or the godparent is asked: "What do you ask of God's Church?" The response is: "Faith!" For all the baptised, children or adults, faith must grow after Baptism.'). I'm not sure if any of that seems unclear to you?

solodeogloria wrote: »

It's coming across like you don't want to help me understand this which is disappointing. We should be all ready to give a reason for the hope that we have in Christ (1 Peter 3:15)

Think of it more in terms of I wouldn't want to mislead you; the concepts you're expressing don't appear to me to be necessarily what the Catechism expresses and I wouldn't want to lead you into error.

solodeogloria

Good morning!

The quote from the Cathecism doesn't explain justification.

From a Romans point of view justification means saved from the wrath of God through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.

Romans 3:21-26 ESVUK wrote:

But now the righteousness of God has been manifested apart from the law, although the Law and the Prophets bear witness to it— the righteousness of God through faith in Jesus Christ for all who believe. For there is no distinction: for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, and are justified by his grace as a gift, through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, whom God put forward as a propitiation by his blood, to be received by faith. This was to show God's righteousness, because in his divine forbearance he had passed over former sins. It was to show his righteousness at the present time, so that he might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.

Biblically justification and salvation are bound up together. Justification means being made justified by the death of Jesus.

What does justification mean according to the Cathecism if not this?

Please don't be evasive with this question. I want to learn.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

LordSutch

We had a baptism during the service last Sunday, it was lovely to watch, cos its been a few years since I had my last child baptised (so it brought it all back). The Vicar awkwardly held the baby under one arm and anointed its forehead with water from the font, the baby cried, and we all smiled and wished that that the Vicar would hurry up and hand the baby bach to its Mum or Dad, before he dropped it )

What I had forgotten was that the baby is baptised into the Christian Church, and that there was no mention of Christian denomination, which was nice, but I was just wondering, how does that stand with the RC Church in particular? would they accept that child as being a baptised Christian according to their laws? .... And also, what is the wording regarding a RC baptism? is the baby baptised into the Christian Church as per an Anglican baptism, or is the baby baptised specifically into the Church of Rome?

Curious.

Absolam

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good morning!
The quote from the Cathecism doesn't explain justification.
From a Romans point of view justification means saved from the wrath of God through faith in the Lord Jesus Christ.
Biblically justification and salvation are bound up together. Justification means being made justified by the death of Jesus.
What does justification mean according to the Cathecism if not this?
Please don't be evasive with this question. I want to learn.

The quote from the Catechism isn't intended to explain justification. You're offering your understanding of a concept that you call justification from your reading (or the reading of others) of the Bible, which the Catechism can't speak to, can it? I would suggest taking the statement in the Catechism at face value;
The word justified means made just, a more modern rendition of just is right, or more accurately (if less modern) righteous. Why try to graft a concept on, rather that read the word as is?

Absolam

LordSutch, I'm pretty sure the majority of Christian denominations confer a Christian baptism rather than a denominational one; in the Catholic Church Canon Law sets out what is required for a baptism to be licit, but being performed exclusively by the Catholic Church isn't one of the requirements.

lazybones32

solodeogloria wrote: »

... I'm not familiar with the Catechism because I've got no experience of Roman Catholicism.

Which is why I provided a link.

LordSutch wrote: »

What I had forgotten was that the baby is baptised into the Christian Church, and that there was no mention of Christian denomination, which was nice, but I was just wondering, how does that stand with the RC Church in particular? would they accept that child as being a baptised Christian according to their laws? .... And also, what is the wording regarding a RC baptism? is the baby baptised into the Christian Church as per an Anglican baptism, or is the baby baptised specifically into the Church of Rome?

Curious.

If the person has been baptised "In the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit" then the baptism is valid. (either sprinkling or immersion with water is required too...obv)
I think all the main Christian versions of baptism are considered legitimate.

solodeogloria

Absolam wrote: »

The quote from the Catechism isn't intended to explain justification. You're offering your understanding of a concept that you call justification from your reading (or the reading of others) of the Bible, which the Catechism can't speak to, can it? I would suggest taking the statement in the Catechism at face value;
The word justified means made just, a more modern rendition of just is right, or more accurately (if less modern) righteous. Why try to graft a concept on, rather that read the word as is?

Good morning!

When terms are used we need to understand what we mean by them.

According to the New Testament justification is received by faith.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

Absolam

solodeogloria wrote: »

When terms are used we need to understand what we mean by them.
According to the New Testament justification is received by faith.

You mean according to your interpretation of the New Testament. I'm sure you can understand that outside your interpretation, the word has a meaning in the English language which is not determined by Biblical interpretation. Since the Catechism isn't part of the New Testament, I'd suggest you should look at its language in those terms.

solodeogloria

Absolam wrote: »

You mean according to your interpretation of the New Testament. I'm sure you can understand that outside your interpretation, the word has a meaning in the English language which is not determined by Biblical interpretation. Since the Catechism isn't part of the New Testament, I'd suggest you should look at its language in those terms.

Good afternoon!

The words that I quoted are from the Apostle Paul and he says that justification comes by faith. I want to know how the Cathecism works this through with justification by baptism.

I've asked for an answer to my original question and you've declined to help me out which is worrying. If you aren't willing to help me understand the Roman Catholic view on this the thread should be closed.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

Absolam

solodeogloria wrote: »

The words that I quoted are from the Apostle Paul and he says that justification comes by faith. I want to know how the Cathecism works this through with justification by baptism.

You haven't provided a readon for why you think both address the same concept though, whereas I've given you quite a good reason to think they probably don't.

solodeogloria wrote: »

I've asked for an answer to my original question and you've declined to help me out which is worrying. If you aren't willing to help me understand the Roman Catholic view on this the thread should be closed.

That's not true at all! I tried quite hard to help you; you seem to just not want to hear what's being said.

solodeogloria

Absolam wrote: »

You haven't provided a readon for why you think both address the same concept though, whereas I've given you quite a good reason to think they probably don't.

That's not true at all! I tried quite hard to help you; you seem to just not want to hear what's being said.

Good morning!

I asked you to explain what the Cathecism actually means on baptism. I was hoping for a helpful answer apart from go find a canon lawyer! Not withstanding that they are few and far between in the secular post-Protestant country I live in!

I assume that justification in a Christian context must refer to the same thing. If you had offered an explanation we could have discussed that but you have declined to do so which to say the least is disappointing because I expect better both from you and from brothers and sisters in Christ.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

Absolam

solodeogloria wrote: »

I asked you to explain what the Cathecism actually means on baptism. I was hoping for a helpful answer apart from go find a canon lawyer! Not withstanding that they are few and far between in the secular post-Protestant country I live in!

I think that's a very unfair characterisation. You asked for a very large section of the Catechism to be rewritten for you in different words from those used; that's a pretty big ask, especially if your obvious intent is to scrutinise the words being used and attempt to reconcile them with the words you use in your own interpretation of the Bible. If that's what you want to do, then really it is the services of a canon lawyer you're looking for, if you don't want to fall into error.

solodeogloria wrote: »

I assume that justification in a Christian context must refer to the same thing. If you had offered an explanation we could have discussed that but you have declined to do so which to say the least is disappointing because I expect better both from you and from brothers and sisters in Christ.

I think your assumption is simply hubris; why do you imagine a word used in the Catechism must align with a concept you derive from interpretation? I offered an explanation, the same explanation a number of times; that the words used in the Catechism can be read literally, and there is no reason to think they shouldn't. Why is that something which seems so unsatisfactory to you that you need to keep ignoring it?

solodeogloria

Good morning!

My point is that the Cathecism can't be read 'literally' because there are technical terms that aren't explained in it.

Justification is the main one.

I've asked several questions to help understanding which haven't been answered.

I give up.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

Absolam

solodeogloria wrote: »

My point is that the Cathecism can't be read 'literally' because there are technical terms that aren't explained in it. Justification is the main one. I've asked several questions to help understanding which haven't been answered. I give up.

Why can't it be read literally? What basis do you have for thinking the Catechism uses the word justified as a technical term such as you derive from your faith, rather than as its common language usage?

ABC101

In short from a RCC perspective...

1) Baptism is not sufficient on it's own to obtain salvation.

Faith and good works are required. This is different from some other Religions which may / can place a greater emphasis on faith and a less or zero emphasis on "doing good works".

lazybones32

solodeogloria wrote: »

Good morning!

My point is that the Cathecism can't be read 'literally' because there are technical terms that aren't explained in it.

Justification is the main one.

I've asked several questions to help understanding which haven't been answered.

I give up.

Much thanks in the Lord Jesus Christ,
solodeogloria

http://www.vatican.va/archive/ccc_css/archive/catechism/p3s1c3a2.htm

A link on Justification. If understanding the RC view on the matter is what you are actually looking for...

georgieporgy

"If any man would come after me, let him deny himself and take up his cross and follow me"
Most christians will be familiar with this phrase uttered by Our Lord.
It would suggest that something else is required in addition to Faith.