Skipping queue or not?

CiniO

As advised by mod, I'm starting separate thread about it, not to trash dashcam thread.

Here's what we talked so far.

Pedro32561 wrote: »

A regular manoeuvre at Sandyford junction is for cars to skip the queue in lanes 1 & 2 going towards the Industrial Estate and use the Central Park lane to jump back in at the last minute. I've seen a good few close calls with this. Watch the silver van at the start move into lane 3. It then seems that I'm the one in the wrong going by the efforts he went to in gesturing to me!

CiniO wrote: »

I watched it few times, and I'm completely puzzled why was he showing something to you?
It didn't look like you interacted with each other at all before that.

Also I can't really see what is the issue you're describing with van driving.

savagethegoat wrote: »

I can't really see an issue either. He was in the straight ahead lane before the roundabout and went straight on and having done that had to change lanes. Not everyone has prior knowledge of what the lanes do the other side of a roundabout.(maybe he did and was cute but was he wrong? ) He left the merge left a bit late admittedly.

EndaHonesty wrote: »

Pedro beeped the van for performing a perfectly normal merge.
The van driver quite rightly IMO, indicated that Pedro should mind his own business.
I agree with the van driver.

josip wrote: »

Pedro beeped the van for performing a legal merge, but one which given the 142 D reg, was probably planned to get ahead of the long queue of cars who were already in lanes that didn't require changing.
There is no evidence in the vid to back this up, it's just my gut feeling based on 25 years of driving in Dublin and each will form their own opinion from the vid.
The van driver, gave Pedro the wan*er sign while not paying attention to the road in front of him.
I wouldn't agree with the van driver's actions.

Caliden wrote: »

LOL. If everyone did what the van driver did, there would be chaos.

I don't understand why people let in others who knowingly skip a queue of traffic.

EndaHonesty wrote: »

If everyone merged across broken white lines there would be chaos?

Caliden wrote: »

He left it so late he was actually driving over a solid line before he was fully in the lane.

Signage/road markings were visible at 0:30 yet he continued on.

If you honestly think he made a genuine mistake then I've got some magic beans for sale that you may be interested in.

EndaHonesty wrote: »

The only mistake I saw in the video was some busy-body, wannabe traffic cop beeping at a van for no reason.

CiniO wrote: »

Maybe you guys know the place.
I don't.
And from what I can see, there were 3 lanes - all three for going straight ahead and right one additionally for turning right.
Van went through roundabout straight ahead on most right lane (the one indicated for going straight or right) and then ended up on a lane for right turn only, so he changed to middle lane.

Is that correct what I see, or am I missing something?

josip wrote: »

You're correct.
Why do you think the cars were queuing up in the 2 leftmost lanes approaching the roundabout?

Alun wrote: »

That whole area is a disaster for right or left turn only lanes suddenly appearing with very little warning if you don't know the place.

savagethegoat wrote: »

without a crystal ball someone unfamiliar wouldn't know what the layout was after the roundabout. He is without doubt correct until after the roundabout making your post irrelevant. Even if he did know, he isn't wrong, although as said he left it rather late to merge.

CiniO

josip wrote: »

You're correct.
Why do you think the cars were queuing up in the 2 leftmost lanes approaching the roundabout?

Well, generally if I see three lanes going in the same direction, and queues on 2 and one empty, then I'd just take the empty one. No point in not doing so.
Same if there's 2 lanes and 1 lane queued, and other free. I'd go on the free one.

I can't understand why people prefer queuing instead of using all lanes available.

EndaHonesty

CiniO wrote: »

Well, generally if I see three lanes going in the same direction, and queues on 2 and one empty, then I'd just take the empty one. No point in not doing so.
Same if there's 2 lanes and 1 lane queued, and other free. I'd go on the free one.

I can't understand why people prefer queuing instead of using all lanes available.

Exactly.

What do road authorities do, in many cases, to increase capacity on roads that are crowded?
They add extra lanes to that road.
Queuing in 2 lanes while there are empty lanes is stupid.
That van driver was not skipping a queue, they were maintaining their progress.

conzy

I'm going to take the bait here and say he is skipping the queue. After the roundabout he lands in a lane that is right only and snakes his way back into the lane for going straight ahead.

A) He's a chancer, And what he has done here is akin to using the right hand lane to go all the way around a roundabout and straight on when the left lane is backed up

He was unsure of the layout and made a mistake

Voodoomelon

conzy wrote: »

A) He's a chancer, And what he has done here is akin to using the right hand lane to go all the way around a roundabout and straight on when the left lane is backed up

I do this on one particular roundabout, right lane is always empty and the left lane can have 30 cars in it. I don't see a problem with it.

XsApollo

i was just about to post that i do that too on a few roundabouts i frequent :P

thadg

if a garda car was behind him and he done this they wouldn't be able to do him for anything. he followed a straight on arrow on the lane and that turned into a turn right arrow after the roundabout and he then changed lanes on a broken white line. where is the problem

thadg

Voodoomelon wrote: »

I do this on one particular roundabout, right lane is always empty and the left lane can have 30 cars in it. I don't see a problem with it.

ya, the roundabout at mallow coming from cork side, everytime;)

Chickarooney

All three lanes are going straight through roundabout. He is going straight through roundabout.

Later he changes into the lane he needs for the next junction.

Would that not be fairly normal?

Except the late merge, jammed on breaks (OP looks to have had to take corrective action), swerving to merge instead of controlled, forcing into a slot (can't see if they were signalled in but look like they cut up the car in the lane).

Once he left the roundabout he was in a right turn only lane. He was skilping the queue from that point on no and causing obstruction to cars behind him?
You see gits like that stop in the turning lanes until some sap lets them in, causing the heretofore free turning lane to jam up

Chickarooney

[Deleted User] wrote: »

Except the late merge, jammed on breaks (OP looks to have had to take corrective action), swerving to merge instead of controlled, forcing into a slot (can't see if they were signalled in but look like they cut up the car in the lane).

Once he left the roundabout he was in a right turn only lane. He was skilping the queue from that point on no and causing obstruction to cars behind him?
You see gits like that stop in the turning lanes until some sap lets them in, causing the heretofore free turning lane to jam up

Have watched it back a couple of times and tire definitely right about the late merge. He could have changed lanes much earlier and more safely.

The act of him going through the roundabout in the right hand lane though I'm not sure there should be an issue with.

Chickarooney

Chickarooney wrote: »

Have watched it back a couple of times and tire definitely right about the late merge. He could have changed lanes much earlier and more safely.

The act of him going through the roundabout in the right hand lane though I'm not sure there should be an issue with.

It's straight through the roundabout yeah but it's a lane the goes only right, it never merges back into the lane on its left (don't tbink that there is a way to signal that prior to roundabout mind but I doubt that this driver was unaware)

If 10 cars do this then a right hand only lane becomes blocked to those wishing to use it correctly.

rameire

before this junction was upgraded, there were only two lanes heading to the roundabout, then after the roundabout a third lane appeared for right hand turns only into central park.
now there are three lanes before the roundabout,
the left two are signed on the road as N31 with straight on arrows, the right lane is signed as R113 with a straight on and right arrow.
after the roundabout the left 2 lanes have straight on arrows, and the right lane has right only arrows.

this occurs every day, and the people that usually do it are the people who merge in at the last second from the m50 onto the slip road, usually causing people to jam on who were already on the slip and people to jam on who are continuing on the m50.

Markcheese

thadg wrote:

ya, the roundabout at mallow coming from cork side, everytime

Brother in law got pulled on that roundabout coming from the limerick side,for lane changing,garda gave him points and all...

Markcheese

Basically if I do it then i'm in the right, if anyone else does it theyy,'re que jumping...

shietpilot

Sure that lane clearly has an arrow pointing straight and right. He was perfectly fine to go straight on a lane that has an arrow pointing straight and then merge into another lane later. Maybe he did it a bit too late but there is no need for a beep.

ironclaw

Perfectly legitimate move. Road markings say straight on and R113, its impossible to know that the lane you end up in at that point is going to tunnel you into the Clayton / Bewley's / Vodafone. Broken lines means you can change lane if its safe to do so.

All the markings on roundabouts near Sandyford are a disaster. I have no idea why we can't signpost and correctly identify roads for pre-emptive lane choice in this country.

greenflash

I drive that section of road a fair amount - sometimes turning right into Central Park and sometimes going straight for South County Business Park. Left two lanes are always full for traffic going to Sandyford and Leopardstown right lanes for Central Park are always clearer. There are loads of drivers who know the road and know they can get 10 cars or so ahead of where they would have been. It happens every time I come off the M50 there. Technically & legally they're doing nothing wrong but morally it's the equivalent of parking in a mother and baby space at Tesco. It's rare to get a reaction from one of them as usually they're too busy pretending to be oblivious to the existence of all other road users. It's understandable really as they don't want to be late for the prize giving ceremony for everyone who's arrived at work a few cars ahead of where they would have been otherwise.

Vic_08

Voodoomelon wrote: »

I do this on one particular roundabout, right lane is always empty and the left lane can have 30 cars in it. I don't see a problem with it.

It increases the delay for people using the correct lanes. It is cheeky and selfish but not illegal.

Same as people using housing estates and back roads to rat-run congested main routes, it only helps those doing it because most others don't and adds to the congestion on the appropriate routes.

Voodoomelon

Vic_08 wrote: »

It increases the delay for people using the correct lanes. It is cheeky and selfish but not illegal.

Same as people using housing estates and back roads to rat-run congested main routes, it only helps those doing it because most others don't and adds to the congestion on the appropriate routes.

Not on the roundabout I do it on. The road passing straight through the roundabout is the busier route. If everyone made use of both lanes, the traffic would flow a good 25% faster I reckon. Makes no sense to have one lane chockablock and the other empty.

savagethegoat

Markcheese wrote: »

Brother in law got pulled on that roundabout coming from the limerick side,for lane changing,garda gave him points and all...

that's because in both directions there is a lane marked for turning left or right only. Personally when northbound if there is a lot of traffic queuing I take the "fifth" exit to head west..... not cricket, but not illegal either. It seems to be the people going straight on from the turning lane that the Gards target there. They'd be wise to take the "sixth" exit.
Anyway it's a different situation to the OP where the guy is doing nothing wrong going straight across the roundabout and then changing lanes.....maybe not cricket, but not illegal.

rameire

In addition to my first post here.
On the slip before the roundabout on the right hand side is a 12 foot by 12 foot green road sign. And it has the layout of the road and dirwction of the lanes.
It states. Left two lanes are for straight on only. Right lane is for right around roundabout and central park only.

Zubeneschamali

rameire wrote: »

It states. Left two lanes are for straight on only. Right lane is for right around roundabout and central park only.

But the arrows on the road contradict that. If the lane is for right only, they should show right only, but they show straight and/or right, so the van is arguably legal.

Obviously he is queue jumping, and if everyone tried it, the whole roundabout would jam up. No point in beeping him, though.

savagethegoat

rameire wrote: »

In addition to my first post here.
On the slip before the roundabout on the right hand side is a 12 foot by 12 foot green road sign. And it has the layout of the road and dirwction of the lanes.
It states. Left two lanes are for straight on only. Right lane is for right around roundabout and central park only.

new information but it doesn't change anything for someone who doesn't know what or where Central Park is, and the line at the location is a dotted one which doesn't bar the manoeuvre the van made. Changing this to a solid line would alter the situation, but you'd probably need a line of those plastic bollards to stop it happening

Zubeneschamali

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

But the arrows on the road contradict that. If the lane is for right only, they should show right only, but they show straight and/or right, so the van is arguably legal.

Obviously he is queue jumping, and if everyone tried it, the whole roundabout would jam up. No point in beeping him, though.

Do you even think before posting?
The lane is for right turn on roundabout to go over motorway (to Kiltiernan?) and straight through the roundabout to turn right after it.

You have to traverse the roundabout but the lane is still a right turn. The road markings are for roundabout behaviour, not lane purpose. The overheads state what ane you need to be in

frozenfrozen

I think lane 3(red) having an arrow for straight on and right is left over from when lane 1(blue) was previously left only.

So is it down to bad road design... as always?

Three entrance lanes shouldn't be taking the same exit I don't think.

Aongus Von Heisenberg

I'd be most concerned about how casually the van pulled into the lane on his left.

There was very little space and a car had just pulled into that lane from the next lane to the left. As the video was slowed down and sped up it was impossible to judge the speed of the vehicles but it seems that the van just went straight in front of a car in the other lane without a care in the world, which is a great way to cause a crash.

In my experience that's something that roundabout hoppers do the whole time. Often they have to to get back into their correct lane before its too late, as was the case here. So while approaching in the wrong lane to skip traffic isn't illegal it is usually a dead giveaway of a dangerous driver.

Zubeneschamali

Deleted User wrote: »

You have to traverse the roundabout but the lane is still a right turn.

But it is perfectly OK to go straight through the roundabout in that lane: that's what the marking on the road says.

frozenfrozen

The road marking is wrong and needs to be changed

shietpilot

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

But it is perfectly OK to go straight through the roundabout in that lane: that's what the marking on the road says.

I'm actually confused why people are arguing over this... People need an invitation or something? Surely an arrow is enough. No wonder people drive the way they drive on the road. Struggles with basic road signs.

rameire

frozenfrozen wrote: »

The road marking is wrong and needs to be changed

The road markings were updated after the upgrade to the slips. And match the road signage.

frozenfrozen

make me a diagram please showing how it makes sense to have 3 entrances all going to the same exit

ironclaw

frozenfrozen wrote: »

make me a diagram please showing how it makes sense to have 3 entrances all going to the same exit

Three Lanes On, Three Lanes Off. You only use the right most lane for continuing around the roundabout to Kilternan / M50 North. The vast majority of the traffic there is for Leopardstown / N11 / Sandyford, so it make sense.

savagethegoat

however it's signed, it's not illegal to go straight on with a straight on arrow and it's not illegal to change lanes on a dotted line.

frozenfrozen

nobody said it was illegal.. just whether it was skipping. if anything the van increased the flow of traffic by filtering..

but anyway what I'm asking is how it makes sense for the third entrance lane on a roundabout to be used for an exit before 12 o clock. that exit lane is for people who have gone around the roundabout.. like every other 2 in 2 out you should always be trying to get to the leftmost lane for the exit you're taking so when you exit someone from that entrance can use the gap to enter..

Zubeneschamali

Zubeneschamali wrote: »

But it is perfectly OK to go straight through the roundabout in that lane: that's what the marking on the road says.

Yes but the lane's purpose is for the following right hand turn (which is also clearly signalled overhead)
It's not a merging lane for the lanes to the left (to Lepoardstown?)

shietpilot

shietpilot wrote: »

I'm actually confused why people are arguing over this... People need an invitation or something? Surely an arrow is enough. No wonder people drive the way they drive on the road. Struggles with basic road signs.

How about looking at the signs over head and get in the correct lane not cause the traffic to take evasive action, on your jamming breaks and swerving into a not fit for purpose gap, in front of a car starting off and causing them to also hit the breaks.

CiniO

Deleted User wrote: »

How about looking at the signs over head and get in the correct lane not cause the traffic to take evasive action, on your jamming breaks and swerving into a not fit for purpose gap, in front of a car starting off and causing them to also hit the breaks.

Where are those signs?

rameire

CiniO wrote: »

Where are those signs?

On the slip road. Half way up. On the right hand side.

rameire

Anyway. In 12 or so months. The roundabout will be gone and a new signalised junction will be in its place.

ohnonotgmail

rameire wrote: »

Anyway. In 12 or so months. The roundabout will be gone and a new signalised junction will be in its place.

any further info on this plan? there are already traffic lights on the roundabout.

rameire

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

any further info on this plan? there are already traffic lights on the roundabout.

Removal of roundabout.
New signalised junction.
New link road through esb lands to sandyford business park. From the m50 slip to junction.
There will be a free flow slip left to the new link road.

heebusjeebus

rameire wrote: »

Removal of roundabout.
New signalised junction.
New link road through esb lands to sandyford business park. From the m50 slip to junction.
There will be a free flow slip left to the new link road.

Has there been an update on this? The last I've heard on it was from a few years back.
No change from the dlroco website:

http://www.dlrcoco.ie/aboutus/councildepartments/planning/proposedpart8schemes/pc0713-proposedesblinkroadandlinktoaren/

ohnonotgmail

heebusjeebus wrote: »

Has there been an update on this? The last I've heard on it was from a few years back.
No change from the dlroco website:

http://www.dlrcoco.ie/aboutus/councildepartments/planning/proposedpart8schemes/pc0713-proposedesblinkroadandlinktoaren/

I thought it has been abandoned when they did the work on the leopardstown roundabout and created the new entrance to the estate opposite what was Bewleys hotel.

Chickarooney

I've just come through that junction.

The right hand lane says straight and right. But it also says it's the correct lane for the R113. When you come through the roundabout, the lane for the R113 is the one which the van joined later.

So the van driver is actually entirely correct here.

The way he does is questionable. But following the signs for the R113 he did exactly what the road instructs him to do.

ohnonotgmail

Chickarooney wrote: »

I've just come through that junction.

The right hand lane says straight and right. But it also says it's the correct lane for the R113. When you come through the roundabout, the lane for the R113 is the one which the van joined later.

So the van driver is actually entirely correct here.

The way he does is questionable. But following the signs for the R113 he did exactly what the road instructs him to do.

I've just come through the same junction and i'm not sure i agree with you. The signage says that the third lane is for turning right at the roundabout and for going to Central Park only. No mention of the R113. The first and second lanes are clearly marked for the R113.

mcgovern

You can see the same vans do this every morning, often blocking one of the lanes into Central Park when they can't get merge back in to the left.

grogi

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I've just come through the same junction and i'm not sure i agree with you. The signage says that the third lane is for turning right at the roundabout and for going to Central Park only. No mention of the R113. The first and second lanes are clearly marked for the R113.

The line after the RB is dashed, not solid. So the van is not doing anything illegal. If the signs are as you say here, its behaviour is antisocial.

Chickarooney

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

I've just come through the same junction and i'm not sure i agree with you. The signage says that the third lane is for turning right at the roundabout and for going to Central Park only. No mention of the R113. The first and second lanes are clearly marked for the R113.

This is a still from the video in the first post, the road is clearly arked R113, with straight and right arrows. When the van driver gets to the other side of the roundabout, the third lane changes and to continue on to the R113 you must change lanes - R113 is marked at the exact point where he enters the other lane.

It does become somewhat complicated because the R113 also turns right, but that is what the right arrow is for, to take the next exit on the motorway.

Approaching the roundabout, if you are going taking the R113 toward the N11 you are presented with a lane clearly marked R113 and a straight arrow.

The fact that the roads are not ideally marked, is not the fault of the driver.

Again, how he made the move is questionable, but to use to right hand lane would not be incorrect, particularly to a driver who doesn't know the roads well.

ohnonotgmail

Chickarooney wrote: »

This is a still from the video in the first post, the road is clearly arked R113, with straight and right arrows. When the van driver gets to the other side of the roundabout, the third lane changes and to continue on to the R113 you must change lanes - R113 is marked at the exact point where he enters the other lane.

It does become somewhat complicated because the R113 also turns right, but that is what the right arrow is for, to take the next exit on the motorway.

Approaching the roundabout, if you are going taking the R113 toward the N11 you are presented with a lane clearly marked R113 and a straight arrow.

The fact that the roads are not ideally marked, is not the fault of the driver.

Again, how he made the move is questionable, but to use to right hand lane would not be incorrect, particularly to a driver who doesn't know the roads well.

*snip*

in that case the overhead signage disagrees with the road markings. the overhead signage has the R113 indicated only for lanes 1 and 2

ironclaw

ohnonotgmail wrote: »

in that case the overhead signage disagrees with the road markings. the overhead signage has the R113 indicated only for lanes 1 and 2

A lot of the roundabouts in Sandyford suffer from this unfortunately.