Census why no question of sexuality?

normaldude

Just filled out my census just wondering why no question about people's sex lives, would this not be v useful info about how many people are gay, bi or straight and maybe about the sex lives of people

Ten of Swords

Jesus, still wanting to know the details of peoples sex lives? OK I'll be direct here - what possible government policies, infrastructure changes and social/demographic strategies be improved by knowing this information? I'm really curious here, what are the benefits as you see them?

Would you like to provide these details? I seem to recall this...

normaldude wrote: »

I was for an std test recently and felt v uncomfortable about the questions they asked about my sex life

PLL

I had to do research for a paper I wrote on how the new legislation affected businesses. There is no official figure on the number of gay, lesbian, bi or transgender people in Ireland. The cenus would have been the perfect opportunity to collect this type of data about the country's demographics. Why wouldn't they want to know, if even I did for a simple college paper.

line console zero

I can't see why someone's sexual orientation needs to be recorded by the state? I can see the need for gender ststistics but not sexuality.

One eyed Jack

Ten of Swords wrote: »

Jesus, still wanting to know the details of peoples sex lives? OK I'll be direct here - what possible government policies, infrastructure changes and social/demographic strategies be improved by knowing this information? I'm really curious here, what are the benefits as you see them?

Would you like to provide these details? I seem to recall this...

While I do feel the OP just likes to stir shìt, I can certainly see the benefits of collecting this data in order to inform policies regarding education and health, including mental health, tailoring services specifically rather than the current half arsed approach that's used at the moment.

Of course this information wouldn't be static either as people's sexual orientation can change over time, and that could be tracked by the census too. It could be particularly interesting now that marriage equality has been legislated for.

baby and crumble

There are some aspects of government policy that could be informed and better planned if this info was abailable, but if you stop for a second and think about the consequences of including a question like that on the form you will quickly see how dangerous it could be.

1) Imagine being a teenager in a household and being asked that question directly By your parents. You might feel pressured to come out before you're ready. It might kick off negative comments, etc from family that you're not prepared to deal with.

2) As much as the information is kept confidential, there are humans involved and humans are nosy. Obviously census enumerators are bound by the ethical code they sign up to but having that level of personal and potentially sensitive information at their disposal may be too much for some.

3) as another poster said, sexuality is often fluid. Some people ID as bisexual as a stepping stone to coming out as lesbian or gay, some come out with a bang as gay only to realise later that it's not so simple as that for them... Some people genuinely go through 50 years of their lives without feeling attraction to a member of the same sex. Granted most things captured on the census form are fluid (employment status, religion, etc)

4) I would imagine the level of misinformation gathered because of these issues would render the data useless. I use census data as part of my job every day, and we know that some of the questions are pointless because unless people and being 100% honest (which a lot of people won't be on various questions for various reasons of stigma, etc) then it's a futile exercise with potentially dangerous side effects.

Ten of Swords

PLL wrote: »

Why wouldn't they want to know, if even I did for a simple college paper.

Participation in your college paper was optional, the census is not. The analysts know they would not get good data from such a question, the margin of error would be extremely high. People not out yet would probably lie.

The only compromise would be a "don't wish to declare sexuality" box but even that carries weighted connotations.

Besides, op is looking for more than a sexuality declaration. Details of your sex life? Good luck with that op!

normaldude

I'm not stirring **** as someone on here said, I guess from the reasoning above it would be fair to ask, but could be interesting results

Polo_Mint

Ten of Swords wrote: »

Jesus, still wanting to know the details of peoples sex lives? OK I'll be direct here - what possible government policies, infrastructure changes and social/demographic strategies be improved by knowing this information? I'm really curious here, what are the benefits as you see them?

Would you like to provide these details? I seem to recall this...

it could actually be useful information considering Ireland has turned the corner on sexual discrimination

baby and crumble

Polo_Mint wrote: »

Ten of Swords wrote: »

Jesus, still wanting to know the details of peoples sex lives? OK I'll be direct here - what possible government policies, infrastructure changes and social/demographic strategies be improved by knowing this information? I'm really curious here, what are the benefits as you see them?

Would you like to provide these details? I seem to recall this...

it could actually be useful information considering Ireland has turned the corner on sexual discrimination

Knowing how many people ID as LGBT, fair enough, but not the actual details of sex lives FFS!

Polo_Mint

baby and crumble wrote: »

Knowing how many people ID as LGBT, fair enough, but not the actual details of sex lives FFS!

That's what I meant, I see the OP added extra which I would find strange

sierraecho

Let's be honest, the data you would get back would be too inaccurate for the census. A lot of people would lie as they may not be completely comfortable with their sexuality especially in Rural Ireland.

anothernight

Op, this is the second thread I've read of those that you've started. In the first one, you complained that Mr Gay Ireland and Panti Bliss didn't divulge details of their sex lives and how they were infected with HIV. In this one you say this:

normaldude wrote: »

why no question (...) about the sex lives of people

I don't want to offend you or anything, but I honestly think you should consider speaking to a therapist. I don't think this is healthy behaviour.

gizmo555

sierraecho wrote: »

Let's be honest, the data you would get back would be too inaccurate for the census. A lot of people would lie as they may not be completely comfortable with their sexuality especially in Rural Ireland.

And if they did lie it would be an offence (you have to sign a declaration on the census form that the information you've given is completely accurate).

Would it really be a good idea to require people to declare their sexual orientation on pain of criminal penalties?

Annasopra

PLL wrote: »

I had to do research for a paper I wrote on how the new legislation affected businesses. There is no official figure on the number of gay, lesbian, bi or transgender people in Ireland. The cenus would have been the perfect opportunity to collect this type of data about the country's demographics. Why wouldn't they want to know, if even I did for a simple college paper.

There couldnt possibly be an accurate official figure as too many people would not declare such information.

Annasopra

Mod
I appreciate that people disagree with the op but saying the OP is **** stirring and needs to see a therapist is not on.

Play the ball not the man

eviltwin

I wouldn't answer a question like that on a census. My sexual orientation is no one else's business.

drake70

I came across this the other evening on breakingnews.ie

This does ask the OP's question, although not a mandatory census. Also anonymous, unless you want to add your email at the end to receive the results.

Census of the Heart

An alternative census that gets to the heart of our population. By asking deeper questions, we're looking for meaningful answers about how it feels to be alive in Ireland in 2016.



http://censusoftheheart.com/

P.S. I'm not affiliated with this in any way

ongarboy

I know it's 2016 but it's as simple as this. 10s if not 100s of thousands of people who are gay in Ireland are still not out (particularly older and rural based people) and they would not truthfully under any circumstances answer such a question accurately on sexual orientation so the results would be meaningless apart from a gauge of how many people are open (out) about their orientation.

Going back to OP's question, as someone else said, what meaningful purpose would the results provide? Census results are used to determine future planning for public funding allocation (ie more schools, transport needs, housing needs etc). Yes, funding is very important for tackling issues that affect LGBT community (health/education/anti bullying measures etc) but if it was going to have to rely on the census for a gay population count, the funding allocated would be woefully underestimated.

I'm also confused by OP's conflicting threads about eagerly wanting to know about peoples orientation in this thread being divulged via the census but being offended when asked the same questions in the confidential environs of an STI clinic. It doesn't make sense!

Speedwell

I have to weigh any possible benefit against any possible harm. I am the first person to speak up about civic duty but in this specific case I can't see how the value of knowing sex orientation/attraction demographics (and I admit there is some value proportionate to the willingness of public policy to deal fairly with diversity) could possibly balance the risk of having such data associated publicly with your name and location, or for that matter with the risk of fanatics sifting the information to see what localities have the greatest number of "perverts". In a country with so little regard for the separation of church and state, do you honestly expect such a metric to be used to benefit people who don't follow the Church's teaching as to their sexuality? You might as well include a question about how many people have gone over to England for an abortion.

Annasopra

Speedwell wrote: »

I have to weigh any possible benefit against any possible harm. I am the first person to speak up about civic duty but in this specific case I can't see how the value of knowing sex orientation/attraction demographics (and I admit there is some value proportionate to the willingness of public policy to deal fairly with diversity) could possibly balance the risk of having such data associated publicly with your name and location, or for that matter with the risk of fanatics sifting the information to see what localities have the greatest number of "perverts".

No. This information couldn't be publicly associated with your name and location. The census is 100% guaranteed confidential.

Speedwell

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

No. This information couldn't be publicly associated with your name and location. The census is 100% guaranteed confidential.

I'm an IT database professional. Don't be too sanguine about the confidentiality of a paper form that has your name, location, and personal data together on it in the clear. If they gave two spits about confidentiality they would not have all of that information available for the reading to every single human in the chain from respondent to data processing. My father and mother both had to deal, in their day, with government snitches in (different) Communist regimes, and all I can say is I'm glad the Irish have such confidence in their government's good faith. It might even be well-placed confidence. I filled out my census form truthfully, but if there was a question on sexuality, I would be a bit anxious about how it might impact my eventual application for citizenship.

Annasopra

Speedwell wrote: »

I'm an IT database professional. Don't be too sanguine about the confidentiality of a paper form that has your name, location, and personal data together on it in the clear. If they gave two spits about confidentiality they would not have all of that information available for the reading to every single human in the chain from respondent to data processing. My father and mother both had to deal, in their day, with government snitches in (different) Communist regimes, and all I can say is I'm glad the Irish have such confidence in their government's good faith.

I trust the process. Not conspiracies.

Speedwell

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I trust the process. Not conspiracies.

I'm glad you don't work in data security, then.

baby and crumble

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

No. This information couldn't be publicly associated with your name and location. The census is 100% guaranteed confidential.

Even if that were the case (you're dealing with humans and humans are fallible) the data is still siftable down to very localised level. You can request any multiple data points cross tabulated from the CSO.

JupiterKid

I can't see how a question on sexual orientation in the census would give anywhere near an accurate figure on the number of gay, lesbian and bisexual individuals in the country. I suspect any figure would be a gross underestimate as many people would simply not declare their true sexuality.

In a roundabout way you can disclose your sexuality on the census form if you are living with your same sex partner. In 2002 and 2006 this is precsicely what I did.

normaldude

I just want to clear something up here I never said I was offended by the questions in the std clinic, it was difficult to answer, but you know at times the truth hurts! I have always found in life the more information you have about any data set the better u can understand that data set, whether the info is wrong or not

baby and crumble

normaldude wrote: »

I have always found in life the more information you have about any data set the better u can understand that data set, whether the info is wrong or not

That makes no sense. Why would you want to have data you know is wrong?

Speedwell

baby and crumble wrote: »

That makes no sense. Why would you want to have data you know is wrong?

Metadata.

Annasopra

Speedwell wrote: »

Metadata.

Could you explain more?

Speedwell

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

Could you explain more?

Even if the data itself is somewhat unreliable, knowing how it is collected, how it is organized, and how it is intended to be used is incredibly valuable information all by itself. If you see, for example, that a database cross-references, say, religion and number of children, it is not hard to draw the conclusion that the result may influence school policy in some way. You don't even need to see the data itself to make correct inferences about it, in other words.

Annasopra

Speedwell wrote: »

Even if the data itself is somewhat unreliable, knowing how it is collected, how it is organized, and how it is intended to be used is incredibly valuable information all by itself. If you see, for example, that a database cross-references, say, religion and number of children, it is not hard to draw the conclusion that the result may influence school policy in some way. You don't even need to see the data itself to make correct inferences about it, in other words.

I still don't really see the point of inaccurate or wrong data

12Phase

line console zero wrote: »

I can't see why someone's sexual orientation needs to be recorded by the state? I can see the need for gender ststistics but not sexuality.

I can't see why people's religion is recorded by the state either but it doesn't stop them asking.

I think it's a tough one though. I mean when you consider the Catholic box gets ticked by people keeping mammy happy or who just tick it by default having not been to mass sinve 1985, it's unlikely you'd get honest answers.

What would be interesting is a CSO anonymous survey of those kinds of social issues like religion, sexual orientation etc etc

Maybe conducted online and offline with total anonymity.

I have to say I had much more issues with defecting from the Catholic church formally a few years ago than coming out. My otherwise liberal mother took massive offence to it and sulked about how I was abandoning my heritage.

This from a very urban woman who last went to mass in the 1980s!!! He mother is also an atheist and had a non religious funeral... So actually it *is* part of my heritage

It was like she's fine with just not believing any of it but formally declaring that was somehow offensive..
She blew over eventually although still makes the odd dig.

The church oddly enough were lovely and sent me a nice best wishes card!? Lol

Speedwell

Joeytheparrot wrote: »

I still don't really see the point of inaccurate or wrong data

That's silly. My whole argument is that even data with inaccuracies contains things of value. And your response is that you don't see the point of inaccuracies?

Well, if you insist. You can even analyse inaccuracies to see suggestive patterns (or even telltale randomness) that indicate why the bad data is bad in that particular way... whether it indicates bias, system failure, or human error. Every accountant and pollster is familiar with this.