Were the Brits planning a Dublin underground?

Boulevardier

I have recently heard that on the eve of independence in the 1916-21 period, plans had been under way to provide Dublin, then the "second city of the Empire" with an underground railway system. Apparently some tunnels were at least planned and surveyed if not actually built.

Once independence was obtained nothing more was done about it.

Does anyone know if there is any truth whatsoever in this story?

Del.Monte

Utter tosh. The 'Brits' as you so quaintly put it wouldn't have been planning any such thing. Back in the early 20th century railway development was a private enterprise not some State inspired project.

Boulevardier

Well then, was anyone planning such a thing?

Sam Russell

Why would anyone think of building an underground when Dublin had one of the best and most extensive tram systems going? If only it were still there.

Del.Monte

Boulevardier wrote: »

Well then, was anyone planning such a thing?

No.

Banjoxed

Sam Russell wrote: »

Why would anyone think of building an underground when Dublin had one of the best and most extensive tram systems going? If only it were still there.

The dismantling of the tram network and much of the railway system was ultimately caused by a change in management at the DUTC to a bunch of FF connected people. In addition read Andrews "Dublin Made Me" for his visceral dislike of the professional class people getting off the trains at Harcourt Street in his youth. To use a time honoured phrase, it was a case of "vingince, be Jasus"

Grandeeod

Boulevardier wrote: »

Well then, was anyone planning such a thing?

Back in 1864 there was a plan to do it. It ran for a length of 5 miles, 1 furlong and 2 chains. It was costed at £1 million. Both the original rapid transit plan from the 1970s and DU are based on it. The plan was based on linking Dublin rail termini and allowing "traffic from the interior of Ireland to pass through Dublin without difficulty or delay".

Grandeeod

Sam Russell wrote: »

Why would anyone think of building an underground when Dublin had one of the best and most extensive tram systems going? If only it were still there.

It was about linking the Dublin termini. The PPT tunnel eventually linked Heuston to Connolly in a way, but Harcourt street was still isolated. Westland row got linked into things too by 1890.

Sam Russell

Grandeeod wrote: »

It was about linking the Dublin termini. The PPT tunnel eventually linked Heuston to Connolly in a way, but Harcourt street was still isolated. Westland row got linked into things too by 1890.

The Westland to Amien St was an (ugly) elevated link - not underground. Not sure how Harcourt St could be linked other than by tunnel.

Grandeeod

Sam Russell wrote: »

The Westland to Amien St was an (ugly) elevated link - not underground. Not sure how Harcourt St could be linked other than by tunnel.

I was referring to your point about Dublin having tram lines and not needing an underground. The proposals to link up Dublin termini were dominated by elevated links and a central station. They were revised to an underground system that never went ahead. The loop line evetually did.

Why would anyone think of building an underground when Dublin had one of the best and most extensive tram systems going? If only it were still there.

hytrogen

Sam Russell wrote:

Why would anyone think of building an underground when Dublin had one of the best and most extensive tram systems going? If only it were still there.

Banjoxed wrote:

The dismantling of the tram network and much of the railway system was ultimately caused by a change in management at the DUTC to a bunch of FF connected people. In addition read Andrews "Dublin Made Me" for his visceral dislike of the professional class people getting off the trains at Harcourt Street in his youth. To use a time honoured phrase, it was a case of "vingince, be Jasus"

+1 on accuracy of both accounts unfortunately

Losty Dublin

Grandeeod wrote: »

It was about linking the Dublin termini. The PPT tunnel eventually linked Heuston to Connolly in a way, but Harcourt street was still isolated. Westland row got linked into things too by 1890.

The loop line was more about linking Kingstown to the rest of the network for mail boats than it was about commuter convenience. Harcourt Street was not going to be a serious contender to be linked to Heuston or Amien Street as it was not much more than a suburban station, even in the late 19th centre. The GSWR tunnel was it's link into the docklands area, mainly to allow them a foothold into the cattle trade which was thriving for the MGWR.

I read somewhere, possibly in an IRRS journal, that the genesis of a line was worked out between Westland Row and Kingsbridge. Property would have been an issue; the line ran through Temple Bar and Guinness's lower yard towards the quays.

Just to touch on topic; Dublin would not have sustained an underground railway. In 1900 the urban city only went as far as Merrion, Terenure, Rialto, Phibsboro, Drumcondra and Fairview and was a fraction of today's city. Trams were more than sufficient to meet passenger demand and to grow fairly organically with the city. Indeed they would have grown were it not for the DUTC's Percy Reynolds and his grá for street buses/alleged bribes from Leyland.

cgcsb

By the early 20th Century Dublin's status as second city and as one of the world's largest cities was all gone. From the act of union onwards Dublin declined into poverty and dereliction. Belfast was bigger than Dublin for about 30 years between about 1900 and 1930.

Dublin had become smaller than many provincial British Cities at that stage. Then when the free state was created it grew due to it becoming a centre of government and administration again, but still from 1922 until now Dublin is the centre of a state that has steadfastly embraced rural centric policy and rural idealism from day one, so until that changes, Dublin will still be strangled.

Barcelona was building a planned grided City extension at a time when the Irish state was spending more than half it's budget on rural electrification and tarmacing boreens in depopulating regions.

whisky_galore

Banjoxed wrote: »

The dismantling of the tram network and much of the railway system was ultimately caused by a change in management at the DUTC to a bunch of FF connected people. In addition read Andrews "Dublin Made Me" for his visceral dislike of the professional class people getting off the trains at Harcourt Street in his youth. To use a time honoured phrase, it was a case of "vingince, be Jasus"

The plain people of Ireland, with very few exceptions (West Cork was one of the few areas that created a ruckus) were apathetic and largely silent about the policy of tearing up of the rail network.

When the trams finished up in Dublin, the scumbags busied themselves tearing pieces from tramcars as souvenirs, breaking windows and the Gardai had to be called in to protect staff.

Sam Russell

whisky_galore wrote: »

When the trams finished up in Dublin, the scumbags busied themselves tearing pieces from tramcars as souvenirs, breaking windows and the Gardai had to be called in to protect staff.

Why was there so much thieving? The 1916 rising was a signal for the plain people to go on a rampage of looting. The scrapping of the tram service had people out ripping the trams to bits to get 'souvenirs' Were we always like that?

Grandeeod

Losty Dublin wrote: »

The loop line was more about linking Kingstown to the rest of the network for mail boats than it was about commuter convenience.

I know. Once again, what I have added here is based on the fact that there were proposals for an underground railway in Dublin in answer to the OPs question.

tabbey

As Grandeeod has said, there was a proposal in the 1860s for a tunnel under the Liffey to link the various stand alone railways.

It was one of many different schemes to join up the different systems.
Another proposal was to build a line from about Sidney Parade to somewhere about Kilmainham, where it would turn sharply into Kingsbridge.

The difference with the tunnel scheme was that I think somebody started digging, but I may be mistaken on this, we will have to look up George Mahon's research.

Charles Babbage

Sam Russell wrote: »

Why was there so much thieving? The 1916 rising was a signal for the plain people to go on a rampage of looting. The scrapping of the tram service had people out ripping the trams to bits to get 'souvenirs' Were we always like that?

So people took items from trams that were going to be scrapped? Crime of the century.

Sam Russell

Charles Babbage wrote: »

So people took items from trams that were going to be scrapped? Crime of the century.

They were dismantling the tram while it was still in service. Would people do that now?

savagethegoat

cgcsb wrote: »

By the early 20th Century Dublin's status as second city and as one of the world's largest cities was all gone. From the act of union onwards Dublin declined into poverty and dereliction. Belfast was bigger than Dublin for about 30 years between about 1900 and 1930.

Dublin had become smaller than many provincial British Cities at that stage. Then when the free state was created it grew due to it becoming a centre of government and administration again, but still from 1922 until now Dublin is the centre of a state that has steadfastly embraced rural centric policy and rural idealism from day one, so until that changes, Dublin will still be strangled.

Barcelona was building a planned grided City extension at a time when the Irish state was spending more than half it's budget on rural electrification and tarmacing boreens in depopulating regions.

I don't think the decline was to do with the act of union , it was mainly due to the industrial revolution passing Ireland by due to it's lack of natural resources

Sam Russell

savagethegoat wrote: »

I don't think the decline was to do with the act of union , it was mainly due to the industrial revolution passing Ireland by due to it's lack of natural resources

But the Act of Union is the reason the industrial revolution passed Ireland by. It was the social policy of the Westminster Government in the 19th century that earmarked Ireland as the bread basket for English industry, and this policy led to the famine, and eventually to the events of 1916.

Anyway this is off topic.

cgcsb

savagethegoat wrote: »

I don't think the decline was to do with the act of union , it was mainly due to the industrial revolution passing Ireland by due to it's lack of natural resources

The industrial revolution steamed along in the North East of Ireland just fine, despite the fact that the North East doesn't have any natural resources not found elsewhere in Ireland. The act of union effectively moved the wealthy classes from Dublin to London.

Del.Monte

Sam Russell wrote: »

They were dismantling the tram while it was still in service. Would people do that now?

There's precious little on a Luas tram that would be 'collectable', but people - myself included - would still be busy with our screwdrivers.

ClovenHoof

Sam Russell wrote: »

But the Act of Union is the reason the industrial revolution passed Ireland by. It was the social policy of the Westminster Government in the 19th century that earmarked Ireland as the bread basket for English industry, and this policy led to the famine, and eventually to the events of 1916.

Anyway this is off topic.

Nope. The Act of Union turned Ireland into the Orkney/Shetland of the home nations. It was designed to do just that and it did.

Hence why independence was this country's only realistic option for a future. I shudder to think what we would be like now if still in the Union. Orkney/Shetlands without the oil.

cgcsb

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Nope. The Act of Union turned Ireland into the Orkney/Shetland of the home nations. It was designed to do just that and it did.

Hence why independence was this country's only realistic option for a future. I shudder to think what we would be like now if still in the Union. Orkney/Shetlands without the oil.

Just look at the UK(excluding the South of England) now to see what it would be like, hungry kids, mobility scooters, cash4gold and £1 pints

Del.Monte

Deedsie wrote: »

Fruity gambling machines in the pubs. Awful... Up the Republic :-)

and scampi in a basket.

whisky_galore

Apart from the fruit machines and cheap pints, we also have all those things, unless you think the ROI is some sort of vice-less Shangri La.

cgcsb

whisky_galore wrote: »

Apart from the fruit machines and cheap pints, we also have all those things, unless you think the ROI is some sort of vice-less Shangri La.

I couldn't think of a pub with a fruit machine, and you generally don't see Iceland supermarkets, £1 pints and 40 stone, 40 year old lads on mobility scooters going around with ventilators in Ireland

Del.Monte

cgcsb wrote: »

I couldn't think of a pub with a fruit machine, and you generally don't see Iceland supermarkets, £1 pints and 40 stone, 40 year old lads on mobility scooters going around with ventilators in Ireland

Yeah,yeah, we get it, the UK is a basket case, but what does that make this little rock?

Sam Russell

Remember that Dublin is the only British (at the time) city shelled by British forces, and it happened 100 years ago.

I think there was little infrastructure investment in Ireland after they finished the famine relief projects. Any plan for an underground would have been private investment which was also in decline since the famine.

whisky_galore

Sam Russell wrote: »

Remember that Dublin is the only British (at the time) city shelled by British forces, and it happened 100 years ago.

Not quite, the Royal Navy opened fire on American colonial coastal towns during the American War of Independence.

Sam Russell

whisky_galore wrote: »

Not quite, the Royal Navy opened fire on American colonial coastal towns during the American War of Independence.

While that is correct, I was using British to mean British Isles. I'm sure the British Navy have shelled plenty of towns and cities around their vast empire.

n97 mini

Sam Russell wrote: »

While that is correct, I was using British to mean British Isles. I'm sure the British Navy have shelled plenty of towns and cities around their vast empire.

Or better again, the only city in the United Kingdom to be shelled. But they frequently showed their disdain for us by use of force. As a poster above said Dublin (and Ireland) was punished for the 1798 rebellion with the Act of Union and was left to rot.

monument

Please don't stray too far from rail and transport issues, thanks.

-- moderator

Boulevardier

Exactly, mod.

MrMorooka

Meanwhile "the brits" are ploughing ahead with an underground that dwarfs any kind of DART Underground that we will never build. Makes one feel inadequate.

http://arstechnica.co.uk/business/2016/05/london-elizabeth-line-crossrail-photos-details/

Eiretrains

Not so much an underground network but the 'Dublin Metropolitan Railway' was another forward thinking 19th century scheme of cross-linking Dublin City by rail via the city centre. Planned and promoted by Frederick Barry, the line would be a suburban overground line of the elevated type (like the Chicago 'L' railway and other foreign elevated city railways), which would run the length of the Liffey quays from the Customs House to Kingsbridge. So real was this scheme that a 'mock' railway bridge (of wood) was erected across the O'Connell Street end of Westmoreland Street to demonstrate the visual impact of an elevated railway running above the street.

It was not at all popular, generating great public opposition to the scheme which was then quietly dropped, much "to the pleasure of the environmentalists of the time". An extremely rare picture of the 'mock' Dublin Metropolitan bridge was published in IRRS Journal No.107. I often wonder if it had been built would people have grown used to it and would it be greatly appreciated nowadays in light of prevailing transport issues in Dublin.

Grandeeod

Eiretrains wrote: »

Not so much an underground network but the 'Dublin Metropolitan Railway' was another forward thinking 19th century scheme of cross-linking Dublin City by rail via the city centre. Planned and promoted by Frederick Barry, the line would be a suburban overground line of the elevated type (like the Chicago 'L' railway and other foreign elevated city railways), which would run the length of the Liffey quays from the Customs House to Kingsbridge. So real was this scheme that a 'mock' railway bridge (of wood) was erected across the O'Connell Street end of Westmoreland Street to demonstrate the visual impact of an elevated railway running above the street.

It was not at all popular, generating great public opposition to the scheme which was then quietly dropped, much "to the pleasure of the environmentalists of the time". An extremely rare picture of the 'mock' Dublin Metropolitan bridge was published in IRRS Journal No.107. I often wonder if it had been built would people have grown used to it and would it be greatly appreciated nowadays in light of prevailing transport issues in Dublin.

It was replanned to what I said in post #7 in the thread.

Del.Monte

Eiretrains wrote: »

Not so much an underground network but the 'Dublin Metropolitan Railway' was another forward thinking 19th century scheme of cross-linking Dublin City by rail via the city centre. Planned and promoted by Frederick Barry, the line would be a suburban overground line of the elevated type (like the Chicago 'L' railway and other foreign elevated city railways), which would run the length of the Liffey quays from the Customs House to Kingsbridge. So real was this scheme that a 'mock' railway bridge (of wood) was erected across the O'Connell Street end of Westmoreland Street to demonstrate the visual impact of an elevated railway running above the street.

It was not at all popular, generating great public opposition to the scheme which was then quietly dropped, much "to the pleasure of the environmentalists of the time". An extremely rare picture of the 'mock' Dublin Metropolitan bridge was published in IRRS Journal No.107. I often wonder if it had been built would people have grown used to it and would it be greatly appreciated nowadays in light of prevailing transport issues in Dublin.

Two illustrations (from a 1979 edition of Country Life) for the proposed elevated railway down the south side of the Liffey may be of interest. To reduce noise/pollution, the railway was to be either horse worked or by ropes and stationary steam-engines at either end of the route. It was to be a vital link in a new, fast route to an unspecified west coast port to cut time off the trans-Atlantic crossing to the USA. Thankfully it was never built.

ClovenHoof

The engineering on that is stupid. Them columns would hold up nothing. Looks more like a sales pitch to convince the public and then build it with more conventional engineering.

tabbey

ClovenHoof wrote: »

The engineering on that is stupid. Them columns would hold up nothing. Looks more like a sales pitch to convince the public and then build it with more conventional engineering.

Absolutely.

Eiretrains

Del.Monte wrote: »

They're really interesting thanks, never seen those illustrations before, very hard to envisage it.