"Parking Protected" Cycle Lanes

patrickbrophy18

I saw a plan at The Journal website here. Finally, a cycling plan for the City Center that makes sense. It is apparently going to be streamlined across many of Dublin's key streets. Hopefully, there will be proper enforcement to stop cars from actually parking on the cycle lanes. While the proposal is good (for the most part), the hatch marking separating the parking spaces from the cycle lane should instead be a grass verge.

Atlantic Dawn

It would need the level of enforement where any vehicle parked on it is just towed away to some compound and owner can collect on their own time, simply putting parking tickets on them won't work.

LeinsterDub

When you consider the only capital investment required for the entire network is paint, it is a no-brainer.

Yup that's about the scope of Irish cycling infrastructure. Sure paint a white line on the ground it'll be grand and we can pretend to have 1000's of k on cycle lanes

Would reducing traffic lanes not just make the city a tad more congested, though, no?

I know this is a cycling forum, so there will be an obvious bias towards cycling, but by and large, the city is used by cars. I can understand the idea of getting people to stop driving unnecesaraily into the city, and doing this is a way of promoting cycling instead of driving, but surely it makes less sense than spending an exquivalent money on public transport, no?

Anyone that's not currently cycling to work, won't be. I think it would be a fair comment that ireland is too cold, wet and windy in general, for the everyday joe soap to bother cycling in. There has to be a will. Obviously on a forum like this, everyone's an enthusiast cyclist and would take great pleasure in removing all traffic minus emergency vehicles from the city, and replacing it with cyclists, but from a realistic point of view, is it not making things a tad worse in the grand scheme (as the majority of users in the city are using car, and regardless of how many bike lanes you put in, they will remain in their cars).


Maybe I'm missing something though. Perhaps this is gonna be one of those things they'll come back to in 3 years and see if it made any difference?


(or am i misreading it altogether? Is it more for cyclist safety in these specific areas, rather than promoting cycling in general?).



(I say this as someone who does a bit of work in the city that involves a lot of driving, but thankfully can choose my hours, so i attend early on sundays when the place is usually dead. Can't stand the city on a 'normal' day, for the most part.)

Cookie_Monster

see here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2057590078

extremely dangerous for cyclist IMO and i would certainly be sticking to the road in those circumstances.

cgcsb

Deleted User wrote: »

Would reducing traffic lanes not just make the city a tad more congested, though, no?

With the changes to College Green, The Quays, Dame st and George's st, it's fair to say the number of cars entering the City will drop.

Deleted User wrote: »

Anyone that's not currently cycling to work, won't be.

That's just not true, the numbers cycling have increased dramatically over the last 10 years so why would that trend not continue?

Deleted User wrote: »

I think it would be a fair comment that ireland is too cold, wet and windy in general, for the everyday joe soap to bother cycling in.

Go to Copenhagen or Stockholm in December and see the cyclists dealing with freezing rain/sleet and driving winds.

Deleted User wrote: »

(as the majority of users in the city are using car, and regardless of how many bike lanes you put in, they will remain in their cars).

The majority of people entering the city are not doing so by car. Hardly a third of people entering the Canal cordon in the morning peak are doing so by car and that proportion is only going down. The problem is that almost all of our road space is dedicated to cars despite only 1 third and dropping number of people using that mode.

cgcsb

cgcsb wrote: »

The majority of people entering the city are not doing so by car. Hardly a third of people entering the Canal cordon in the morning peak are doing so by car and that proportion is only going down. The problem is that almost all of our road space is dedicated to cars despite only 1 third and dropping number of people using that mode.

When you say this, can I ask you what the alternative is that people are actually using?

For example, you're saying car numbers are reducing. I presume you read an official stat on that somewhere (as, obviously, it'd be practically impossible to tell by eye).

Do you know what mode of transport has increased in popularity? Are the drivers now walking, cycling, hoverboarding or is the bus and luas getting busier?

(genuinely curious).

LeChienMefiant

Reducing the number of cars in the city is not just for the benefit of cyclists. As a pedestrian I am sick to death of dangerous driving in the city and residential areas. The more that vehicular traffic is curtailed the better. The attitude of some (too many) drivers is deplorable and it is making the city unpleasant.

TheExile1878

Personally I think cycle lanes should be given every priority - and away from cars.

However, in return cyclists should refrain from using areas they are not meant to - such as the Millennium Bridge, which can be dangerous at busy times.

Fair's fair eh ?

magicbastarder

the main issue i see with these cycle lanes is that they still have to use the same junctions as cars; and junctions are far more dangerous than straight sections of road.
so it's made the straight bit safer - which is not much gain - and will probably make the dangerous sections more dangerous, as motorists will have less visibility of cyclists. so overall, a retrograde step, i suspect.

LeinsterDub

Deleted User wrote: »

Anyone that's not currently cycling to work, won't be. I think it would be a fair comment that ireland is too cold, wet and windy in general, for the everyday joe soap to bother cycling in.

http://irishcycle.com/myths/myths-weather/

magicbastarder

yep, if the weather in dublin is too poor to cycle to work, it's also too poor to walk more than one mile.

TheExile1878

I see cyclists riding in all weathers, good on them!

It is a shame that a few bad apples let down the rest, but you have to admire anyone that commutes 10s of miles in the piddling down rain.

magicbastarder

it's been a long time since i did it, but i used to cycle from blanchardstown to sandyford to work. the main issue with getting wet was sweat, not rain.

though i did have good shower facilities in work.

cgcsb

Deleted User wrote: »

When you say this, can I ask you what the alternative is that people are actually using?

For example, you're saying car numbers are reducing. I presume you read an official stat on that somewhere (as, obviously, it'd be practically impossible to tell by eye).

Do you know what mode of transport has increased in popularity? Are the drivers now walking, cycling, hoverboarding or is the bus and luas getting busier?

(genuinely curious).

http://www.dublincity.ie/sites/default/files/content/RoadsandTraffic/Traffic/Documents/Canal_Cordon_Counts_2013.pdf

Page 11
Bus, rail and luas, walking and cycling all growing, cycling is growing more than any other mode, as much as 15% y/y in 2013

cgcsb

magicbastarder wrote: »

it's been a long time since i did it, but i used to cycle from blanchardstown to sandyford to work. the main issue with getting wet was sweat, not rain.

though i did have good shower facilities in work.

Jaysus that's a fair haul.

Bray Head

There are no statistics to back this up, but my grandmother (now in late 80s) said that a huge proportion of students and office workers cycled in the 1940s in Dublin. The city didn't extend much beyond the canals (except out to D n Laoghaire). She says traffic lights were rare and there were generally swarms of bikes outnumbering the cars. There were of course trams, buses and trains - journey times about the same as now. What is different is that very few people could afford a car.

The physical geography and climate of the city has not changed since then. However the massive increase in living standards and consequent use of the private car has meant much less use of the bike.

MrMorooka

Deleted User wrote: »

For example, you're saying car numbers are reducing. I presume you read an official stat on that somewhere (as, obviously, it'd be practically impossible to tell by eye).

From Transport for Ireland(the relevant government quango) : http://dublinked.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Getting_into_Dublin-Canal_Cordon_Report_2014_Infographic_PDF1.pdf

Deleted User wrote: »

Do you know what mode of transport has increased in popularity? Are the drivers now walking, cycling, hoverboarding or is the bus and luas getting busier?

Cycling, it would seem.

magicbastarder

cgcsb wrote: »

Jaysus that's a fair haul.

i hope to start doing it again this year. i think it was 14 miles each way, the way i used to go; would be a bit shorter for me now.

MrMorooka

MrMorooka wrote: »

From Transport for Ireland(the relevant government quango) : http://dublinked.ie/wp-content/uploads/2016/03/Getting_into_Dublin-Canal_Cordon_Report_2014_Infographic_PDF1.pdf



Cycling, it would seem.

One thing I am just gonna pull up on that chart is that it starts in 2006. Mega Boom time. A lot less people will be driving to work having lost their job, and a lot less people will be driving having had to sell their car.


Although I'm not disagreeing with the statistic, I am fairly confident a rise in cyclists isn't entirely by public choice.

ezra_pound

[Deleted User] wrote: »

One thing I am just gonna pull up on that chart is that it starts in 2006. Mega Boom time. A lot less people will be driving to work having lost their job, and a lot less people will be driving having had to sell their car.


Although I'm not disagreeing with the statistic, I am fairly confident a rise in cyclists isn't entirely by public choice.

http://www.cso.ie/en/newsandevents/pressreleases/2012pressreleases/pressreleasethisisireland-highlightsfromcensus2011part2/

Car ownership among households continued its upward trend with 1.36 million households having at least one car in 2011 – an increase of 186,000 from 2006.

ezra_pound

[Deleted User] wrote: »

One thing I am just gonna pull up on that chart is that it starts in 2006. Mega Boom time. A lot less people will be driving to work having lost their job, and a lot less people will be driving having had to sell their car.


Although I'm not disagreeing with the statistic, I am fairly confident a rise in cyclists isn't entirely by public choice.

I have never met anyone who was forced into cycling to work because they had to give up their car.

Look at the people cycling around Dublin. Do they look like they're forced into it against their will? The wretched of the earth? People like cycling. OK.

ezra_pound

ezra_pound wrote: »

http://www.cso.ie/en/newsandevents/pressreleases/2012pressreleases/pressreleasethisisireland-highlightsfromcensus2011part2/

Car ownership among households continued its upward trend with 1.36 million households having at least one car in 2011 – an increase of 186,000 from 2006.

Hmm. Pretty interesting stuff, so. I must look into it.. sometime..

ezra_pound wrote: »

I have never met anyone who was forced into cycling to work because they had to give up their car.

I have.

Look at the people cycling around Dublin. Do they look like they're forced into it against their will? The wretched of the earth? People like cycling. OK.

I've never said people don't like cycling. I cycle too. Not sure what bearing that has on it, to be honest.

I wouldn't cycle to work on a freezing cold or rainy day, though. Neither would most people. Unless you're 'into' cycling, it won't appeal to you.

Markcheese

Bray Head wrote:

There are no statistics to back this up, but my grandmother (now in late 80s) said that a huge proportion of students and office workers cycled in the 1940s in Dublin. The city didn't extend much beyond the canals (except out to D n Laoghaire). She says traffic lights were rare and there were generally swarms of bikes outnumbering the cars. There were of course trams, buses and trains - journey times about the same as now. What is different is that very few people could afford a car.

Apparently it was cheap (mass produced) bikes that killed off the trams in cork, that and the tram company could make more selling electricty than using it to power trams

monument

Deleted User wrote: »

I wouldn't cycle to work on a freezing cold or rainy day, though. Neither would most people. Unless you're 'into' cycling, it won't appeal to you.

Weather is far from the main reason people don't cycle -- it's the conditions of our so-called cycle routes that is the problem. UK and Irish surveys in why people don't cycle show this. Poor weather + poor conditions will clearly put off far more people than poor weather and poor/no cycling infrastructure.

Weather in Dublin and Cork is comparable to the weather in the Netherlands. It's colder in winter in Denmark.

And here it is on a larger scale:

https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/tag/rain/
https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/tag/snow/

patrickbrophy18

LeinsterDub wrote: »

Yup that's about the scope of Irish cycling infrastructure. Sure paint a white line on the ground it'll be grand and we can pretend to have 1000's of k on cycle lanes

Yes and I agree with you. The issue with many of the proposed cycle routes to date is the assumption that a lick of paint between a cycle lane and those used for cars makes for good protection from each other. In reality, the lack of proper segregation such as concrete or grass verges between cycle lanes and motorized traffic makes it all too easy for ignorant motorists to park in cycle lanes. I would even go so far as to say that parking in cycle lanes should be a penalty points offense given the potential dangers it imposes on cyclists.

Deleted User wrote: »

I wouldn't cycle to work on a freezing cold or rainy day, though. Neither would most people. Unless you're 'into' cycling, it won't appeal to you.

While I agree that the prospect of cycling in the freezing cold, pouring rain or both is foreboding, it's nothing which proper attire like gloves, waterproofs, hats and boots can't remedy. Back in my walking days, I found that gloves can make a snowy day effortless.

cdebru

monument wrote: »

Weather is far from the main reason people don't cycle -- it's the conditions of our so-called cycle routes that is the problem. UK and Irish surveys in why people don't cycle show this. Poor weather + poor conditions will clearly put off far more people than poor weather and poor/no cycling infrastructure.

Weather in Dublin and Cork is comparable to the weather in the Netherlands. It's colder in winter in Denmark.

And here it is on a larger scale:

https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/tag/rain/
https://bicycledutch.wordpress.com/tag/snow/

Fear is the biggest factor I come across, people think it is dangerous, more people mention that than mention the weather.

TheExile1878

I still do think that if the majority of cyclists who are responsible clamped down on those who routinely break the law, then travel would be safer for all.

At the moment, seeing some of the behaviour of cyclists on my commute home doesn't exactly make you want to support them.

Not all are like that - so the decent ones should make a stand.

schemingbohemia

TheExile1878 wrote: »

I still do think that if the majority of cyclists who are responsible clamped down on those who routinely break the law, then travel would be safer for all.

At the moment, seeing some of the behaviour of cyclists on my commute home doesn't exactly make you want to support them.

Not all are like that - so the decent ones should make a stand.

How do you suggest we do that? Shout at every cyclist who passes a red light that we're stopped at?
I stop at all red lights, so I try to give an example but I can't see how you think I could get others to do so without getting my head knocked off.
Am I then to abuse and cajole every single car driver that drives in the bus lane/cycle lane? Every bus/car driver that does a close pass?

It would help if there was more Garda enforcement of all traffic breaches.

TheExile1878

schemingbohemia wrote: »

How do you suggest we do that? Shout at every cyclist who passes a red light that we're stopped at?
I stop at all red lights, so I try to give an example but I can't see how you think I could get others to do so without getting my head knocked off.
Am I then to abuse and cajole every single car driver that drives in the bus lane/cycle lane? Every bus/car driver that does a close pass?

It would help if there was more Garda enforcement of all traffic breaches.

Perhaps when someone has a legitimate issue with a cyclist's behaviour, the rest of you close ranks on here and blame the cars. Like you've just done.

schemingbohemia

TheExile1878 wrote: »

Perhaps when someone has a legitimate issue with a cyclist's behaviour, the rest of you close ranks on here and blame the cars. Like you've just done.

I wasn't blaming the cars. I was stating that all mode users exhibit bad behaviour on the roads. I have many issues with bad behaviour by cyclists, I also have them with other mode users. I'd have a stroke or get my head kicked in if I challenged every single example of such.

pj.dublin

schemingbohemia wrote: »

Am I then to abuse and cajole every single car driver that drives in the bus lane/cycle lane? Every bus/car driver that does a close pass?

A lot of cyclist don't realise that a lot of cycle lanes are not for exclusive use by bikes, they don't know the rules of the road.
Broken white line means car can use cycle lane.

Markcheese

pj.dublin wrote:

A lot of cyclist don't realise that a lot of cycle lanes are not for exclusive use by bikes, they don't know the rules of the road. Broken white line means car can use cycle lane.

But a car allowed cross a cycle lane but not drive in it.. it'd be illegal to drive straddling several lanes and because of the width a car would have to drive in a least 2,and possibly 3 lanes...

pj.dublin

Markcheese wrote: »

But a car allowed cross a cycle lane but not drive in it.. it'd be illegal to drive straddling several lanes and because of the width a car would have to drive in a least 2,and possibly 3 lanes...

See Leeson Street Bridge.
Bus must take more than one lane to go over bridge.
See Kiely's Donnybrook
Bus must take more than one lane to go around corner.
See......................

schemingbohemia

pj.dublin wrote: »

A lot of cyclist don't realise that a lot of cycle lanes are not for exclusive use by bikes, they don't know the rules of the road.
Broken white line means car can use cycle lane.

pj.dublin wrote: »

See Leeson Street Bridge.
Bus must take more than one lane to go over bridge.
See Kiely's Donnybrook
Bus must take more than one lane to go around corner.
See......................

I'm struggling to see your point here. Are you suggesting that just because it's not illegal that a bus or car should travel within a foot of a cyclist? Do you know the draft from a bus impacts on a cyclist when they pass that close and it can affect the cyclists control of the bike?
Cyclists have to deal with drains and potholes that could cause them to crash, they need to be given decent width to wobble.
It's all about consideration from everyone on the road. If there isn't room to overtake a cyclist safely then don't do it.

TheExile1878

I appreciate the limitations and agree a decent cycle network would be ideal - when you are trying to cross the Millennium Bridge (cycles prohibited) and walk through the Italian Quarter (pedestrianised) and you are hit by a cyclist and given a mouthful of abuse - it's hard to really sympathise.

cgcsb

TheExile1878 wrote: »

I still do think that if the majority of cyclists who are responsible clamped down on those who routinely break the law, then travel would be safer for all.

At the moment, seeing some of the behaviour of cyclists on my commute home doesn't exactly make you want to support them.

Not all are like that - so the decent ones should make a stand.

We can't even police car drivers effectively. Policing cyclists is a whole other proposition.

TheExile1878

cgcsb wrote: »

We can't even police car drivers effectively. Policing cyclists is a whole other proposition.

At least cars are identifiable and can face penalties.

Rogue cyclists are anonymous and know it.

traprunner

Deleted User wrote: »

Would reducing traffic lanes not just make the city a tad more congested, though, no?

I know this is a cycling forum, so there will be an obvious bias towards cycling, but by and large, the city is used by cars. I can understand the idea of getting people to stop driving unnecesaraily into the city, and doing this is a way of promoting cycling instead of driving, but surely it makes less sense than spending an exquivalent money on public transport, no?

Anyone that's not currently cycling to work, won't be. I think it would be a fair comment that ireland is too cold, wet and windy in general, for the everyday joe soap to bother cycling in. There has to be a will. Obviously on a forum like this, everyone's an enthusiast cyclist and would take great pleasure in removing all traffic minus emergency vehicles from the city, and replacing it with cyclists, but from a realistic point of view, is it not making things a tad worse in the grand scheme (as the majority of users in the city are using car, and regardless of how many bike lanes you put in, they will remain in their cars).


Maybe I'm missing something though. Perhaps this is gonna be one of those things they'll come back to in 3 years and see if it made any difference?


(or am i misreading it altogether? Is it more for cyclist safety in these specific areas, rather than promoting cycling in general?).



(I say this as someone who does a bit of work in the city that involves a lot of driving, but thankfully can choose my hours, so i attend early on sundays when the place is usually dead. Can't stand the city on a 'normal' day, for the most part.)

If that was the case there would be no new cyclists. I started commuting by bike about a year and a half ago. I'm 18 years in my current job and 14 years in the same building. I started from zero cycling to work up to practically every day. Many offices have showers so a little rain or sweat means nothing. A few years ago extra bike racks had to be put in to accommodate new cyclists.

I think when the 'commute to work' question in the census is compared to the previous census then it'll be very evident that cycling is becoming more popular as a mode of transport in the city.

Better infrastructure for cycling will lead to more cycling and less cars. In theory it should relieve some of the congestion that you mention.

magicbastarder

TheExile1878 wrote: »

I still do think that if the majority of cyclists who are responsible clamped down on those who routinely break the law, then travel would be safer for all.

when you're in your car, do you try to run motorists who break red lights off the road?

TheExile1878

magicbastarder wrote: »

when you're in your car, do you try to run motorists who break red lights off the road?

And once again the response to bad behaviour is a knee jerk "ug cars bad ug".

magicbastarder

you understand the concept of an analogy to highlight flaws in your argument?

i am a motorist, btw, for over 20 years. would be kinda odd of me to claim all motorists are idiots.

FixitFelix

Just whats needed, more traffic congestion so cyclist can take up more road space!

pj.dublin

Deedsie wrote: »

It would be some shock for traffic in Ireland if every cyclist decided to drive or get the bus on a designated day. Cyclist strike until we get a fair share of road space.
.

Already happens, its called a cold wet windy winters day.

Roadhawk

Well people who cycle would naturally turn to public transport if they are unable to cycle for reasons such as being sick or injured, bad weather conditions or stolen bike. They would hardly go out and buy a car.

magicbastarder

god forbid a cyclist would also own a car.

Jawgap

Roadhawk wrote: »

Well people who cycle would naturally turn to public transport if they are unable to cycle for reasons such as being sick or injured, bad weather conditions or stolen bike. They would hardly go out and buy a car.

I think you'll find a lot of cyclists own a car - some even own two

......and they pay 'road tax'

Roadhawk

I didn't say that a cyclist could not own a car as well as a bike. Im a motorist and have a a bike too. I just dont use it on a daily basis.