Leaf Economics

peter_dublin

Hi All.

Just a general query to see if someone could help me with it, have an option to take a mates 2011 Leaf off him for 8k as he's heading abroad with work for a few years and he wants a quick sale.

Currently driving a petrol 05 Honda CRV which does about 25mpg, currently it's fitted with a LPG system which I don't use as I have a fuel card which I pay the BIK on at the higher rate. Last year I put 4200 approx of petrol into the jeep.

I'm struggling to understand the BIK system and if changing to a leaf will save me money over continuing to use the fuel card and BIK.

Also would anyone know were to find a comprehensive spec on the 11 leaf.

Thanks
Peter

8k ? that's a bloody good price for a 2nd hand Leaf !

the 2011 is not as efficient as the ones from 2014+ with the heat pump heater and the battery isn't as good.

How many Kms are you driving per year ?

The 1st gen 2011 will most likely have lost some capacity and you might not get more than 60 miles in winter. If you get the leaf spy app and OBD II V 1.5 dongle to connect to the car's diagnostic port it should give you a very good idea about the battery condition.

If you look in the Pic below it will show you some idea of the battery health. But even though it may have 12 capacity bars it doesn't tell you how close you are or not to loosing that first bar, this is where leaf spy comes in.



Here's a pic of the Leaf Spy app data. http://www.electricvehiclewiki.com/Leaf_Spy_Pro

The leaf is ultra cheap to run, get a night meter and a Kwh will cost around 8.4 Cent per Kwh.

20,000 kms using night rate electricity will cost based on my average of 17.5 Kwh/100 kms and including the consumption of the charger itself 323 Euro's. This does not include any day time peak top ups or free public charging. Most charging is done at night.

40,000 kms would cost 646 Euro's.

Maintenance wise, for the warranty period the leaf requires a yearly inspection or 30,000 kms whichever comes first costing about 100 Euro's and this includes a battery report. The only thing required would be a pollen filter. The leaf requires noting else, maybe wipers. Every 2 years or so the brake fluid needs to be changed. Brakes should last a very long time. But it might be worth handing it in once a year or every 30,000 kms for peace of mind.

If you required a battery then the current cost is about 6,500 fitted, which considering a Prius hybrid battery costs 2,500 fitted is a bargain. The Prius battery is about 1 Kwh with 500 watt hrs usable and the Leaf is 24 Kwh with about 21-22 Kwh usable.

The battery in the 2014+ is a lot better and lasts a lot longer. So if you got a new battery fitted then this is what you'd get.

Unfortunately the 30 Kwh battery can not be retrofitted at this time.

peter_dublin

Thanks for the reply. The battery has 12 bars currently that much I know, also has full stars in all sections of the report he showed me. I'm doing min 20k plus a year but as I plan to change jobs the fuel card will go and if my commute increases so will my petrol costs by quite a bit given that only have a 30k round trip commute and spending 4k currently.

sgalvin

Assuming the car is private and all fuel is paid by your employer.

I would have thought that that you have been in effect been give mileage allowance of €4,200. Some which is legitimate business use that you should take tax free st the civil service rates.
If you did 10,000 business km at €0.42/km it is non taxable business mileage for the use of your private car so may not be subject to Bik. but you needs records of business journeys.

Based on petrol at €1.20 that's 3,500 litres per year or 30,000km.

If you can claim mileage separately from the fuel card start using lpg straight away that's an immediate €2,000 in your pocket with no cash up front. My brother is paying 61c/litre at the moment.

On petrol you're spending 14c/km and electricity will cost you 3c/km.
But lpg will be about 8c/km.

Maintenance is near zero and insurance is cheap. Business mileage rate is lower though.

There is tax savings if it meets all your needs but depreciation on 2 cars is expensive.

Your best investment is probably an accountant though!

peter_dublin wrote: »

Hi All.

Just a general query to see if someone could help me with it, have an option to take a mates 2011 Leaf off him for 8k as he's heading abroad with work for a few years and he wants a quick sale.

Currently driving a petrol 05 Honda CRV which does about 25mpg, currently it's fitted with a LPG system which I don't use as I have a fuel card which I pay the BIK on at the higher rate. Last year I put 4200 approx of petrol into the jeep.

I'm struggling to understand the BIK system and if changing to a leaf will save me money over continuing to use the fuel card and BIK.

Also would anyone know were to find a comprehensive spec on the 11 leaf.

Thanks
Peter

peter_dublin

Hi sgalvin.

No it's purely a fuel card as a perk for my own personal usage, there is no business usage of the car at all. From my understanding of it, currently with the fuel card and the cost of LPG given it's slightly more inefficient than petrol by 10%, LPG at 61c from post tax salary at 50% rate or petrol on fuel card at 128 and pay 50% BIK renders the cost of them the same for myself currently. Is this correct ?

Thanks

sgalvin

You are correct with the net cost to yourself being the same possibly 10% higher.

A nice but unusual perk! No chance of a cash alternative?
You may as well full everyone's car for cash as in effect you are getting 1/2 price fuel!

I have a 20,000 km / year personal commute and annual savings for me over a 12 year old 1.8 petrol car.
Fuel €2,000
Repairs €500
Tax €500
Insurance €250
Service €250

I plan to hire a petrol/diesel car when I can't take my wife's car. Hasn't happened yet!

Best of luck

peter_dublin wrote: »

Hi sgalvin.

No it's purely a fuel card as a perk for my own personal usage, there is no business usage of the car at all. From my understanding of it, currently with the fuel card and the cost of LPG given it's slightly more inefficient than petrol by 10%, LPG at 61c from post tax salary at 50% rate or petrol on fuel card at 128 and pay 50% BIK renders the cost of them the same for myself currently. Is this correct ?

Thanks

@100

12 capacity bars and a good report from Nissan can't determine how far you are from loosing the first capacity bar. First bar lost means a 15% drop in capacity.

remember 60 miles or 100 kms @100 kph on a new battery in winter in the Gen I and you'd need to be pretty close to a charge point.

The Gen 1.5 fairs better with the heat pump and the battery is better.

I think you have to loose 3 bars which is about 25% loss before Nissan will replace the battery. The Gen 1.5 2014 would be a much better bet but if you get the Gen I that cheap and it meets your needs for a few years and you need to install a battery in a few years chances are it will cost a lot less than the current 6,500 Euro's + add what you'd save on petrol and maintenance.

BoatMad

The bik on a fuel card will be the grossed up amount as if it was salary , so at present you ate in effect getting fuel at a approx 50 % discount as your tax bill is higher

invara

The two mad fellows know there stuff and are well worth listening to- but if a gen 1 works for you go for it. I bought a gen 1 2011 machine about nine months ago (for €12k) and am very happy with it. I have a 17km commute to work, but often have to do it 3 or 4 times a day with various family commitments and flexi work.

My gen one machine lost a bar a few weeks after I bought it, but it goes for about 125km a day, and I never really bother with public charging or a night time meter (I have not noticed the increase in ESB bills). I have ditched about €4k of running costs for what feels like almost nothing.

invara

invara wrote: »

but it goes for about 125km a day, and I never really bother with public charging or a night time meter (I have not noticed the increase in ESB bills). I have ditched about €4k of running costs for what feels like almost nothing.

Definitely worth getting a night meter with a 120 km a day, perhaps you need to do some topping up during the day but still there are good savings to be made. Why pay a company more than you have to ?

k123456

Deleted UserRegistered User

Yesterday 20:56#8

12 capacity bars and a good report from Nissan can't determine how far you are from loosing the first capacity bar. First bar lost means a 15% drop in capacity.



Hi Mad Lad if we have 12 bars and lose one, the loss would be [font=arial, sans-serif]8.333 % ? .. Or is the loss of the first bar more significant i.e. 15% loss[/font]

Loss of the first bar is unfortunately more significant , about 15% loss.

I stand corrected, there's a chap on the Irish EV Owners Association Facebook Group who is getting a new battery about 190,000 kms for 5,000 Euro's, that's not a bad price considering the prius with it's tiny battery costs 2,500 !

Loosing the first bar doesn't mean the car is useless.

Some people loose the first bar earlier, the person on FB getting a new battery lost his first bar around 120,000 kms while another 2013 (1st Gen) owner lost his about 60,000 kms this is a big difference. Could be due to luck or how the battery is treated.

Loss of the first bar is unfortunately more significant , about 15% loss.

I stand corrected, there's a chap (who owns a first Gen Leaf) on the Irish EV Owners Association Facebook Group who is getting a new battery about 190,000 kms for 5,000 Euro's, that's not a bad price considering the prius with it's tiny battery costs 2,500 !

Loosing the first bar doesn't mean the car is useless.

Some people loose the first bar earlier, the person on FB getting a new battery lost his first bar around 120,000 kms while another 2013 (1st Gen) owner lost his about 60,000 kms this is a big difference. Could be due to luck or how the battery is treated.

k123456

15% is significant all right, I guess it shows the importance of maintaining the batteries

Add in an in-efficient heater, very cold weather ,and the range on MK1 could be significantly depleted

The car could still be more than usable with 85-90 odd kms range. You'd want to be plugged in at that point though I'd say unless you're doing a lot of town driving then you might even get more.

If I lost 20% I'd have plenty of range, about 80 kms to get me to work and back each way, I am fortunate enough to have work charging but I'd expect not to loose my first bar until well after 160,000 kms on the MK 1.5 battery. Though I won't have the car at that point, I expect not to have it after 90-100 kms. But with the work charger it would serve me many years. And shallower cycles are much better on the battery. I hardly go below 30% to and from work and I drive pretty hard. And sometimes if I drive a lot easier after Night shift for instance I get home with 40-50% remaining. About 135 kms total or about 140 if I go the motorway the whole way there and back.

When I know I don't need to use the car when I'm off shift I leave it sitting with about 40% battery and this still has plenty for running about. It's easier on the battery stored at this charge %. If I know I need a bit more range I might charge to 60%, I know pretty much what time gets me to what % roughly.

I have the 6.6 Kw charger which is dead handy for top ups when out and about too and means trips to the fast chargers are rare. Get back to a car with enough charge and drive off.

pheasant tail

Just 2 quick questions for ye. Is the 4000 scrappage deal likely to be back in the near future? And what are the chance if a 40kw leaf available for 2017, like what time of the year was it last year that Nissan announced the upgrade to 30kw? Cheers

pheasant tail

pheasant tail wrote: »

Just 2 quick questions for ye. Is the 4000 scrappage deal likely to be back in the near future? And what are the chance if a 40kw leaf available for 2017, like what time of the year was it last year that Nissan announced the upgrade to 30kw? Cheers

I don't know about the scrappage, but it's anyone's guess whether a 40 Kwh would be available in 2017, Something like that would be announced at the end of the Summer. There is certainly no hint of it as yet. Not even speculation of a 40 Kwh.

BoatMad

pheasant tail wrote: »

Just 2 quick questions for ye. Is the 4000 scrappage deal likely to be back in the near future? And what are the chance if a 40kw leaf available for 2017, like what time of the year was it last year that Nissan announced the upgrade to 30kw? Cheers

my contact in nissan , mentioned anecdotally to me, that he expected the next t Leaf to be 40 or 45 kw, but no mentioned of when. I dont think you'll see any announcement this year for MY2017 but I suspect the 24Kw battery will be withdrawn and the 30kw will be the entry level within 18 months

Nissan are currently deciding what options to offer as a sales incentive, but its usually aimed at the last quarter of the year

like all technology , dont wait for " whats around the corner ", as you'll always be waiting, buy now , if its suits your needs or if not, dont buy

cros13

From what I heard the original plan was to launch Q2/Q3 next year. The latest news was the team working on the new Leaf were under pressure to accelerate things. No idea if they have managed to do that though....

There's no way in hell Nissan are going to fall behind, Leaf II will be available to order by the end of 2017 as planned, I'd even bet on it.

They have said publicly that they might odder multiple battery options and I think this is a good idea, 60 Kwh won't be cheap.

I would love to see the current leaf get a facelift and be renamed and continue to be sold a lot cheaper if they could do this it would be a good idea then they don't have to go to the R&D expense.

Nissan have hinted they'd have an electric option for their entire fleet in 2020, that would be excellent.

If they can sell a 40 Kwh for the current 24 Kwh this would be really great. Or even for the cost of the 30 Kwh but they need to get the cost down fast and build a 15K EV with a real 100 miles would be a good start.

The problem is that the more expensive the leaf and electrics in general get the more VRT that will be applied making it even more expensive. So the Government need to pushed to have electrics completely exempt from VRT !

BoatMad

The current Leaf has no doubt a market price ceiling, so nissan will have a quandary on how to price leafs with large expensive batteries

if you offer the larger battery at a low adder, you undermine lower spec options and trash residuals, no car company wants that

if you have a significant adder, you take the total price of the car outside its market segment


I suspect nissan will play tag with the I3 and what not and release a face lift and a 40-45kw battery next that is a price premium over the 30kw, and the 30 kw will become the base battery

No there's too much rumour that a brand new model is coming in 2018 from Nissan Motor CO themselves.

A facelift of the current Leaf but renamed would be a good idea and keep selling it as a cheaper model even with the 24 Kwh as a cheaper option.

Leaf is Nissan's flagship EV and it's getting too old for a facelift, they need to seriously update it to compete. Interior quality is also way behind other models including their own current fleet.

I've been thinking on whether I'd opt for a 60 Kwh EV at all but the likes of Tesla are not giving a choice, neither is GM with the Ampera-E , which we don't even know whether Opel Ireland imports it or not. Currently the said they are not interested.

So if Tesla can sell for 35 USD it's going to be pretty difficult for Nissan to compete with that, the only thing being Nissan will get Leaf II out a good bit before Tesla but not GM, as things stand now the Ampera-E will be available first all 60 Kwh. But more expensive than the Tesla so this is a good indicator the price range of what a 60 Kwh Leaf could end up costing.

Nissan really need to spice up the Leaf, 104 HP in a car that costs 35K and maybe more when the Bolt is 200 Hp and the Model 3 probably 250+ HP just won't appeal to many if the price approaches the faster models with much the same range.

If they have multiple battery options maybe they can have different power options also like 104 HP for a 30 + 40 Kwh and 200+ Hp for anything over 50 Kwh because the larger battery will naturally allow for much higher current draw.

BoatMad

[Deleted User] wrote: »

No there's too much rumour that a brand new model is coming in 2018 from Nissan Motor CO themselves.

A facelift of the current Leaf but renamed would be a good idea and keep selling it as a cheaper model even with the 24 Kwh as a cheaper option.

Leaf is Nissan's flagship EV and it's getting too old for a facelift, they need to seriously update it to compete. Interior quality is also way behind other models including their own current fleet.

I've been thinking on whether I'd opt for a 60 Kwh EV at all but the likes of Tesla are not giving a choice, neither is GM with the Ampera-E , which we don't even know whether Opel Ireland imports it or not. Currently the said they are not interested.

So if Tesla can sell for 35 USD it's going to be pretty difficult for Nissan to compete with that, the only thing being Nissan will get Leaf II out a good bit before Tesla but not GM, as things stand now the Ampera-E will be available first all 60 Kwh. But more expensive than the Tesla so this is a good indicator the price range of what a 60 Kwh Leaf could end up costing.

Nissan really need to spice up the Leaf, 104 HP in a car that costs 35K and maybe more when the Bolt is 200 Hp and the Model 3 probably 250+ HP just won't appeal to many if the price approaches the faster models with much the same range.

If they have multiple battery options maybe they can have different power options also like 104 HP for a 30 + 40 Kwh and 200+ Hp for anything over 50 Kwh because the larger battery will naturally allow for much higher current draw.

35 k dollars is the entry level model 3 which by all accounts will have a less then 60 kWh battery ( http://www.theweek.co.uk/tesla-model-3/70320/tesla-model-3-prices-specs-and-ludicrous-mode-confirmed )

So exactly how Nissan will compete with tesla remains to be seen , as does teslas ability to actually produce a 35k dollar car and not loose it's shirt.

We all agree the leaf needs a facelift , whatever extent that means

As for power I see less justification, the car is designed as a middle range " small family car ". Arguably it meets that goal. It's had a typical performance of a low end diesel ( albeit with far better low down performance )

My own view is that Nissan will add to its EV range and I suspect a crossover based on the quahai might be introduced.


Nissan shouldn't try to compete with tesla on performance , it will have to position it's price point under tesla however

I do not expect the my2018 leaf to be 60 kwh

Nissan should have a greater range of models and power options.

If the Leaf II or whatever approaches the cost of a car that gets from 0-60 MPH in less than 6 seconds then they are in trouble , the Leaf would no longer be in the price bracket of a normal hatch and can't be expected to have less quality / performance and equipment.

The Ampera-E is due to cost 37K USD for 60 Kwh and have 200 HP, this would be really good performance from an electric motor V the Leafs 104 HP.

Nissan may have to sacrifice Kwh for lower cost which will then make it less attractive. But still more affordable so multiple battery options would be the best way forward.

I bet very few people would buy an ev with more than 50 Kwh, unless it was very cheap. I doubt very much if given the option that they would choose to pay a lot more for range they rarely need.

BoatMad

Range and power and more models , that argument can be applied to any EV company

It will happen in tandem with rising takup, such take-up has to artificially energised and accelerated by state subsidies( and regulation) , otherwise it will not occur

I see no point in making a leaf into a cheap mans Tesla ( or even a dear mans Tesla)

The leaf is designed to be a sedate family car. It's has more then enough get up and go for its intended market segment

We need to be very careful in comparing " not yet launched " model specs and supposed pricing with an existing and established model.

Yes , it's clear Nissan need a multi model EV strategy and I suspect we will see one soon enough

Nissan can make Leaf II with twice, or three times the capacity and keep it at the same 0-100 kph by increasing torque due to the extra weight but then this would naturally require more power anyway.

I think if Leaf II with the same range as the Model 3 costs nearly the same then they will be in trouble because I am sure people will still buy the Leaf but many won't, us current leaf drivers probably will have no choice because the Model 3 won't be available by the time our lease is up so maybe Nissan will have that advantage for a while.

If Nissan have a cheaper 40-50 Kwh then this would go in their favour.

Anyway we can speculate for the next year, I'm sure Leaf II will be announced Q 3 2017. Exciting times.

Water John

I'm sure there will be room for lots of makes.
EV's will be a small but very expanding segment of a very huge overall car market for a good number of years.

BoatMad

Water John wrote: »

I'm sure there will be room for lots of makes.
EV's will be a small but very expanding segment of a very huge overall car market for a good number of years.

the evidence in Norway is that with the proper initiatives , EVs can be a considerable segment of the private car market , even with todays EV technology

BoatMad

Deleted User wrote: »

Nissan can make Leaf II with twice, or three times the capacity and keep it at the same 0-100 kph by increasing torque due to the extra weight but then this would naturally require more power anyway.

I think if Leaf II with the same range as the Model 3 costs nearly the same then they will be in trouble because I am sure people will still buy the Leaf but many won't, us current leaf drivers probably will have no choice because the Model 3 won't be available by the time our lease is up so maybe Nissan will have that advantage for a while.

If Nissan have a cheaper 40-50 Kwh then this would go in their favour.

Anyway we can speculate for the next year, I'm sure Leaf II will be announced Q 3 2017. Exciting times.

Yes I think the Model 3 will bear heavily on all mid spec EVs, The key will be differentiate your offering from Tesla, either by filling a niche below or above its range . equally competing head on is also practical ,but Nissan is a pedestrian brand and therefore its Model 3 competitor would have to outshine Teslas to gain traction