How make bread with more "air"

armabelle

I have been making great bread at home and it is coming out really well. I tried some white plain bread yesterday and it was alright but i felt that it weighed much more than the bread you would buy at a baker. I guess it was more compact than white bread I purchase. Does anybody know how to make their bread so that you get more volume per cubic centimetre? I let my dough rise twice usually. 1 hour and then 3 hours after taking the air out the first time. I also sometimes keep my dough in the fridge for 3 days when making pizza and have tried bread using this dough. I am tempted to let the bread rise longer the second time or add more yeast but not sure these will help. Any ideas?

Tree

What recipe are you using?

I find that doughs with a high proportion of water work really well for me for fluffy airy loaves. The less water, the tighter the loaf i end up with, and while tasty, it's not super fluffy for sandwiches (Great for toasting).

Don't let it overrise either, it'll only collapse, you want it to be nearly as risen as possible (but not there yet) before you put it (gently) into the oven.

armabelle

Tree wrote: »

What recipe are you using?

I find that doughs with a high proportion of water work really well for me for fluffy airy loaves. The less water, the tighter the loaf i end up with, and while tasty, it's not super fluffy for sandwiches (Great for toasting).

Don't let it overrise either, it'll only collapse, you want it to be nearly as risen as possible (but not there yet) before you put it (gently) into the oven.

I have followed like 4 or 5 recipes and then came out with my own one if that makes sense. Ok so a watery dough yields fluffier bread? I didn't know that. If I add more water however, it gets hard to knead because it is so sticky. Is this a problem for you too?

also, on my second proof (the long one) I usually wait two hours but was thinking of proofing overnight and putting into the oven in the morning. i could put it in a cold room so it doesn't over-ferment. Have you done this before? Fresh bread in the morning is awesome!

Bored_lad

As the poster above has said a higher hydration dough will get you a better rise. Also what type of bread are you trying to make is it a country style loaf or is it a sandwich bread in a loaf tin. Oven spring is also important to get air. If your making a country style loaf you could bake it in a dutch oven which will give you better oven spring or you could place ice cubes in a tray in the bottom of your oven before you put in the bread to create steam. Making sure you oven is fully up to temperature is also important.

Tree

armabelle wrote: »

I have followed like 4 or 5 recipes and then came out with my own one if that makes sense. Ok so a watery dough yields fluffier bread? I didn't know that. If I add more water however, it gets hard to knead because it is so sticky. Is this a problem for you too?

also, on my second proof (the long one) I usually wait two hours but was thinking of proofing overnight and putting into the oven in the morning. i could put it in a cold room so it doesn't over-ferment. Have you done this before? Fresh bread in the morning is awesome!

My doughs are very wet, today had 450g water to 500g flour (plus other bits). They're difficult to work with, they get stirred more than kneaded initially. Then a quick knead and dropped into a tin. Tonight's over prooved, it went about 90min in a hot kitchen and came out of the oven 1cm shorter than it went in. Will crack it open in the morning.

The problem with fresh bread in the morning is that you can't actually slice it till it's gone cold. If you don't let the starches gelatinise you end up mashing the loaf. Grand for rolls, but rubbish for a loaf you want to slice. So we find baking the night before is the best we're gonna get if we want fresh bread for breakfast (we ain't getting up at 5am to have bread ready for 2nd breakfast...)

Tree

Tree wrote: »

My doughs are very wet, today had 450g water to 500g flour (plus other bits). They're difficult to work with, they get stirred more than kneaded initially. Then a quick knead and dropped into a tin. Tonight's over prooved, it went about 90min in a hot kitchen and came out of the oven 1cm shorter than it went in. Will crack it open in the morning.

The problem with fresh bread in the morning is that you can't actually slice it till it's gone cold. If you don't let the starches gelatinise you end up mashing the loaf. Grand for rolls, but rubbish for a loaf you want to slice. So we find baking the night before is the best we're gonna get if we want fresh bread for breakfast (we ain't getting up at 5am to have bread ready for 2nd breakfast...)

Also, i've done the overnight proove in the fridge (give it 30min at room temp while the oven heats) and that gets you nice bread for lunch. The longer prooving at low temp gives much more flavour to the loaf. Also I've done much reduced yeast quantities and longer initial rising, also gives a good range of flavour and more flexibility on when you have to bake your bread/pizza.

armabelle

Tree wrote: »

My doughs are very wet, today had 450g water to 500g flour (plus other bits). They're difficult to work with, they get stirred more than kneaded initially. Then a quick knead and dropped into a tin. Tonight's over prooved, it went about 90min in a hot kitchen and came out of the oven 1cm shorter than it went in. Will crack it open in the morning.

The problem with fresh bread in the morning is that you can't actually slice it till it's gone cold. If you don't let the starches gelatinise you end up mashing the loaf. Grand for rolls, but rubbish for a loaf you want to slice. So we find baking the night before is the best we're gonna get if we want fresh bread for breakfast (we ain't getting up at 5am to have bread ready for 2nd breakfast...)

My loaves are soft but can be cut after they come out the oven. I used to have them crumble but since I switched to live yeast, made a big difference.

I really want to try working with wet dough. I like your description that it get's stirred more than kneaded. Do you use a mixer? I assume this would be necessary if you really want to work with wet doughs because mine just sticks to my hand like crazy.

Look at this video if you get a chance, really great techniques and his dough looks very moist. It is for ciabatta:

http://thebackhomebakery.com/Tutorials/Ciabatta.html

How is it that your bread over-proved in only 90 minutes? My second proof is at least two hours everytime.

armabelle

Tree wrote: »

Also, i've done the overnight proove in the fridge (give it 30min at room temp while the oven heats) and that gets you nice bread for lunch. The longer prooving at low temp gives much more flavour to the loaf. Also I've done much reduced yeast quantities and longer initial rising, also gives a good range of flavour and more flexibility on when you have to bake your bread/pizza.

Do you do you only do one proof if it is an overnighter? I have to do my pizza in the fridge for at least 24 hours. There is just no other way I would do it. I actually tried 3 days in the fridge and loved the flavour. It tasted just like my favourite pizza restaurant.

armabelle

Bored_lad wrote: »

As the poster above has said a higher hydration dough will get you a better rise. Also what type of bread are you trying to make is it a country style loaf or is it a sandwich bread in a loaf tin. Oven spring is also important to get air. If your making a country style loaf you could bake it in a dutch oven which will give you better oven spring or you could place ice cubes in a tray in the bottom of your oven before you put in the bread to create steam. Making sure you oven is fully up to temperature is also important.

I have a water spray and quickly spray my loaves in the first 10 minutes but I am not getting much oven spring in my loaves. Could it be because I need to have more water in the dough?

Tree

I use a sturdy wooden spoon. Don't own a mixer. You'll often find ppl suggest oiling their hands and folding the dough in the bowl, that works too, less of a shoulder work out than the spoon.

Ciabatta is traditionally very wet and pours onto the counter. Dough scrapers are a requirement for it, but they're super handy for everythign else, so get a pair of metal ones.

If i want to put the loaf straight into the oven in the morning, it gets an initial rise at room temp for two hours, then shaped and refrigerated. The initial kneading before shaping is important for development of gluten fibres.

What is your current recipe/temperatures?

armabelle

Tree wrote: »

I use a sturdy wooden spoon. Don't own a mixer. You'll often find ppl suggest oiling their hands and folding the dough in the bowl, that works too, less of a shoulder work out than the spoon.

Ciabatta is traditionally very wet and pours onto the counter. Dough scrapers are a requirement for it, but they're super handy for everythign else, so get a pair of metal ones.

If i want to put the loaf straight into the oven in the morning, it gets an initial rise at room temp for two hours, then shaped and refrigerated. The initial kneading before shaping is important for development of gluten fibres.

What is your current recipe/temperatures?

I use 7 cups of flour to around 25gm of live yeast. Half my flour is strong brown and the other half is 00 white Italian flour. After kneading I rise once for an hour, then deflate the dough and fold or roll into the loaf bread shapes I want. rise again 2 hours and in the oven. All done at room temperature. If the heating is on, the dough rises faster so I guess the times change. I know by eye now how to tell when the time is right to go into the oven.

Tree

How much water are you adding? How much salt?

armabelle

Tree wrote: »

How much water are you adding? How much salt?

I add water until I see the consistency is right. I did measure at first but now I kind of know when it is "right" but I will add more in the next batch and see what happens. Also, I add about a tablespoon of salt and sugar as well to proof the yeast.

Tree

And the yeast seem happy? I usually add my salt to the flour.

Brown bread never seems to get as light for me as white bread either, the last loaf of brown-blended bread barely rose at all (was very tasty coated in butter and jam though).

Definitely try more water, or just put the bowl on the scales next time to see if you can work out how much water you're using. Easier to adjust from there when you know what you're starting with.

armabelle

Tree wrote: »

And the yeast seem happy? I usually add my salt to the flour.

Brown bread never seems to get as light for me as white bread either, the last loaf of brown-blended bread barely rose at all (was very tasty coated in butter and jam though).

Definitely try more water, or just put the bowl on the scales next time to see if you can work out how much water you're using. Easier to adjust from there when you know what you're starting with.

Yes sorry I meant I add the sugar to proof the yeast, the salt goes with the dry ingredients. I also don't usually preheat the oven because I figured that the oven can heat up while the bread rises a little more but I did try preheating the oven last time and the bread does rise more this way. Is this what is known as "oven spring"? I guess it is essential if you want more air in your bread?

Tree

Preheat your oven. Preheat it to 225°C, you can drop the temp after 20mins if you're making a large loaf that'll need longer to cook.

Oven spring is the last bit of expansion before the starches and proteins set in the bread. If the bread overrises and collapses before the high temp causes this setting, then you won't get any benefit of oven spring.

armabelle

Tree wrote: »

Preheat your oven. Preheat it to 225°C, you can drop the temp after 20mins if you're making a large loaf that'll need longer to cook.

Oven spring is the last bit of expansion before the starches and proteins set in the bread. If the bread overrises and collapses before the high temp causes this setting, then you won't get any benefit of oven spring.

At the moment (without preheating) I set my timer for 45 minutes on 130 degrees. Anything above 150 and my loaves burn on outside before cooking well on the inside. I position the loaves on the lowest rail in my oven. Is my oven too strong?

Tree

What size are your loaves? Are they in tins or on a sheet?

My loaf goes into a 2lb loaf tin, bottom rack of an oven at 225°C for 20 min, then open the door briefly to drop temp at set it to 180 for the last 30mins. Sometimes they burn in the toaster but they have a perfect crust for sandwiches. They get left to cool overnight, otherwise the starch hasn't had enough time to gelatinise and the inside is a mess.

Do your "undercooked" loaves turn out ok when you've left them go cold before cutting them open?

armabelle

Tree wrote: »

What size are your loaves? Are they in tins or on a sheet?

My loaf goes into a 2lb loaf tin, bottom rack of an oven at 225°C for 20 min, then open the door briefly to drop temp at set it to 180 for the last 30mins. Sometimes they burn in the toaster but they have a perfect crust for sandwiches. They get left to cool overnight, otherwise the starch hasn't had enough time to gelatinise and the inside is a mess.

Do your "undercooked" loaves turn out ok when you've left them go cold before cutting them open?

They are like these

http://monroviakitchenshop.com/store/images/3948.jpg

They are about 25cm long by around 10cm wide.

I don't like bread to be overcooked on the outside. For them to cook on the inside, I need to maintain a lower temperature than you. Maybe my oven is just stronger? What setting do you use on your oven? I also keep mine on the bottom rack and in 20 min on that temp they would burn. some people put foil on their loaves after about 20 min, might try that.

Tree

I have no idea what you mean by a stronger oven. Maybe put a thermometer in it and see if it's reading right.

I use the oven setting (my landlord put the cheapest oven in the world in here, with a bottom element and an exposed top element) and put it to 225ºC. I usually make my bread from leftover pizza dough, so the oven is hot when the last pizza comes out and the bread goes in. My loaf is a golden colour on the outside with some darkening on top (which i can avoid if i put the lid on my tin (pull man loaf tin, they're great), but my OH likes a dark crust). Whatever browning happens at 225 is all the browning, when it drops to 180 it doesnt develop much more in the way of colour.

Also, my loaf tin is aluminium and isn't dark on the outside. Is your loaf tin dark?

armabelle

Tree wrote: »

I have no idea what you mean by a stronger oven. Maybe put a thermometer in it and see if it's reading right.

I use the oven setting (my landlord put the cheapest oven in the world in here, with a bottom element and an exposed top element) and put it to 225ºC. I usually make my bread from leftover pizza dough, so the oven is hot when the last pizza comes out and the bread goes in. My loaf is a golden colour on the outside with some darkening on top (which i can avoid if i put the lid on my tin (pull man loaf tin, they're great), but my OH likes a dark crust). Whatever browning happens at 225 is all the browning, when it drops to 180 it doesnt develop much more in the way of colour.

Also, my loaf tin is aluminium and isn't dark on the outside. Is your loaf tin dark?

Yes it is pretty dark. I got it at tesco! Your oven seems very different to mine as mine would burn if I followed your time but I will preheat as you said in my next batch