Options for dispute with landlord

Sebastian Dangerfield

We moved out of our apartment recently. 6 weeks on, the deposit still hasnt been repaid. We are dealing with a letting agent (I use the term loosely, an individual rather than a firm) - he seems to be nothing more than a go between.

After weeks of chasing it up and being told that the owner rather than the letting agent had our deposit, and it would be paid in due course, we were informed last week that a chunk of our deposit was being withheld for professional cleaning. We have issues with this on a few fronts: i) the place was gutted after we left. We were instructed to clean certain items (fridge, cooker etc) which we did, but the place was being refloored, redecorated and refurnished after we left. We spent numerous hours cleaning it in its old state, and dont think we should be stuck with a bill for anything done after the decoration, done after our lease ended. It was clean in the state in which we rented it. ii) the agent avoided several requests to do a formal handback to assess the apartment, and in the end insisted that we leave the keys in the mailbox, so we had no chance to even discuss the state it was handed back. Only last week, 5 weeks after we moved out, was a deduction referenced, we were told initially the deposit would be paid after the easter break iii) we have been sent pictures of what apparently needed professional cleaning. In all cases but one, which is dust on a lampshade, the "after" picture involves a repair such as fresh grouting, rather than cleaning.

We have two issues. Firstly the non disputed amount still has not been repaid, despite assurances it would be week after week. Secondly, we are trying to resolve the disputed amount, but despite repeated requests the agent is refusing to provide the owners address or the prtb ref number, though I think they may have not registered the tenancy. I checked the PRTB website and a number of apartments in the block are listed, but ours isnt. The landlords name is on our lease, with the address as c/o the apartment.

Can anyone advise of our options please? If the tenancy was not registered, who can we take a dispute to? If it was, can the owner refuse to provide their details? I would have thought not. Is this something that can be handled vis the small claims court?

Thanks

Paulw

Sebastian Dangerfield wrote: »

Can anyone advise of our options please? If the tenancy was not registered, who can we take a dispute to? If it was, can the owner refuse to provide their details? I would have thought not. Is this something that can be handled vis the small claims court?

Small Claims Court will not deal with tenancy issues.

The place to lodge a complaint is with the PRTB. They will deal with any issues. Contact them and see what is required.

Baby01032012

Hi OP,

Have you photos of state of place when you were leaving, dated. Just to prove that you handed it back in state you received it in. Why I ask is, if you take a case to prtb, if you have this then no doubt about state of place when you left.
Have you received reason why they think professional cleaning was needed? Just to check, make sure this wasn't part of your tenancy agreement to professionally clean apartment.
Have they provided receipt for the professional cleaning, if not, request this. Very strange that they would clean if they were refurbishing to the extent that you described.

Whether tenancy was registered or not, this does not affect your right to take a case to prtb for withholding of deposit. You only need address of property, agent name maybe also. Make sure you keep copy of all correspondence you had with agent. I would open case straight away as it may take time before it is heard.

Advise agent you will take case to prtb if full deposit is not returned by a certain date. Or for him to provide receipt as mentioned above.

If this is a property letting agent running a property service he should be registered with PSRA. Can search their website to see if member. He should also be displaying his PSRA no. On his company letterhead etc. of course he may be a middle man or friend of the landlord as you mentioned which is perfectly fine. However if he is registered with PSRA I would report his conduct. If he is not and operating a property business he should be reported for not being registered.

tuisginideach

If the tenancy was registered, you would have received a letter in your name directly to the apartment, probably within a few weeks/months of moving in.

theteal

Paulw wrote: »

Small Claims Court will not deal with tenancy issues.

The place to lodge a complaint is with the PRTB. They will deal with any issues. Contact them and see what is required.

On the contrary, apparently the SCC now does do tenancy issues - I was educated of this very point by another boardsie only a few weeks ago

Either way, PRTB would be first port of call

EDIT - ignore above, I got a bit ahead of myself, different issue

Sebastian Dangerfield

Thanks all for the replies. Its very frustrating - the agent is the only one we can deal with, but they fob us off with "he owner isnt answering me" then seemingly hope we give up and forget about it. Its not possible to have a discussion with anyone.

No receipt has been shown for the cleaning. As I mentioned, there was a dusty light fitting which we missed admittedly. Other than that we were shown a picture of a "dirty" toilet seat. It was scrubbed but must be at least 10 years old, and the plastic has faded in colour - thats whats shown in the picture. The "after" picture, after the supposed clean, shows the toilet without a seat! Theres a picture of dark sealant along the shower tray, then the after picture shows fresh silicone / sealant. Surely thats a repair of wear and tear, rather than cleaning? Theres a picture of the bed pulled out and some dust on the carpet underneath where the headboard was. We hoovered it but must have missed that bit, but we arranged to let the carpet fitter in to rip out all the carpets - we know it wasnt cleaned. We werent there for the last week (but paid obviously) - the tank in the attic leaked, ruined the carpets and ceiling and absolutely stank the place out. It smelt so bad Id go as far to say it was uninhabitable. That aside, it was a dump when we moved in and that is acknowledged in correspondence with the agent, though not stated as fact anywhere. There is no reference to professional cleaning in the lease.

Im happy to pay any reasonable fees but to be fobbed off for weeks with no means to have a discussion makes me want to pursue this. My feeling from dealings to date are that the letting is not being declared, it all has an "under the table" feel to it, as does the agent. I didnt think i could go to the PRTB if they hadnt registered the tenancy, or if I didnt have the landlords own address. However if I can, thats where ill try first.

Cheers

MarkAnthony

Let the agent know you're going to the PRTB. The agent is likely to know that to LL will be fined for not registering the tenancy. That might move things along.

If not the PRTB is definitely your first port of call. It doesn't matter if the tenancy wasn't registered. To have that requirement would defeat the purpose of the organisation. The only issue you have is serving papers, I suggest that could be the agent's address if that's the only one given but ensure you take proper advice on that. Errors on service (of paperwork) are sometimes fatal to a case, I don't know how strict the PRTB are.

endacl

Are you 100% sure the landlord and letting agent are two separate people?

Paulw

Sebastian Dangerfield wrote: »

I didnt think i could go to the PRTB if they hadnt registered the tenancy, or if I didnt have the landlords own address. However if I can, thats where ill try first.

You can always go to the PRTB. If the landlord didn't register, that does not impact on your ability as a tenant to lodge a complaint.

In fact, they can fine the landlord for not registering, on top of your complaint.

They will help you put together the information you need to lodge a case. Give them a call.

Clampdown

Ah, the old 'professional cleaning'. Anyone who's rented a few times will likely have had this excuse for landlord's helping themselves to a security deposit.

Make a complaint to the PRTB, you can do it online for 15.00.

This kind of carry on is why even good tenants know that you're usually a fool to pay your last months rent instead of just telling the LL to keep the deposit in lieu. Until we get a proper 3rd party escrow system in place for deposits there is nothing tenants can do to stop landlord's treating this money like their own.

They never get the place cleaned, they flip it to the next sucker exactly as they found it, because quite often the previous tenant cleaned it, naively thinking it would ensure return of their depost.

Shelga

:eek: Can't believe they can do that. You have my sympathy, OP.

Ireland definitely needs third-party deposit protection agencies a la UK. In my first house share there the agency tried to keep £1400 of a £1500 deposit for 'cleaning costs', which we of course disputed and received back something like £1310. Off topic, but is there anywhere Irish people can campaign to have such a system put in place, aside from local TDs?

PRTB is your best bet as others have said, hopefully they side with you.

tuisginideach

Clampdown wrote: »

Ah, the old 'professional cleaning'. Anyone who's rented a few times will likely have had this excuse for landlord's helping themselves to a security deposit.

.....

They never get the place cleaned, they flip it to the next sucker exactly as they found it, because quite often the previous tenant cleaned it, naively thinking it would ensure return of their depost.

Untrue untrue untrue .... I have had to replace the toilet, carpets, doors etc following the tenancy of IT workers from a global company - the deposit didn't even cover the toilet and plumber bill!

Apart from one occasion when the tenants actually did get professional cleaners in themselves, I put in professional cleaners at my own expense before every new tenancy.

El_Duderino 09

Not to get too machiavellian about it but here's another potential solution. They have tried to bully you into giving up your deposit they are probably hoping you will settle for half or quarter of the deposit. So what's wrong with trying to do the same yourself?

Ring the estate agent. Tell him to relax about calling the landlord. You have decided to go the prtb route. You couldn't find his name on the prtb registrations so you're confident that you will get your full deposit back and the LL will likely be fined fir not registering (assuming revenue aren't interested in his case). You're willing to wait for the law to take it's course. You're also looking onto the possibility of taking a case against the estate agent for his role in the whole affair, assuming that he is registered with the appropriate body.

Tell the estate agent that if he does happen to get in touch with the LL (and I suspect he will), you will accept 120% of the deposit amount in 10 days of today or the case is going the legal route. There's a great chance they will call you back and offer you the full deposit back in the next couple of days

Michael D Not Higgins

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

So what's wrong with trying to do the same yourself?

That is, at best, a grey area and at worst, illegal. Whether the agent or landlord are acting in a certain way does not entitle you to act in a similar way.

Baby01032012

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Not to get too machiavellian about it but here's another potential solution. They have tried to bully you into giving up your deposit they are probably hoping you will settle for half or quarter of the deposit. So what's wrong with trying to do the same yourself?

Ring the estate agent. Tell him to relax about calling the landlord. You have decided to go the prtb route. You couldn't find his name on the prtb registrations so you're confident that you will get your full deposit back and the LL will likely be fined fir not registering (assuming revenue aren't interested in his case). You're willing to wait for the law to take it's course. You're also looking onto the possibility of taking a case against the estate agent for his role in the whole affair, assuming that he is registered with the appropriate body.

Tell the estate agent that if he does happen to get in touch with the LL (and I suspect he will), you will accept 120% of the deposit amount in 10 days of today or the case is going the legal route. There's a great chance they will call you back and offer you the full deposit back in the next couple of days

The above - blackmail - I wouldn't recommend. He is not entitled to 120% I'd stick to the facts and kindly advise if you will go to prtb but don't hold him over a barrel because he may or may not be registered which is of no concern of the tenants.

Sebastian Dangerfield

We finally got the non-disputed amount this morning. They keep avoiding our questions about the rest so we have very clearly stated our issues, and said that we will be writing a complaint to the PRTB on friday morning if they do not come to a satistactory resolution before then.

El_Duderino 09

Michael D Not Higgins wrote:

That is, at best, a grey area and at worst, illegal. Whether the agent or landlord are acting in a certain way does not entitle you to act in a similar way.

Yes it is a grey area. So no point messing around. The LL has returned the undisputed amount t and is trying to con the OP out if the rest of their deposit.fight fire with fire.

Baby01032012 wrote:

The above - blackmail - I wouldn't recommend. He is not entitled to 120% I'd stick to the facts and kindly advise if you will go to prtb but don't hold him over a barrel because he may or may not be registered which is of no concern of the tenants.

In the suggestion I made I was using 120% as a bargaining tool to negotiate and end up with 100%. The additional 20% could be for the inconvenience and unnecessary chasing which the OP has had to do. OP didn't ask for this dispute with the LL and asking nicely for their money hasn't been successful so far.

Of course the LL's potential fine and Revenue affairs are of no consequence to the OP, but they are to the LL, hence their usefulness.

It might be described as blackmail but I would call it 'using leverage'. I haven't suggested doing anything unlawful or saying anything untruthful. As long as the OP used this approach to get their full deposit back and no more, I wouldn't worry at all about the moral implications. OP is either dealing with a cowboy or a clueless LL. In either case asking meekly for their money back hasn't worked. Different approach is required

Michael D Not Higgins

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

I haven't suggested doing anything unlawful or saying anything untruthful.

Demanding additional money above the deposit amount could be considered unlawful. Do not advocate it again.

El_Duderino 09

Michael D Not Higgins wrote:

Demanding additional money above the deposit amount could be considered unlawful. Do not advocate it again.

Ok. Out in the real world, people use leverage as a bargaining position, in anticipation of reducing the amount during negotiation and with the ultimate aim of achieving a fair resolution. I appreciate boards can't be seen to allow that type of talk so I take that suggestion back

It's worth keeping in mind that the OP is already involved in a negotiation. The LL has proposed unlawfully keeping some of their deposit and providing insufficient evidence to justify it.

Michael D Not Higgins

El_Duderino 09 wrote: »

Ok. Out in the real world, people use leverage as a bargaining position, in anticipation of reducing the amount during negotiation and with the ultimate aim of achieving a fair resolution. I appreciate boards can't be seen to allow that type of talk so I take that suggestion back

It's worth keeping in mind that the OP is already involved in a negotiation. The LL has proposed unlawfully keeping some of their deposit and providing insufficient evidence to justify it.

It is not a negotiation, it is the return of a security deposit which has laws on what it covers and doesn't cover. There's no bargaining or leverage, there's a black and white case of what the security deposit can be withheld for.

I have advised to you already that because the landlord has allegedly acted a certain way does not entitle anyone here to advise the OP to act illegally or questionably legally.

That's the end of the discussion. I'm not allowing anymore fringe discussion on how to pressure the landlord outside the bounds of the law and will card the next person who does.