No warranty from dealer

blade1

A friend was looking at this car and its €500 cheaper with no warranty.
Surely a dealer has to give a warranty no matter what the price is, no?
Consumers rights surely come before anything else.

Is this a common practice these days for a dealer to have 2 different price tags on one car?
Smells a bit iffy to me!
This is the car!
http://m.carsireland.ie/detail.php?ad_id=1280868&r=s.php%3Fm%3D93%26o%3D807%26g%3D0

alan partridge aha

blade1 wrote: »

A friend was looking at this car and its €500 cheaper with no warranty.
Surely a dealer has to give a warranty no matter what the price is, no?
Consumers rights surely come before anything else.

Is this a common practice these days for a dealer to have 2 different price tags on one car?
Smells a bit iffy to me!
This is the car!
http://m.carsireland.ie/detail.php?ad_id=1280868&r=s.php%3Fm%3D93%26o%3D807%26g%3D0

An 02 car for 1250 and you want a warranty, come on.

bazz26

What sort of dealer warranty is he getting on a €1250 14 year old car? What dealer comeback is he looking for at €750?

blade1

alan partridge aha wrote: »

An 02 car for 1250 and you want a warranty, come on.

No I don't want a warranty!
Where did i say that?
I don't even want the car!

i just want to know can a dealer sell a car without a warranty?

SpannerMonkey

not at all you'd be doing well to get any warranty from a dealer on a car that old or if he did give one it would be 3 months at best
and yes they can sell a car without a warranty . very common practice

jelutong

In the small print its says Three Months warranty.

VincePP

blade1 wrote: »

No I don't want a warranty!
Where did i say that?
I don't even want the car!

i just want to know can a dealer sell a car without a warranty?

Yes as its a second hand car and a condition of the sale at the lower price is no warranty - its commonly called a trade sale.

SpannerMonkey

maybe not see here

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/consumer_affairs/motoring/advice_on_buying_a_used_car_in_ireland.html
From a garage or car dealer
In this situation you, as a consumer, are protected by the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act 1980 as you are buying a car for your personal use from a person whose normal business it is to sell cars. As a consumer you have the same rights if you buy an item second hand as if it is new. In this case if you find a fault with the car after you have bought it the dealer is the person who must set matters right. If you buy a commercial vehicle or a tractor from a dealer you may not have the same protection under the law. If you are offered an extended warranty on a used car think about the cost of the warranty versus the cost of repairs that the car is likely to need.

Sellers have responsibilities such as giving accurate and truthful answers to the questions you ask. Information on a seller's responsibilities in car deals is available on the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission's website.

It is an offence under both road traffic legislation and the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act 1980 to sell a car which is not roadworthy. Where the car you bought is unroadworthy, you could also refer the matter to the Garda Síochána.

blade1

VincePP wrote: »

Yes as its a second hand car and a condition of the sale is ni warranty - its commonly called a trade sale.

I don't know much about buying off dealers as i don't do it myself.
So this could be a stupid question?:pac:
Is trade sale supposed to be between people in the trade?
If not where did the term trade sale come from?

SpannerMonkey

13.—(1) In this section “motor vehicle” means a vehicle intended or adapted for propulsion by mechanical means, including—

(a) a bicycle or tricycle with an attachment for propelling it by mechanical power, and

(b) a vehicle the means of propulsion of which is electrical or partly electrical and partly mechanical.

(2) Without prejudice to any other condition or warranty, in every contract for the sale of a motor vehicle (except a contract in which the buyer is a person whose business it is to deal in motor vehicles) there is an implied condition that at the time of delivery of the vehicle under the contract it is free from any defect which would render it a danger to the public, including persons travelling in the vehicle.

(3) Subsection (2) of this section shall not apply where—

(a) it is agreed between the seller and the buyer that the vehicle is not intended for use in the condition in which it is to be delivered to the buyer under the contract, and

(b) a document consisting of a statement to that effect is signed by or on behalf of the seller and the buyer and given to the buyer prior to or at the time of such delivery, and

(c) it is shown that the agreement referred to in paragraph (a) is fair and reasonable.

(4) Save in a case in which the implied condition as to freedom from defects referred to in subsection (2) is either not incorporated in the contract or has been effectively excluded from the contract pursuant to that subsection, in the case of every sale of a motor vehicle by a person whose business it is to deal in motor vehicles a certificate in writing in such form as the Minister may by regulations prescribe shall be given to the buyer by or on behalf of the seller to the effect that the vehicle is, at the time of delivery, free from any defect which would render it a danger to the public, including persons travelling in the vehicle.

(5) Where an action is brought for breach of the implied condition referred to in subsection (2) by reason of a specific defect in a motor vehicle and a certificate complying with the requirements of this section is not proved to have been given, it shall be presumed unless the contrary is proved that the proven defect existed at the time of delivery.

(6) Regulations under subsection (4) may apply to motor vehicles generally or to motor vehicles of a particular class or description (defined in such manner and by reference to such things as the Minister thinks proper) and different forms of certificate may be prescribed for different classes or descriptions of vehicles.

(7) A person using a motor vehicle with the consent of the buyer of the vehicle who suffers loss as the result of a breach of the condition implied by subsection (2) in the contract of sale may maintain an action for damages against the seller in respect of the breach as if he were the buyer.

(8) The Statute of Limitations, 1957 , is hereby amended—

(I) by the insertion in section 11 (2) of the following paragraph—

“(d) An action for damages under section 13 (7) of the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act, 1980, shall not be brought after the expiration of two years from the date on which the cause of action accrued.”;

(II) by the insertion in section 49 of the following subsection—

“(5) In the case of an action claiming damages under section 13 (7) of the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act, 1980, subsection (1) of this section shall have effect as if for the words ‘six years’ there were substituted the words ‘two years’.”.

(9) Notwithstanding section 55 (1) of the Act of 1893 (inserted by section 22 of this Act) any term of a contract exempting from all or any of the provisions of this section shall be void.

bazz26

People see 3 month warranty and think great but you have to look at what is actually covered for 3 months though. I could give a 12 month warranty on that car covering next to nothing which means the warranty is near worthless.

When you take away the value of the car and dealer profit from it. What you have left is what the warranty is worth.

blade1

bazz26 wrote: »

People see 3 month warranty and think great but you have to look at what is actually covered for 3 months though. I could give a 12 month warranty on that car covering next to nothing which means the warranty is near worthless.

When you take away the value of the car and dealer profit from it. What you have left is what the warranty is worth.

And thats kinda my point bazz.
If someone bought the car without a warranty for the 500 cheaper and a week later it went bang, do you think by eu law they would have no comeback?

I'm not saying it's one way or the other lads, I genuinely don't know.

Sleeper12

blade1 wrote:

i just want to know can a dealer sell a car without a warranty?

2nd hand yes

bazz26

blade1 wrote: »

And thats kinda my point bazz.
If someone bought the car without a warranty for the 500 cheaper and a week later it went bang, do you think by eu law they would have no comeback?

I'm not saying it's one way or the other lads, I genuinely don't know.

I'm no legal expert but my understanding is that a warranty and Sale of Goods Act are separate entities. Warranty is in addition to cover under the Sale of Goods Act. However my take is even if you went with buying without a warranty and went through the Small Claims Court if the car died a month after buying it, it maybe difficult to get the SCC to rule in your favour given the value and age of the car.

If he really wants to proceed with the car then I'd have the car inspected properly by a good mechanic, if he gives it the thumbs up then I'd buy it at the trade price and pocket the €500 in the event something needed fixing. However given that the car is then costing €750 you really are taking a risk where it may or may not be money well spent. So you could easily be saving €500 on a worthless warranty or wasting €750 on a car with that has an underlying problem that may cost more to fix than it's worth.

blade1

bazz26 wrote: »

I'm no legal expert but my understanding is that a warranty and Sale of Goods Act are separate entities. Warranty is in addition to cover under the Sale of Goods Act. However my take is even if you went with buying without a warranty and went through the Small Claims Court if the car died a month after buying it, it maybe difficult to get the SCC to rule in your favour given the value and age of the car.

If he really wants to proceed with the car then I'd have the car inspected properly by a good mechanic, if he gives it the thumbs up then I'd buy it at the trade price and pocket the €500 in the event something needed fixing. However given that the car is then costing €750 you really are taking a risk where it may or may not be money well spent. So you could easily be saving €500 on a worthless warranty or wasting €750 on a car with that has an underlying problem that may cost more to fix than it's worth.

Yeah thats kinda more along the lines i was thinking.
It was badly worded by me to ask if the dealer has to give a warranty when i was just curious what comeback has a buyer got regardless of warranty.
Like, I know its a cheap car, but if a person spends €1200, I would assume they would be entitled to get €1200 value whether that be 3 weeks, 6 weeks or even 12 weeks, I don't know.

Oh and I don't think my friend is interested in it, it was just one of a few that she sent me a link for.
I'm going to look at a focus with her tomorrow.
Her own car failed the nct yesterday with rusty door sills and a few other things and she just wants something cheap to get her around for another while.

Dia1988

The directors of Motors Sense ltd may have a chequered past in particular with previous garages in the notorious Naas rd.

blade1

Dia1988 wrote: »

The directors of Motors Sense ltd may have a chequered past in particular with previous garages in the notorious Naas rd.

I told ye in the first post that i smelt something iffy!!:pac::pac:

bazz26

If she's on a tight budget then a 1.4 Bora is probably the last car I'd look at in that price range. Those engines like to drink oil, they can suffer from piston slap and the gearboxes are very soft on them.

I'd look towards a Toyota Corolla:
https://www.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/03-toyota-corolla-1-4-petrol-nct-2-17/12191035

alan partridge aha

bazz26 wrote: »

If she's on a tight budget then a 1.4 Bora is probably the last car I'd look at in that price range. Those engines like to drink oil, they can suffer from piston slap and the gearboxes are very soft on them.

I'd look towards a Toyota Corolla:
https://www.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/03-toyota-corolla-1-4-petrol-nct-2-17/12191035

Ya agreed, vw diesels of that vintage are good, petrols not so much. Buy a corolla.

blade1

bazz26 wrote: »

If she's on a tight budget then a 1.4 Bora is probably the last car I'd look at in that price range. Those engines like to drink oil, they can suffer from piston slap and the gearboxes are very soft on them.

I'd look towards a Toyota Corolla:
https://www.donedeal.ie/cars-for-sale/03-toyota-corolla-1-4-petrol-nct-2-17/12191035

Good to know,I wouldn't be well up on different cars.
I get to know only my own cars from doing my own work on them.
If I haven't owned it, i won't know anything about it.

Her budget would be under 1500 unfortunately but if you know of any car in that bracket please feel free to stick it up.
Cheers!!!

alan partridge aha

blade1 wrote: »

Good to know,I wouldn't be well up on different cars.
I get to know only my own cars from doing my own work on them.
If I haven't owned it, i won't know anything about it.

Her budget would be under 1500 unfortunately but if you know of any car in that bracket please feel free to stick it up.
Cheers!!!

Unfortunately insurance can be an issue with a car of that year and older especially when it comes to renewal and trying different companies.

blade1

alan partridge aha wrote: »

Unfortunately insurance can be an issue with a car of that year and older especially when it comes to renewal and trying different companies.

Yeah thats another thing to keep an eye out for.
Although whatever car she gets she would be transfering it from a 1999 mazda 323.

bear1

Over 14s to 100.. Fcuk the warranty

alan partridge aha

blade1 wrote: »

Yeah thats another thing to keep an eye out for.
Although whatever car she gets she would be transfering it from a 1999 mazda 323.

Ya her current insurer wouldn't be a problem just on renewal if she wished to change to a different insurer. Madness I know but that's insurance companies for ya.

grogi

SpannerMonkey wrote: »

maybe not see here

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/consumer_affairs/motoring/advice_on_buying_a_used_car_in_ireland.html
From a garage or car dealer
In this situation you, as a consumer, are protected by the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act 1980 as you are buying a car for your personal use from a person whose normal business it is to sell cars. As a consumer you have the same rights if you buy an item second hand as if it is new. In this case if you find a fault with the car after you have bought it the dealer is the person who must set matters right. If you buy a commercial vehicle or a tractor from a dealer you may not have the same protection under the law. If you are offered an extended warranty on a used car think about the cost of the warranty versus the cost of repairs that the car is likely to need.

Sellers have responsibilities such as giving accurate and truthful answers to the questions you ask. Information on a seller's responsibilities in car deals is available on the Competition and Consumer Protection Commission's website.

It is an offence under both road traffic legislation and the Sale of Goods and Supply of Services Act 1980 to sell a car which is not roadworthy. Where the car you bought is unroadworthy, you could also refer the matter to the Garda Síochána.

Read again. Especially section 13 (3).

grogi

Sleeper12 wrote: »

2nd hand yes

Can sell whatever they want if the buyer is aware of the condition.

blade1

grogi wrote: »

Can sell whatever they want if the buyer is aware of the condition.

Grogi,do you think it's reasonable that a buyer should expect a €1200 car to get them home from the the garage they just got the car from?
So if it broke down a mile down the road they would have no comeback?
I would have thought that it's not the same as buying privately no matter what the dealer says.

grogi

blade1 wrote: »

Grogi,do you think it's reasonable that a buyer should expect a €1200 car to get them home from the the garage they just got the car from?

Honestly - no. If I was selling such a car, it would be sold "as broken" (to fulfil the aforementioned clause) and no warranty given. If anyone gets anything out of that car, it's for their benefit.

acronym Chilli

grogi wrote: »

Honestly - no. If I was selling such a car, it would be sold "as broken" (to fulfil the aforementioned clause) and no warranty given. If anyone gets anything out of that car, it's for their benefit.

I can understand that approach. I've bought 2 cars lately at the ca. 1000 price, in each case from a dealer of some sort (one large-ish 2nd hand dealer, one small 2nd hand dealer). In each case, they marked the receipt "trade sale / as-seen", but didn't sell it "as broken".

If the car's sold by a dealer, to a member of the public, then I don't think "trade sale"/"as seen" is actually legally enforceable unless it's really sold to a member of the trade, or the faults with the car are such that they are clearly visible to a member of the public (e.g. damaged interior, damaged body-panels, paint-flaws, cracked windscreen). The next level of flaws would be one's that a diligent but untrained punter could find by systematic checking (e.g. electric window regulator, missing spare wheel, bulbs out, etc.,). A further level would be stuff that few "punters" would spot without bring a mechanic (e.g. corroded brake lines, worn wheel-bearings or track-rods, CV joint leaking, etc.,).
If there's something wrong with the car that's not disclosed, then definitely the dealer is legally on the hook. If the dealer didn't know about the fault, but could reasonably have found it if he had looked, he's on the hook too.

I've some sympathy for the dealers. Often they've gotten these cars as trade-ins and just want to move them on. To do the checking that would find every nascent flaw would take too much time to be worth doing when they're only going to sell the car for a grand or so. I think the NCT is a boon in these cases. If the dealer puts it through the test, then he has a bit of paper that says the vehicle is "road worthy", and that's probably about as much as you can expect at the €1k end of the market.

Of course, practically, I'd expect to have no come-back on a dealer on a car I bought for €1k, so I'd treat it like a private sale. The exception would be if there was an accident that could be linked back to a fault hidden or missed by the dealer. In such a case, the enlarged size of the claim could force the dealer back onto the hook.

VincePP

blade1 wrote: »

I don't know much about buying off dealers as i don't do it myself.
So this could be a stupid question?:pac:
Is trade sale supposed to be between people in the trade?
If not where did the term trade sale come from?

Yes it is usually is a sale between 2 dealers, but it can be a sale to a consumer. It would be normal for the car to be roadworthy. - If not roadworthy thjis is usually stated as "for breaking" or similar.

When "trade sale" term is used both parties know that no warranty exists and the item is sold "as seen".

For consumers a dealer will normally state this (as is the case here) as a consumer would not necessarily understand trade terminology.

From the description the car is in roadworthy use now and has a current NCT (but a NCT is just a snapshot of the car on the day of the NCT), however as a 14 year old car it MAY develop issues quickly that are not known now - its those issues that are not covered. The clutch could give up tomorrow - but you simply cannot forsee that, same with alternator or electrics.

A friend of mine got a 00 merc 190 over a year ago on a "trade sale" for €500. Passed 2nd NCT in March with flying colours and only thing she's done is put fuel in the tank and a basic service since buying. Yes it costs a lot to tax, but she has a fab safe car and she doesn;lt give a damn about the year.

Effectively once a car is over 10 years old its considered by the trade at "end of life" - but a well kept car can go on for many years afterwards.

Look at the service record and general condition of the car and check online if there are known issues with the make model and year.

If you want peace of mind, buy it with the warranty.

grogi

acronym Chilli wrote: »

I can understand that approach. I've bought 2 cars lately at the ca. 1000 price, in each case from a dealer of some sort (one large-ish 2nd hand dealer, one small 2nd hand dealer). In each case, they marked the receipt "trade sale / as-seen", but didn't sell it "as broken".

If the car's sold by a dealer, to a member of the public, then I don't think "trade sale"/"as seen" is actually legally enforceable unless it's really sold to a member of the trade, or the faults with the car are such that they are clearly visible to a member of the public (e.g. damaged interior, damaged body-panels, paint-flaws, cracked windscreen). The next level of flaws would be one's that a diligent but untrained punter could find by systematic checking (e.g. electric window regulator, missing spare wheel, bulbs out, etc.,). A further level would be stuff that few "punters" would spot without bring a mechanic (e.g. corroded brake lines, worn wheel-bearings or track-rods, CV joint leaking, etc.,).
If there's something wrong with the car that's not disclosed, then definitely the dealer is legally on the hook. If the dealer didn't know about the fault, but could reasonably have found it if he had looked, he's on the hook too.

As much as I love living in Ireland and Irish people, I am often shocked by the lack of professionalism in Irish industries. This is another example of it. If the dealer wants the implicit warranty lifted, there are a few conditions to complete - and they are not if it only states 'as-seen/trade sale' in the receipt. As you've seen - the dealership is opening itself for legal trouble.

I've some sympathy for the dealers. Often they've gotten these cars as trade-ins and just want to move them on. To do the checking that would find every nascent flaw would take too much time to be worth doing when they're only going to sell the car for a grand or so. I think the NCT is a boon in these cases. If the dealer puts it through the test, then he has a bit of paper that says the vehicle is "road worthy", and that's probably about as much as you can expect at the €1k end of the market.

Of course, practically, I'd expect to have no come-back on a dealer on a car I bought for €1k, so I'd treat it like a private sale. The exception would be if there was an accident that could be linked back to a fault hidden or missed by the dealer. In such a case, the enlarged size of the claim could force the dealer back onto the hook.

I don't have sympathy at all. If the guy is any good, he looks at the car and know immediately where the body was repaired etc.

That's their business in the end and they should know better. Know how to spot faulty cars and know how to cover themselves.

Typically it is the main dealer that gets such car as part of the scrappage deal and sells such car to the not-so-main dealer. For peanuts. Really peanuts. But nobody is pushing anyone to buy a car like that.

VincePP

grogi wrote: »

Can sell whatever they want if the buyer is aware of the condition.

True

blade1 wrote: »

Grogi,do you think it's reasonable that a buyer should expect a €1200 car to get them home from the the garage they just got the car from?
So if it broke down a mile down the road they would have no comeback?
I would have thought that it's not the same as buying privately no matter what the dealer says.

If the garage points out anything that si wrong or needs fixing, then the garage is covered entirely.

In the case of this car, the garage is stating that the car is roadworthy, so the sale of good act would apply, however anything that was not known at time of sale and goes wrong from time the car leaves the garage would not be covered - such as gearbox, alternator, clutch etc as no-one knows when these can go.
A warranty will cover these unforseen issues. As a second hand car, the sale of goods act would not necessarily cover unforseen issues even if they happened the day after.

acronym Chilli

grogi wrote: »

I don't have sympathy at all. If the guy is any good, he looks at the car and know immediately where the body was repaired etc.

That's their business in the end and they should know better. Know how to spot faulty cars and know how to cover themselves.

Typically it is the main dealer that gets such car as part of the scrappage deal and sells such car to the not-so-main dealer. For peanuts. Really peanuts. But nobody is pushing anyone to buy a car like that.

I know what you mean, and agree with above.
Where I have a little sympathy is where a dealer sells a car that looks and is fine, and then a week after sale the coil-pack gives up the ghost. The repair may now kill the deal for the dealer, and turn the whole thing into a very complicated sale. I think for such cheap cars the buyer needs to take the risk on stuff like that but many will be beating a path back to the dealer.

RE your point that the dealers leave themselves open. you're absolutely right. I'd say they do it to avoid getting into complicated discussions with buyers, but ultimately they do both themselves and the buyers a disservice. (Buyer doesn't understand fully what the dealer is trying to do, and dealer hasn't truly managed to step away from the responsibility as he would like).

VincePP wrote: »

True

If the garage points out anything that si wrong or needs fixing, then the garage is covered entirely.
<snip>
A warranty will cover these unforseen issues. As a second hand car, the sale of goods act would not necessarily cover unforseen issues even if they happened the day after.

I think if the dealer could reasonably have found out about them, then the sale of goods act could still apply. i.e. to prevent the dealer "protecting" himself by just not looking for the problems (if I don't look underneath for corrosion, I can't be blamed for not notifying it). If it ever did end up in court there'd be a "reasonableness" argument. Equally with the truly unforeseeable stuff (e.g. capacitor blows in the electrics), the dealer could still be held responsible for that though I'd expect there to be debate (e.g. if it's a true safety/roadworthy issue, stronger case; if it's an old car, weaker case as buyer should expect failures more rapidly, etc.,).