6 Month warranty only from retailer

lightspeed

Hi Im interested in buying a microsoft surface tablet which seem to be priced around €1000.

I found a small shop in Dublin selling it advertised as new for €100 less.

The main thing that has me weary is that they will only give a 6 month warranty.

I pointed out that under EU law all electrical products must come with a 2 year warranty and they say that i can still claim for the remainder from the manufacturer directly.

It has always been my understanding that the retailer must honour the warranty of a product for its full amount.

I am also a little suspicious as to how a small shop can afford to sell it at significantly less than all the other larger retailers but that may not be anything to worry about as maybe they willing to take a shorter mark up.

Am i mistaken on the above?

Tigger

Profit on a €1000 tablet is probably €300
Tablet would cost around €500 ex vat and then the profit is €300 and vat makes €1000
They are happy with €220 profit so that explains that
You are right about the two years thing as Apple have to give two years on iPhones here even tho they only give 1 year in other areas
If it's a genuine tablet from an established retailer I'd be happy enough

MarkAnthony

lightspeed wrote: »

Am i mistaken on the above?

Yes. Specifically:

lightspeed wrote: »

I pointed out that under EU law all electrical products must come with a 2 year warranty...

Rather than giving free law lectures, wrong ones as it turns out, buy somewhere else.

lightspeed

Thanks

http://www.apple.com/ie/legal/statutory-warranty/

In the case of Apple, it says the following:

"When you purchase Apple hardware products, you will also receive coverage from the Apple One-Year Limited Warranty. This coverage operates alongside and in addition to your statutory rights under Irish consumer law".

As EU directive requires a 2 year warranty as a minimum on electrical products, Id assume that to be 3 years in total, yet they also sell a 3 year warranty under their AppleCare or Apple + protection plan.

I downloaded the warranty terms and conditions for MS surface pro from their website and it specifically states only 1 year warranty.

However, also states the following:

"This Warranty is distinct from any statutory product warrantees owed by retailers, resellers, and/or manufacturers under any national law applicable to You. It is intended to grant You specific, and as the case may be, additional rights, within the limits of what is permissible under such law, and not to restrict your rights under applicable statutory product warrantee provisions. It cannot be transferred to any third party".


It seems the 2 year EU warranty takes prominence over manufacturer warranty. I guess the above warranty is only relevant to people who purchase from continents and countries where there is no provision in national law for a minimum warranty of at least a year.

However, the cynic in me makes me believe that Apple and Microsoft and the likes deliberately advertise one year law with the above legal disclaimer in the small print in the hope that people wont realise they entitled to 2 years in the EU at least.

lightspeed

MarkAnthony wrote: »

Yes. Specifically:

Rather than giving free law lectures, wrong ones as it turns out, buy somewhere else.

"Sellers of consumer goods within the EU are obliged to guarantee the conformity of the goods with a contract, for a period of two years after the delivery of the goods".

http://ec.europa.eu/consumers/consumer_rights/rights-contracts/sales-guarantee/index_en.htm

or here also:

"Under EU rules you always have the right to a minimum 2-year guarantee at no cost. This 2-year guarantee is your minimum right. National rules in your country may give you extra protection: however, any deviation from EU rules must always be in the consumer's best interest.
If goods you bought anywhere in the EU turn out to be faulty or do not look or work as advertised, the seller must repair or replace them free of charge or give you a price reduction or a full refund.
As a general rule, you will only be able to ask for a partial or full refund when it is not possible to repair or replace the goods."


http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/guarantees-returns/index_en.htm


The above are more freebies, but i may have to charge you for the law lectures going forward.

MarkAnthony

You may want to sit a few classes first yourself on how EU directives become law in the member states.

Putting that aside for a moment the law in Ireland dictating the length you may sue under contract is limited to six years is found under the Statute of Limitations. Applying common sense for a moment given your concern that a small company might be operating at a very tight margin one would have thought it was obvious that it might not be around in six months let alone six years. I'd point you in the direction of some resources of separate legal personality and limited liability but I reckon it'll be a while until you've worked through that EU stuff.

For your enlightenment and reading:

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1957/act/6/enacted/en/html

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1980/act/16/enacted/en/html

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/2003/si/11/made/en/print

Incidentally warranty in this case does not mean what you think it means and a manufacturer is under no obligation to supply a guarantee beyond what is stated in the Sales of Goods Acts.

EDIT: I apologise for being a little sharp but this 2 year EU warranty nonsense is a particular bee in my bonnet and having worked in retail for the better part of two decades before deciding career criminals were much nicer to deal with than customers especially as soon as the customer uttered the words, "I know my rights".

whippet

Tigger wrote: »

Profit on a €1000 tablet is probably €300
Tablet would cost around €500 ex vat and then the profit is €300 and vat makes €1000
They are happy with €220 profit so that explains that
You are right about the two years thing as Apple have to give two years on iPhones here even tho they only give 1 year in other areas
If it's a genuine tablet from an established retailer I'd be happy enough

The retailer margin on a Surface is nothing like €300 .. I know this for a fact. for the entry level surface the margin would probably be approx €80-100.

There are only a couple of official Surface resellers in Ireland .. So I would doubt a small retailer would be an authorised outlet.

I would question the providence of the machine in question .. Especially considering the vendor won't honour even the standard MS warranty on it.

Is it a current model? Or is it a older unit ?

ted1

Tigger wrote: »

Profit on a 1000 tablet is probably 300
Tablet would cost around 500 ex vat and then the profit is 300 and vat makes 1000
They are happy with 220 profit so that explains that
You are right about the two years thing as Apple have to give two years on iPhones here even tho they only give 1 year in other areas
If it's a genuine tablet from an established retailer I'd be happy enough

Mark up on electrical goods is 5% stop your nonsense

mickoneill31

A manufacturer can offer whatever warranty they want. If it's better than your statutory rights then great. If it's worse then, well, you have your statutory rights.

Then you can restrict yourself to the EU two years. It's a good ply by Apple above. They say the EU law is two years. It is. They don't mention the Irish law so people probably look at two years and think that's it (there are some examples of that on this thread). It must save Apple a fortune.

Or you can use the Irish Sale Of Goods Act. Which doesn't specify a time limit. Goods must last a reasonable length of time. What that time is, is open to interpretation. If you and the retailer don't agree you can open a case in the small claims court. Like somebody mentioned above though if the retailer disappears then all you have is the warranty.

Greenmachine

Is it a reconditioned product perchance?

faceman

I'm not in the legal profession but I can offer a view from experience.

I recently had an iPhone that was 18 months old develop a problem and apple's 1 year warranty was up. I still got my phone replaced free of charge under the sale of goods act however by the retailer much to their annoyance.

You're covered for 2 years under law assuming any faults that develop are not of your making. However you must take it up with the retailer you purchased the goods from, not the manufacturer.

Long story short, the retailer wouldn't replace my phone so i escalated it and their legal department got involved. Replacement phone was dispatched. (Of course your only entitled to a repair but with Apple products they're generally just replaced)


Incidentally most retail employees aren't aware of the law around this. Guy in the shop thought I was spoofing. :rolleyes:

L1011

faceman wrote: »

I'm not in the legal profession

It shows - there's no "2 year" law here as the EU law everyone reads about online was never brought in to effect here.

Read the other posts on the thread.

faceman

L1011 wrote: »

It shows - there's no "2 year" law here as the EU law everyone reads about online was never brought in to effect here.

Read the other posts on the thread.

lol. You seem lovely. How's your day?

Read my post again. I'm quoting from experience which involved getting assistance from consumer affairs. (Or Consumer Help as they're known now)

L1011

faceman wrote: »

lol. You seem lovely. How's your day?

Read my post again. I'm quoting from experience which involved getting assistance from consumer affairs. (Or Consumer Help as they're known now)

You stated there was a law that doesn't exist

Fred Swanson

This post has been deleted.

Tigger

ted1 wrote: »

Mark up on electrical goods is 5% stop your nonsense

on phones or other items that have recurring fees maybe but not on a tablet
5% margin on €1000 is €45 profit
no one is operating selling equipment lite that at those margins

whippet

Tigger wrote: »

on phones or other items that have recurring fees maybe but not on a tablet
5% margin on €1000 is €45 profit
no one is operating selling equipment lite that at those margins

Yes they are.

The retailer margin on Surface products are about 7% .. Apple products (depending on the retailer's competency with Apple) are between 4-13% - this will be swallowed up by the need to have certain expensive conditions met.

I know as I have direct experience with such channel relstionships.

L1011

Tigger wrote: »

on phones or other items that have recurring fees maybe but not on a tablet
5% margin on €1000 is €45 profit
no one is operating selling equipment lite that at those margins

5% is quite good on tablets - it can be even less.

Retailers don't get the recurring fees.

You don't know what you're talking about.

Tigger

i'm a retailler??

L1011

Tigger wrote: »

i'm a retailler??

If you think the margins are that much, you clearly aren't - of electronics anyway.

Tigger

RS or maplin sell electronics
what we are discussing are electronic goods

lightspeed

Greenmachine wrote: »

Is it a reconditioned product perchance?

I was in the store today and they say no its not refurbished and brand new. In addition, they give a free microsoft typecover which is €150 elsewhere.

With student discount on microsoft website, I can get surface pro 4 intel m version, 4gb ram, 128gb hard drive at €926 without typecover and €1055 with typecover.

However, this store are selling the intel m version new with typecover for €799 and the i5 version for €899 with typecover.

So if we take the m version for example and compare without student discount, its €1029 + €150 for typecover = €1179

Small store price: €799

That is a price difference of €380 !!!.

She took it off the shelf and showed it to me saying its still sealed in box. The sleeve cover of the box had a sticker but it seem to peel off with ease as if it was not first time it opened. She peel off the sticker on the box which looked like first time it was removed to show me the actual tablet and contents.

It all looked fine except there seemed to be a hair and a small air bubble trapped under the screen protector.

Even if it was refurbished, if it had a year gaurantee which is same what is advertised from getting it new at any other large retail store or direct from microsoft, at the price difference im thinking its worth it.

Im also relying on the fact that ill be protected under irish consumer law again for at least a year which is same as if i get elsewhere. It is a lot of money to put down for a tablet and not an absolutely necessary purchase, just an item i want and would hope to get the use out of.

L1011

Tigger wrote: »

RS or maplin sell electronics
what we are discussing are electronic goods

Splitting hairs. I would consider electronic components to be a subset of electronics if you do want to get in ridiculous pedantry, though.

You don't sell consumer electronics if you think the margins are 40%. Drop the zero and you're closer.

Selling fridges and get a cut on the extended warranty != selling mobile phones.

Sleeper12

MarkAnthony wrote:

You may want to sit a few classes first yourself on how EU directives become law in the member states.

There is a lot of miss information on this thread.
The 2 year EU warranty doesn't exist. At least not in Ireland

A retailer doesn't have to give any warranty at all. Neither does a manifacture. They offer these off their own bat.

We have the wonderful sale of goods act. This can give you anywhere up to 6 years warranty. Depending on the type of goods you buy.
Have you ever wondered why when you buy let's say a TV you get a warranty registration card that you send in but when you read the small print it's only for the UK? That's because all you need is your proof of purchase here in Ireland to qualify for the sale of goods act. There is no such thing as having to register for the sale of goods act.
Any warranty offered here by the manufacturer is on top of the sale of goods act not instead of.

lightspeed

Sleeper12 wrote: »

There is a lot of miss information on this thread.
The 2 year EU warranty doesn't exist. At least not in Ireland

A retailer doesn't have to give any warranty at all. Neither does a manifacture. They offer these off their own bat.

We have the wonderful sale of goods act. This can give you anywhere up to 6 years warranty. Depending on the type of goods you buy.
Have you ever wondered why when you buy let's say a TV you get a warranty registration card that you send in but when you read the small print it's only for the UK? That's because all you need is your proof of purchase here in Ireland to qualify for the sale of goods act. There is no such thing as having to register for the sale of goods act.
Any warranty offered here by the manufacturer is on top of the sale of goods act not instead of.

Ok can you or anyone else clarify if the 6 year warranty is in fact a warranty as my understanding from reading up on it was that you have 6 years if something does not conform to its description, i.e. you buy a laptop advertised with 250gb hard drive and it had only 150gb etc.

My understanding is that is 6 years only for above regarding conforming to item being as described but not against wear breaking down.

Surely if that was the case, that means a washing machine for example would have gaurantee of 6 years against breaking down. Same could also be said for a car although oddly enough people seem to quite easily willing not to enforce their rights when buying used cars even from a garage. Last car i bought from garage for example came with only 6 months engine cover and this seems common among garages.

L1011

6 years to enforce consumer rights - fit for purpose, free of manufacturing defects, etc. NOT a 6 year warranty.

Tigger

lightspeed wrote: »

I was in the store today and they say no its not refurbished and brand new. In addition, they give a free microsoft typecover which is €150 elsewhere.

With student discount on microsoft website, I can get surface pro 4 intel m version, 4gb ram, 128gb hard drive at €926 without typecover and €1055 with typecover.

However, this store are selling the intel m version new with typecover for €799 and the i5 version for €899 with typecover.

So if we take the m version for example and compare without student discount, its €1029 + €150 for typecover = €1179

Small store price: €799

That is a price difference of €380 !!!.

She took it off the shelf and showed it to me saying its still sealed in box. The sleeve cover of the box had a sticker but it seem to peel off with ease as if it was not first time it opened. She peel off the sticker on the box which looked like first time it was removed to show me the actual tablet and contents.

It all looked fine except there seemed to be a hair and a small air bubble trapped under the screen protector.

Even if it was refurbished, if it had a year gaurantee which is same what is advertised from getting it new at any other large retail store or direct from microsoft, at the price difference im thinking its worth it.

Im also relying on the fact that ill be protected under irish consumer law again for at least a year which is same as if i get elsewhere. It is a lot of money to put down for a tablet and not an absolutely necessary purchase, just an item i want and would hope to get the use out of.

L1011 wrote: »

Splitting hairs. I would consider electronic components to be a subset of electronics if you do want to get in ridiculous pedantry, though.

You don't sell consumer electronics if you think the margins are 40%. Drop the zero and you're closer.

Selling fridges and get a cut on the extended warranty != selling mobile phones.

so is the above price because they are selling dodgy goods or because they are selling at a €330 loss?

L1011

Tigger wrote: »

so is the above price because they are selling dodgy goods or because they are selling at a €330 loss?

Refurbished without stating so or stolen goods.

If there was that retailer margin you would have countless retailers selling them at that price, favouring volume over margin. You don't.

Tigger

L1011 wrote: »

Refurbished without stating so or stolen goods.

If there was that retailer margin you would have countless retailers selling them at that price, favouring volume over margin. You don't.

or a generous rebate agreement
turnover is vanity
profit is sanity

lightspeed

L1011 wrote: »

Refurbished without stating so or stolen goods.

If there was that retailer margin you would have countless retailers selling them at that price, favouring volume over margin. You don't.

I did ask if could register warranty with microsoft and she said could and said i just give them the serial number. I found a section for that on microsoft webiste.

Id assume if buy it and then find it refurbished when i try register it, they would have to give me my money back.

L1011

Tigger wrote: »

or a generous rebate agreement

With one device in stock reopened and closed repeatedly, they aren't shifting the volume to get such. They are also next to non-existent in consumer electronics - Microsofts were in the region of a tenner a go if you had medium volume the last time I was involved with them.

lightspeed

L1011 wrote: »

6 years to enforce consumer rights - fit for purpose, free of manufacturing defects, etc. NOT a 6 year warranty.

Then what exactly is the difference between a warranty and the above 6 year entitlement to enforce consumer rights?

From the sound of it if I have a 1 year warranty, I have six years to enforce my right to redress on condition that the issue arose no later than 1 year.

If after 1 year there is an issue and I try to enforce my right to redress as item is faulty, do i need to prove that the issue arose within the time frame of the warranty?

L1011

lightspeed wrote: »

Then what exactly is the difference between a warranty and the above 6 year entitlement to enforce consumer rights?

From the sound of it if I have a 1 year warranty, I have six years to enforce my right to redress on condition that the issue arose no later than 1 year.

If after 1 year there is an issue and I try to enforce my right to redress as item is faulty, do i need to prove that the issue arose within the time frame of the warranty?

A warranty is an offer by the manufacturer. This can be inferior or superior to your consumer rights. They are not connected. Ignore the idea of 1 year in relation to consumer rights.

To take a case under consumer regulation you would need to show that the defect was there from the start / is related to a design fault - often not very hard, particularly with anything with software. I've had a camcorder repaired for a CCD failure 5 years after purchase due to it being a known design fault and a DVD/VHS twin recorder (yes, this was ages ago) replaced after 3 for similar.

Tigger

lightspeed wrote: »

Then what exactly is the difference between a warranty and the above 6 year entitlement to enforce consumer rights?

From the sound of it if I have a 1 year warranty, I have six years to enforce my right to redress on condition that the issue arose no later than 1 year.

If after 1 year there is an issue and I try to enforce my right to redress as item is faulty, do i need to prove that the issue arose within the time frame of the warranty?

you have six years to claim that the product failed to meet the sale of goods and services standards
as far as i remember a judge once said a TV should last 6 years
depends on how long a thing should be perceived to last in the eyes of the judicary
it will be out of date in three years anyway so you aresafe enough if it is new (there are people on this thread that think its not)

MarkAnthony

6 years is all well and good but it's enforceable only against the contracting party. It seems to me that the situation here is that the retailer won't be around for very long. Goods are expected to last a reasonable amount of time, hence why the EU directive in unworkable and has been taken to mean a minimum limitation period. Is a cheap paper kite supposed to last as long as a marble statue?

On a practical level if the thing works when you switch it on, it'll probably keep working. Certainly if it's been working for six months it's unlikely to just go wrong one day. However if it's too good to be true, it usually is it's probably a refurb or second hand.

Sleeper12

lightspeed wrote:

Ok can you or anyone else clarify if the 6 year warranty is in fact a warranty as my understanding from reading up on it was that you have 6 years if something does not conform to its description, i.e. you buy a laptop advertised with 250gb hard drive and it had only 150gb etc.

lightspeed wrote:

My understanding is that is 6 years only for above regarding conforming to item being as described but not against wear breaking down.

lightspeed wrote:

Surely if that was the case, that means a washing machine for example would have gaurantee of 6 years against breaking down. Same could also be said for a car although oddly enough people seem to quite easily willing not to enforce their rights when buying used cars even from a garage. Last car i bought from garage for example came with only 6 months engine cover and this seems common among garages.

Sorry I was trying to simplify by saying up to 6 years warranty. Its not quite like that. It covers manufacturer defects and not wear and tear. Having said that most manufacturers warranty does not cover wear and tear either. Triton give a 2 year parts and Labour warranty on electric showers but it excludes limescale damage. The shower pole isn't covered because if it breaks its wear and tear.

Under the sale of goods act it takes into account the expected lifespan of the product you bought and the price you paid for it. You might expect 5 to 10 years from a 50" standard LCD display if you paid 500 plus for it but if you got a no brand 50" for 200 you could hope for 10 years but expect maybe as little as 2 years. So if your 500 Euro t.v. fails from a manufacturer defect after 3 or 4 years it could be covered under the sale of goods act but the 200 Euro tv wouldn't.

A manufacturers warranty is handy because it offers a no quibble quick solution (in theory). This warranty is offered on top of and not instead of the sale of goods act.

Your contact is always with the shop not the manufacturer so if manufacture messes you about the retailer has to step up.