33 Kwh BMW I3 Battery official !

https://www.press.bmwgroup.com/global/article/detail/T0259480EN/more-range-high-level-dynamic-performance:-bmw-i-expands-its-model-range-for-the-bmw-i3-bmw-i3-94-ah-with-more-powerful-battery-delivers-a-range-of-up-to-200-kilometres-under-everyday-conditions

The prices of the BMW i3 models in Germany are:

BMW i3 (60Ah): 34.950€ (BEV), 39.950€ (REX)
BMW i3 (94Ah): 36.150€ (BEV) , 41.150€ (REX)

So with the VRT it's possible the price could be closer to 40 K ?

We really need the Government to eliminate VRT altogether for electrics.

This is a good improvement but it's expensive, Considering the Model 3 with a real 300 km range will cost 35 K USD which would be about 35K Euro's after VRT and Grant, only thing is the Model 3 won't be available until at least 2020 to those who have not paid a deposit, unless Tesla can make create miracles too. Nissan have sold just over 200,000 Leafs since late 2011.

Bigus

http://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/new-cars/bmw-i3-gets-new-battery-and-big-boost-its-range

The new Samsung lithium ion battery will also be fitted in the i3 Range Extender model. This gives the petrol-electric hybrid an official overall range of up to 276 miles with a full charge and full, nine-litre tank of fuel. However, BMW says the range of the fully electric i3 is realistically 125 miles with the air-con or heater on. No real-world figure is given for the Range Extender.

11 Kw AC charging is impressive, take note Nissan.

So say 160-180-possibly 200 Kms real life driving, (all depends on the usable Kwh) and another year electrics will be available with a lot more range, I would not buy this in late 2016, you'd be kicking yourself ! Question is though how much will these 300 km range electrics cost , even from Nissan ?

How long until the Ampera-E is available, due 2017 with 300-340 kms ? Opel Ireland say they're not interested but I doubt they will let this one slip by !

KCross

The things that jump out at me here are:

1) BMW are making sure their existing owners are aware that they can retrofit this new battery to their existing i3 thus maintaining the value of existing i3's. I hope Nissan follow this path because newer, larger batteries will either cost significantly more to buy thus pushing it out of the reach of most or else they keep the price much the same and allow a retrofit which will keep the residual values up. This is clever by BMW and shows they care about their existing customers. Im not sure Nissan have the same attitude, here's hoping.

2) The gross/net capacities of the old and new batteries need explaining to me. The existing i3 has 21.6/18.8 (2.8 diff) and the new one will have 33.2/27.2(6 diff). Why is the net figure for the 94Ah i3 so "low". What is that extra 3kWh's being used for that it is not made available for range?

3) The tyre width is narrow (155/70 R19). I presume the road holding of the i3 is excellent. How does it do that with such narrow tyres relative to the LEAF?

4) With the increased battery density the weight of the car has gone up by 40kg and the 0-100 is very marginally decreased. Does this suggest that the 30kWh LEAF and this new i3 have reached close to the max capacity they can get with these cars without seriously affecting performance? It seems to me the next generation of EV's wont be the current LEAF and i3 but would need to be an entirely new design that can take the weight of larger batteries and increase the power of the motor to keep the performance in line. Without a major breakthrough in battery tech it seems unlikely you could get 60kWh into the existing LEAF or i3? I'd say the 60kWh batteries will be for SUV type vehicles where they have more space to play with.

stesaurus

What's worrying is the increase in fast charging time. 40 mins to 80% compared to 25 minutes in the 22Kwh. So they are not as confident as Nissan are with drawing bigger currents for longer like with the 30Kwh Leaf. Considering the i3 has better thermal management that seems odd.

There is always a few Kwh hidden by the battery's management system (BMS) because it's better for the battery if it doesn't receive too much deep cycles.

As battery tech improves they'll be able to use more of this reserve.

The Leaf hides 2 Kwh which isn't a lot but even at that there is still 7% hidden from the driver so at 20% you have actually 27% left. Which isn't a lot either but you'd be surprised how much you can squeeze out of 7% if you really had to.

Fast charge times probably have not increased for the I3 because there are very few if any faster than 45 Kw Fast chargers in Europe and the battery might not be able to take a higher charge current or (C Rate) due to the altered chemistry, with batteries there is always compromises.

Nissan have demonstrated a 60 kwh Leaf that actually does not take up much more space, it's a bit taller. Nissan most likely will increase torque to account for any more weight but I doubt they will actually improve the 0-60 which would be a terrible shame.

It remains unknown whether Nissan will allow battery upgrades but for now they don't and 60 Kwh would be impossible to mount in the current Leaf but perhaps 40 Kwh could with the next Gen battery.

BoatMad

I don't think battery upgrades are necessary. Merely having reasonably priced replacement packs would be better.

Nissan Ireland expect the 2018 leaf ( probably with a facelift ) to be 40 kWh. I personally believe 60kw will be a new additional Nissan EV model, my bets are on a crossover. I don't think we'll see a 60 kW leaf ( as in that price point ) anytime soon , if ever

I was told today that the Nissan EV van. Uses the air conditioner to divert cold air to cool the batteries during fast charging.

KCross

BoatMad wrote: »

I don't think battery upgrades are necessary. Merely having reasonably priced replacement packs would be better.

What's the difference?

An upgrade is taking your 24kWh and putting in a 40kWh. Replacing the packs is the same thing, is it not?

cros13

Deleted User wrote: »

Fast charge times probably have not increased for the I3 because there are very few if any faster than 45 Kw Fast chargers in Europe and the battery might not be able to take a higher charge current or (C Rate) due to the altered chemistry, with batteries there is always compromises.

The pack can take greater than 50kW rapid charging or a more aggressive charging profile... but the cables from the CCS socket aren't rated for it. They were trying to save on weight.

BoatMad wrote: »

I don't think battery upgrades are necessary. Merely having reasonably priced replacement packs would be better.

For the moment it's important that we get credit for the old pack. There's not exactly a huge secondary market for EV packs if the OEM doesn't have a structured program.

BoatMad wrote: »

Nissan Ireland expect the 2018 leaf ( probably with a facelift ) to be 40 kWh. I personally believe 60kw will be a new additional Nissan EV model, my bets are on a crossover. I don't think we'll see a 60 kW leaf ( as in that price point ) anytime soon , if ever

The 60kWh is almost certainly coming in a new Leaf. I was told there would be three pack choices at different price points and the 60kWh would be the last to launch. There is also a new electric Nissan Note coming this year and a crossover next year.

BoatMad wrote: »

I was told today that the Nissan EV van. Uses the air conditioner to divert cold air to cool the batteries during fast charging.

It does. The reason why the 30kWh pack is not available for the eNV200 until summer is building packs with that cooling system.

The reason Nissan built that into the design is the anticipated greater use of rapid charging. If you buy four or more eNV200s you get a free DBT 50kW rapid for your premises.

BoatMad

KCross wrote: »

What's the difference?

An upgrade is taking your 24kWh and putting in a 40kWh. Replacing the packs is the same thing, is it not?

An ugrade is upping the battery capacity , a replacement is exchanging a new one for the old one of the same capacity

I see no car company offering to take out your 1.6 l and replace it with a 2l

BoatMad

new Leaf. I was told there would be three pack choices at different price points and the 60kWh would be the last to launch. There is also a new electric Nissan Note coming this year and a crossover next year.

I'll believe it when I see it , I suspect the 60 kWh price point will take the car out of that sector of car markets . Much more likely to see a 60 kWh in a more expensive class of car. The indications I have from Nissan is the next leaf will be 40 or 45 kWh and the 30 kWh will be a base battery model

Two things can't happen together, bringing out a 60 kWh leaf with similar , albeit inflation adjusted pricing to the existing 30 kWh, would blow up residuals , something no car manufacturer wants.

Alternatively looking for a premium , will move the retail price out of the market segment

I have no doubt we'll see a 60 kWh from Nissan , just not perhaps in a leaf

KCross

BoatMad wrote: »

An ugrade is upping the battery capacity , a replacement is exchanging a new one for the old one of the same capacity

I see no car company offering to take out your 1.6 l and replace it with a 2l

How can you up the capacity of your existing battery? My understanding is that once its degraded you have to take it out and replace it with a new one.

You can of course change individual cells but thats not an upgrade or upping the capacity. That just fixing a broken cell.

The upgrade that I am talking about is where you take out the entire 24kWh pack and replace it with the latest and greatest at the time... for a cost of course.

This is what the i3 has just announced which is akin to your example of taking out the 1.6l and replacing with a 2.0l. Im hoping Nissan follow suit with that by keeping the battery dimensions the same so that a swap is possible.

peposhi

KCross wrote: »

How can you up the capacity of your existing battery? My understanding is that once its degraded you have to take it out and replace it with a new one.

You can of course change individual cells but thats not an upgrade or upping the capacity. That just fixing a broken cell.

The upgrade that I am talking about is where you take out the entire 24kWh pack and replace it with the latest and greatest at the time... for a cost of course.

This is what the i3 has just announced which is akin to your example of taking out the 1.6l and replacing with a 2.0l. Im hoping Nissan follow suit with that by keeping the battery dimensions the same so that a swap is possible.

To swap an 1.6l with a 2.0l is quite complicated, involves a lot of adjustments and requires a tons of skilled labour. To my knowledge it would be very similar case for an EV to get a battery swap unles the whole system is universally designed to take on 2-3 sizes of battery (like a DeWalt drill for example).

KCross

peposhi wrote: »

To swap an 1.6l with a 2.0l is quite complicated, involves a lot of adjustments and requires a tons of skilled labour. To my knowledge it would be very similar case for an EV to get a battery swap unles the whole system is universally designed to take on 2-3 sizes of battery (like a DeWalt drill for example).

If the i3 can do it, no reason why the LEAF cant.... if Nissan want to, it just requires some forward planning and testing which we know isnt Nissan's best attribute!

In theory a battery swap should be simple if the two packs are the same dimension. Disconnect, pull it out, put in the new one, update the car software and away you go.

BoatMad

KCross wrote: »

How can you up the capacity of your existing battery? My understanding is that once its degraded you have to take it out and replace it with a new one.

You can of course change individual cells but thats not an upgrade or upping the capacity. That just fixing a broken cell.

The upgrade that I am talking about is where you take out the entire 24kWh pack and replace it with the latest and greatest at the time... for a cost of course.

This is what the i3 has just announced which is akin to your example of taking out the 1.6l and replacing with a 2.0l. Im hoping Nissan follow suit with that by keeping the battery dimensions the same so that a swap is possible.

Yes and going forward I don't expect many manufacturers to offer upgrades as opposed to replacements

BoatMad

BoatMad wrote: »

I don't think battery upgrades are necessary. Merely having reasonably priced replacement packs would be better.

Nissan Ireland expect the 2018 leaf ( probably with a facelift ) to be 40 kWh. I personally believe 60kw will be a new additional Nissan EV model, my bets are on a crossover. I don't think we'll see a 60 kW leaf ( as in that price point ) anytime soon , if ever

I was told today that the Nissan EV van. Uses the air conditioner to divert cold air to cool the batteries during fast charging.

Yes they cool the pack in the van probably because they though the van would be doing harder work, pulling heavy loads etc.

Nissan need to compete with the other electric cars around so if the Ampera-E costs 35K for 60 Kwh and Nissan can't match , then they're in trouble and I'm sure they're aware of this. And any other EV at that time will also have to compete.

They will need to reduce prices.

I really can't see the 2018 Leaf being a face lift, it's too old and they whole chassis will need to be redesigned to accommodate larger than 40 Kwh.

It would make a lot of sense if they continued to make the existing model, re-brand it give that a face lift and sell it cheaper with the 30 Kwh as the base battery.