Couple marrying to stay

marypg

Just found out that a couple i know have wed so that the husband can remain living in Ireland. (the wife is Irish)

Their argument is that they had no other choice as he would have been sent home next week.

They have told me that since they are a genuine couple that this is perfectly legal, this is where I have the problem with it.

My thinking is that there is a process each couple has to go through for a reason and that this can't be right, they also think that the husband will get social welfare payments as a dependant of the wife?

Can anyone tell me if what they have done is right or wrong? I'd be thinking that immigration would be onto this quickly?

Phoebas

People choose to expedite or delay getting married for all kinds of reasons.

This is a 'genuine' couple deciding to get married. I'd leave them to it.

tracey turnblad

Als if she's earning he will be means tested and probably won't receive anything.

If they were legally allowed to marry I don't know what business it is of your tbh

ebbsy

As long as they can prove a relationship over two years they should be ok.

Ye gotta do whatever ye have to do. I doubt they will claim benefits as it counts against ye in the citizenship application later.

marypg

They are together less than a year , i just hope this all goes well for them.

Pro Hoc Vice

marypg wrote: »

Just found out that a couple i know have wed so that the husband can remain living in Ireland. (the wife is Irish)

Their argument is that they had no other choice as he would have been sent home next week.

They have told me that since they are a genuine couple that this is perfectly legal, this is where I have the problem with it.

My thinking is that there is a process each couple has to go through for a reason and that this can't be right, they also think that the husband will get social welfare payments as a dependant of the wife?

Can anyone tell me if what they have done is right or wrong? I'd be thinking that immigration would be onto this quickly?

Why is this an issue if they are a genuine couple?

stoplooklisten

marypg wrote: »

They are together less than a year , i just hope this all goes well for them.

It happens more than you think!

marypg

Thanks for the replys from the answers its all legal and good.

jockeyboard

Mind your own business.
What bout people getting married cause woman is pregnant? Or cause one partner is rich or whatever. Dosnt impact you at all.

pajero12

ebbsy wrote: »

As long as they can prove a relationship over two years they should be ok.

Ye gotta do whatever ye have to do. I doubt they will claim benefits as it counts against ye in the citizenship application later.

how does anyone prove that?

Pro Hoc Vice

ebbsy wrote: »

As long as they can prove a relationship over two years they should be ok.

Ye gotta do whatever ye have to do. I doubt they will claim benefits as it counts against ye in the citizenship application later.

You only have to prove a relationship if not married.

Pro Hoc Vice

pajero12 wrote: »

how does anyone prove that?

Living together with bills in both names, photographs taken on holidays together, love letter/emails the evidence of friends and family.

newacc2015

jockeyboard wrote: »

Mind your own business.
What bout people getting married cause woman is pregnant? Or cause one partner is rich or whatever. Dosnt impact you at all.

Except none of those factors are abusing the visa system of the state. All of those concerns are on a personal level. OP's friend married, as the state didn't view them as suitable for getting a visa. Getting married for a visa in many countries is a serious crime

OP AFAIK you can report them to immigration. They will be called in for interview and they will be tested to see if the marriage is legit.

Pro Hoc Vice

newacc2015 wrote: »

Except none of those factors are abusing the visa system of the state. All of those concerns are on a personal level. OP's friend married, as the state didn't view them as suitable for getting a visa. Getting married for a visa in many countries is a serious crime

OP AFAIK you can report them to immigration. They will be called in for interview and they will be tested to see if the marriage is legit.

Firstly getting married in this situation does not get anyone a Visa, a visa is simply a document in a passport allowing a person to enter. Many countries do not need a visa to enter Ireland as a tourist for 90 days.

Marrying a person will allow in the case of an Irish citizen the granting of a "stamp 4" permission such permission will allow the non EU national to reside and work in the state.

A person could legally be in the state for a number of years but arrive to a point where they are being deported. Example a student on "Stamp 2" such permissions usually can only be renewed to a max of 5 years. In such a case a person may have met a Irish or EU citizen and wish to stay.

Since the end of last year a couple can be refused a marriage date if the registrar is of the opinion that the marriage is solely for the purpose of immigration.

A couple who would have married anyway in a few years would not be solely getting married for immigration purposes. There is to the best of my knowledge no crime committed in Ireland in any event.

newacc2015

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

A couple who would have married anyway in a few years would not be solely getting married for immigration purposes. There is to the best of my knowledge no crime committed in Ireland in any event.

If it is so easy to get a visa. Why did this pair marry?

There is a massive difference between someone marrying as their visa has expired and someone marrying as they have been together for 5 years and are moving onto the next step. If you heard your 18 year old neighbour was getting married to her boyfriend of one year. Would you call it the next step and eventual? You would think it is ridiculous and she lacks the knowledge to do it. Likewise marrying someone for a visa after 1 year is short sighted. Most relationships of 1 year eventually end. OP friends is left in a situation where she will have to divorce in a country with some of the most restrictive divorce laws in the world.

seamus

Even if they'd been going out for two weeks, it would be perfectly legal. The only test is whether. They're genuinely in a relationship and by your description they are.

Worth noting however that the right to stay isn't automatic. If his visa is due to expire he will still need to jump through hoops to get it renewed regardless of his marital status.

When that happens its immigration who will decide whether their relationship is genuine so you don't really need to worry about such things.

Speedwell

Oh, ffs. My husband (Irish) and I (American) had to prove to Scotland that we had an established relationship and the correct immigration permissions before they would allow us to marry there. Afterwards, we had to prove to the United States that we had a genuine and subsisting relationship before they would consider allowing us to apply for a green card for him to stay with me longer than 6 months. We've been back in Ireland for just over two years now and there are still mean people in his family wondering if I married him so I could move to Ireland. Seriously?

Pro Hoc Vice

newacc2015 wrote: »

If it is so easy to get a visa. Why did this pair marry?

There is a massive difference between someone marrying as their visa has expired and someone marrying as they have been together for 5 years and are moving onto the next step. If you heard your 18 year old neighbour was getting married to her boyfriend of one year. Would you call it the next step and eventual? You would think it is ridiculous and she lacks the knowledge to do it. Likewise marrying someone for a visa after 1 year is short sighted. Most relationships of 1 year eventually end. OP friends is left in a situation where she will have to divorce in a country with some of the most restrictive divorce laws in the world.

It has nothing to do with a Visa, a person in the country does not need a visa, they may not have a permission to be resident and work which is not granted by a visa it is granted by permission of the minister ie a stamp 2 (student permission) or say stamp 4 which is a full working permission or stamp 1 which is a permission to reside but only work if the person gets a specific work permit.

Once some one is over 17 they can marry it is up to marriage register to decide on the facts to grant a marriage date which can be refused if the person is of the opinion that the marriage is solely to get an immigration advantage.

lollsangel

Their argument is that they had no other choice as he would have been sent home next week.

[/quote]

Do you not need to give 3 months notice to marry?

KingBrian2

Speedwell wrote: »

Oh, ffs. My husband (Irish) and I (American) had to prove to Scotland that we had an established relationship and the correct immigration permissions before they would allow us to marry there. Afterwards, we had to prove to the United States that we had a genuine and subsisting relationship before they would consider allowing us to apply for a green card for him to stay with me longer than 6 months. We've been back in Ireland for just over two years now and there are still mean people in his family wondering if I married him so I could move to Ireland. Seriously?

Yeah the UK and the US have really harsh immigration systems and if your travelling with Irish passports you might still be tarred with the Sinn Féin legacy. Not until very recently was all of the 1916 revolutionaries, Independence struggle and the Bloody Sunday a result of Irish terrorists according to British customs.

Pro Hoc Vice

lollsangel wrote: »

Do you not need to give 3 months notice to marry?

Yes and the request can be refused if the only purpose is to get an immigration advantage.

lollsangel

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

Yes and the request can be refused if the only purpose is to get an immigration advantage.

Just as I thought....op my other half is filipino. We were together 6 months in a long distance relationship when I discovered I was pregnant. At that point had I not been previously married and nor yet divorced we would have walked down the aisle. Fast foward 7 years our twins are almost 7, he has finally gotten around to getting his citizenship. Sométier things move faster than you anticipate, that doesn't mean it's not real.

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Nokia6230i

This appears to be going off on slightly different tangents so forgive me for taking it off on another one please?

X is here illegally. X came here from UK (via Belfast Airport; unsure how X got to London as it was initially from Y outside of the EU; Y may've been a colony of UK previously as it's on Indian Subcontinent so maybe there's some sort of legal understanding/compromise there?).

X is now living here in the Republic since March & working for her "host family" (who happen to be from her own, original country; not sure if any connection here like friends of family or friends of friends from England etc.) doing menial work for them & another couple to survive for bed & board & pocket money but the work is well beneath her qualifications and she's anxious to gain her indiependence.

Also in her culture, husband & children are status symbols and as a woman approaching peak child bearing age she's anxious as one without the other isn't approved of.

For this to happen she is proposing to apply for refugee status/right to remain (obv. we're very strict here; 97-98% refusal rate I think?) by claiming asylum & being put into one of our Gulags/DP Centres for an unknown period of time.

Not sure how many appeals one is allowed if one is refused right to remain but obviously these will be exhausted if possible (funded via F.L.A. presumably) as she is desperate to remain on, regularise/normalise her situation and become an Irish Citizen/Refugee who is entitled to work here in her chosen discipline (IT/Computer Science etc.) and contribute to society legally (she's not on welfare/benefits; though this isn't After Hours so maybe I don't need to clarify that!?).

Does she need to claim asylum to normalise her situation here?

Or can she just find an EU Citizen be he Irish, British, Lithuanian, French etc. who is single & willing to marry her whether with a dowry or not and by virtue of being married to Z then have/having the right to remain here as long as they are married (presumably if a legal separation is sought and/or divorce granted she's back to square one?).

Yes it's, it'd be a marriage of convenience, a sham marriage etc. but that aside does she have to go down the potentially lengthy & lucky bag route of becoming Asylum Seeker and entering into one of our Gulags, our generations Magdalene Laundries or can she avoid it by marrying an Irish/French/Lithuanian man & remain here legally as long as they stay married?

Actual advice can't be given here; but opinions, preferably educated, legal ones are. Thanks.

Speedwell

If she marries an Irish national and she is a citizen of a visa-required country and/or she is in the country illegally, she must make a written application to stay, details here http://www.inis.gov.ie/en/inis/pages/wp07000024 Note that the immigration history is part of the application, and the applicant must provide a detailed history of the relationship and show that it is genuine and the Irish citizen can support her financially.

if she marries an EU citizen who is exercising their right of free movement in Ireland (i.e. they cannot have dual Irish citizenship), then I think a lot of the following thread still applies: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056715407 but you will want to do your own research if you are affected.

stoplooklisten

Is it the UK she's seeking asylum from?

X is here illegally. X came here from UK

Mrs OBumble

Nokia6230i wrote: »

... as she is desperate to remain on, regularise/normalise her situation and become an Irish Citizen/Refugee who is entitled to work here in her chosen discipline (IT/Computer Science etc.) and contribute to society legally

Has she any experience? is there any chance she could get sponsored into a job here? For some developers especially, this is possible.

Nokia6230i

stoplooklisten wrote: »

Is it the UK she's seeking asylum from?

No, it's her country of origin, the country she originally came to the UK from and X, that country, is outside of the EU.

I gather she came to UK illegally then also by such logic...

Nokia6230i

Mrs OBumble wrote: »

Has she any experience? is there any chance she could get sponsored into a job here? For some developers especially, this is possible.

I would presume she has as she's in her early 30s but she's in this country illegally so again the issue of regularising her situation comes into it; a job sponsor would only be for a specified time no?

I.e. 6 Months-1 Year.

She needs residency rather than citizenship & that's why the Asylum Seeker option and/or marriage of convenience have become possibly her only options.

Pro Hoc Vice

Nokia6230i wrote: »

I would presume she has as she's in her early 30s but she's in this country illegally so again the issue of regularising her situation comes into it; a job sponsor would only be for a specified time no?

I.e. 6 Months-1 Year.

She needs residency rather than citizenship & that's why the Asylum Seeker option and/or marriage of convenience have become possibly her only options.

If this is a real situation then this person needs to get real legal advice from a immigration solicitor now, before she makes serous mistakes.

A work permit is for more than 6 months or 1 year and is a residency permission.

Seriously the more than likely outcome of abusing the irish immigration process by misuse of "international protection" or marriage will most likely end in a deportation.

witchgirl26

newacc2015 wrote: »

Most relationships of 1 year eventually end. OP friends is left in a situation where she will have to divorce in a country with some of the most restrictive divorce laws in the world.

I think that's a bit much. My parents married after 9 months of knowing each other & it lasted 32 years until my father's death.

OP if it's a genuine relationship & the they're both adults then why not. Maybe it is moving faster than others for a few extra reasons but who else does it affect? As someone else said, the social welfare payments would be means tested against the couple so could end up being nothing in the end.

Snickers Man

I know a case of a genuine couple, one Irish one non-EU, who were living together for several years. Both were young graduates, Irish one working sporadically throughout recession; foreigner not allowed to but was staying under a specific "not married partner" permit which would eventually expire.

While investigating their options for renewal they were actually ADVISED BY OUR IMMIGRATION SERVICE to get married because it would make things a whole lot easier. So now they are Mr and Mrs happily ever after and both working away contributing to our wonderful multicultural society.

I have no problem, they have no problem, our authorities have no problem. Who has a problem?

Pro Hoc Vice

Snickers Man wrote: »

I know a case of a genuine couple, one Irish one non-EU, who were living together for several years. Both were young graduates, Irish one working sporadically throughout recession; foreigner not allowed to but was staying under a specific "not married partner" permit which would eventually expire.

While investigating their options for renewal they were actually ADVISED BY OUR IMMIGRATION SERVICE to get married because it would make things a whole lot easier. So now they are Mr and Mrs happily ever after and both working away contributing to our wonderful multicultural society.

I have no problem, they have no problem, our authorities have no problem. Who has a problem?

When was that? Defacto partner permission gives all that a married permission would give. Either you got wrong end of the stick or they did or they telling a story.

Speedwell

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

When was that? Defacto partner permission gives all that a married permission would give. Either you got wrong end of the stick or they did or they telling a story.

De facto partner permission requires the submission of more paperwork and evidence, and is available under fewer circumstances. It seems clear to me that it is easier to prove a subsisting relationship to a marriage registrar than to Immigration. It's the choice of the individuals concerned, of course, but the immigration people were probably just recommending a course of action that would change their lives only slightly but could make a big difference to the partner's right to stay.

Pro Hoc Vice

Speedwell wrote: »

De facto partner permission requires the submission of more paperwork and evidence, and is available under fewer circumstances. It seems clear to me that it is easier to prove a subsisting relationship to a marriage registrar than to Immigration. It's the choice of the individuals concerned, of course, but the immigration people were probably just recommending a course of action that would change their lives only slightly but could make a big difference to the partner's right to stay.

But according to the OP permission had been granted. The story as told did not add up for me. Also I have seen a number of refusals in recent weeks by the registrar or in some cases the dragging out of the making of a decision.

imitation

The OP depresses me, plenty of people get married in a year or less, why because one of them is a foreign national is all of a sudden some sort of a scam?

Marriage laws are already very strict in Ireland, Priests for example can be held to account for marriages deemed dodgy.

Likewise in a marriage to a non eu spouse the whole thing is open the scrutiny and can ultimately be denied by immigration anyway. Imagine having the fate of being able to live with your loved one being decided by a government offical. I don't think they are draconian or anything at the moment, but on paper they have a lot of power and your only recourse is a long appeals process.

Why is this even needed? A divorce in Ireland takes years, and somebody who is constantly remarrying shouldn't be hard to detect. Why should genuine couples have to run the gauntlet?

tracey turnblad

I got married to my partner of 16 years ( father of our three children) 4 years ago. He is a British citizen but born in bangladesh. The trouble we had trying to get his birth certificate accepted... We ended up going to Belfast to get married. It's not easy to just rock up and get married in Ireland. You need your paper work...

sareer

Nokia6230i wrote: »

This appears to be going off on slightly different tangents so forgive me for taking it off on another one please?

X is here illegally. X came here from UK (via Belfast Airport; unsure how X got to London as it was initially from Y outside of the EU; Y may've been a colony of UK previously as it's on Indian Subcontinent so maybe there's some sort of legal understanding/compromise there?).

X is now living here in the Republic since March & working for her "host family" (who happen to be from her own, original country; not sure if any connection here like friends of family or friends of friends from England etc.) doing menial work for them & another couple to survive for bed & board & pocket money but the work is well beneath her qualifications and she's anxious to gain her indiependence.

Also in her culture, husband & children are status symbols and as a woman approaching peak child bearing age she's anxious as one without the other isn't approved of.

For this to happen she is proposing to apply for refugee status/right to remain (obv. we're very strict here; 97-98% refusal rate I think?) by claiming asylum & being put into one of our Gulags/DP Centres for an unknown period of time.

Not sure how many appeals one is allowed if one is refused right to remain but obviously these will be exhausted if possible (funded via F.L.A. presumably) as she is desperate to remain on, regularise/normalise her situation and become an Irish Citizen/Refugee who is entitled to work here in her chosen discipline (IT/Computer Science etc.) and contribute to society legally (she's not on welfare/benefits; though this isn't After Hours so maybe I don't need to clarify that!?).

Does she need to claim asylum to normalise her situation here?

Or can she just find an EU Citizen be he Irish, British, Lithuanian, French etc. who is single & willing to marry her whether with a dowry or not and by virtue of being married to Z then have/having the right to remain here as long as they are married (presumably if a legal separation is sought and/or divorce granted she's back to square one?).

Yes it's, it'd be a marriage of convenience, a sham marriage etc. but that aside does she have to go down the potentially lengthy & lucky bag route of becoming Asylum Seeker and entering into one of our Gulags, our generations Magdalene Laundries or can she avoid it by marrying an Irish/French/Lithuanian man & remain here legally as long as they stay married?

Actual advice can't be given here; but opinions, preferably educated, glegal ones are. Thanks.

Asylum on what grounds then?

I also wonder how her South Asian family would feel about a foreigner husband - whom presumably she would not have children with and divorce in Ireland is not a quick deal so getting into a second marriage with another South Asian is not likely either.

If to pick between marrying an Irish or EU citizen for visa, it's better to go for an EU citizen instead as marriage with an Irish spouse can only give you a stamp 4 but with an EU citizen will give you stamp 4 EU Fam which is better. If that's enough to nullify illegal stay, no clue though. The work permit will still take nine months if all goes smooth from the start.

Snickers Man

Pro Hoc Vice wrote: »

When was that? Defacto partner permission gives all that a married permission would give. Either you got wrong end of the stick or they did or they telling a story.

Two or three years ago. As I understand it there was some change in the regulations that would have made renewal of permit problematic and so marriage was recommended.

Also, I believe there was a problem with the non-EU partner being permitted to work while unmarried.

o1s1n

sareer wrote: »

Asylum on what grounds then?

I also wonder how her South Asian family would feel about a foreigner husband - whom presumably she would not have children with and divorce in Ireland is not a quick deal so getting into a second marriage with another South Asian is not likely either.

If to pick between marrying an Irish or EU citizen for visa, it's better to go for an EU citizen instead as marriage with an Irish spouse can only give you a stamp 4 but with an EU citizen will give you stamp 4 EU Fam which is better. If that's enough to nullify illegal stay, no clue though. The work permit will still take nine months if all goes smooth from the start.

If you have a stamp 4 you don't need a work permit.

Sapphire

tracey turnblad wrote: »

I got married to my partner of 16 years ( father of our three children) 4 years ago. He is a British citizen but born in bangladesh. The trouble we had trying to get his birth certificate accepted... We ended up going to Belfast to get married. It's not easy to just rock up and get married in Ireland. You need your paper work...

Not just if you are non-EU either. I'm Irish and so is my partner and we would have the same issue because one of our birth certs is EU. We would have to also provide paperwork, and get the non-Irish birth cert certified properly.

I know a UK born Irish person and a NI born Irish person marrying in Ireland who had the same paperwork. If a birth cert is not in English then it also needs a certified translation. I think they apply to everyone, EU citizen or not.

sareer

o1s1n wrote: »

If you have a stamp 4 you don't need a work permit.

Sorry, to clarify - I meant it takes nine months to get the Stamp 4 EuFam visa which is for five years. You can work on the six months stamp 4 (while the EuFam one is under review) but employers tend to not want to hire anyone on this as it's only for six months. The visa implies the work permit; I should have been more specific.