Any chemists in the house?

Waffletraktor

Shot in the dark, anyone here have a background or day job in bio-chem industry? Need some info on cost effective ways of heating about 20k lts of water to 25-30ish degrees in less than an hour ideally to melt urea to high levels and making blends. Also about insulating to prevent re-salting.

longgonesilver

Is this a once off requirement or do you want to do it on a continuous basis?

Dawggone

Waffletraktor wrote: »

Shot in the dark, anyone here have a background or day job in bio-chem industry? Need some info on cost effective ways of heating about 20k lts of water to 25-30ish degrees in less than an hour ideally to melt urea to high levels and making blends. Also about insulating to prevent re-salting.

You'll also need some form of agitation. Urea when being melted needs an input of kinetic energy. Ambient temperature is sufficient as the solution will draw temp from the atmosphere.

Will be doing it here in three weeks.
Using it to boost proteins in wheat?

Edit. Urea on its own will happily stay in solution without crystallizing.

Waffletraktor

Plan is to add onto a trailer mounted skid unit, have something in mind just wondering if anyone had come across a clever device. Got some Stainless welded into a hopper with weight cells attached and a sprayer like venturi induction with a big reconditioned dirty water pump, need heat to get things working faster as slow as a wet week to melt once get above 20% and salts out at 15.6 degree down unless kept circulating.
Right, gluck.

Dawggone

Waffletraktor wrote: »

Plan is to add onto a trailer mounted skid unit, have something in mind just wondering if anyone had come across a clever device. Got some Stainless welded into a hopper with weight cells attached and a sprayer like venturi induction with a big reconditioned dirty water pump, need heat to get things working faster as slow as a wet week to melt once get above 20% and salts out at 15.6 degree down unless kept circulating.
Right, gluck.

What are you blending with the urea? KCL:NaCL? Sulphur?
All have different thermal conductivity...

Are you using discounted Urea?

You've got me interested.

Waffletraktor

Dawggone wrote: »

What are you blending with the urea? KCL:NaCL? Sulphur?
All have different thermal conductivity...

Are you using discounted Urea?

You've got me interested.

Just Uas at the moment is as fancy mix we gone off track from raw urea. Got a stainless tank for less than haulage and did some welding on farm with remanufactured parts on a budget for scales etc. Ideally get little miss botany biochemist to find out if i can homebrew fancy designer and starter ferts before harvest etc.. I HATE CHEMISTRY SO I CANT HELP PAST THAT.

Using lorries returning from port on last load of day the to backload bulk, free cash for them saves a bloody fortune on a little AN /P/K/uas then distressed urea they dont bag up as wouldnt dream of spreading it. 4 ton grain bucket (needed to add a bolt on funnel) on scorpion keeps spreader moving, no bags to prick about with a quick swirl out on pressure washer keeps lorry men happy on their trailer cleanliness.

quietsailor

Waffletraktor wrote: »

Shot in the dark, anyone here have a background or day job in bio-chem industry? Need some info on cost effective ways of heating about 20k lts of water to 25-30ish degrees in less than an hour ideally to melt urea to high levels and making blends. Also about insulating to prevent re-salting.

I don't know if you have parts collected already or are sourcing new or second hand parts as you need them so not all my ideas below will work if you have parts already bought. I work in the utilities side of a bio pharma so we'd provide the hot water to production and the main focus for us is insulation - use good quality and pack all gaps.

Heat rises so insulate the top well - you'd be amazed how designers miss this.

design the insulation so that any covers or instruments that need to come off can do so without removing the insulation. If a cover has to come off and the insulation is in the way it'll get torn off and never replaced. Now your losing heat all the time.

Once you've insulated it well that reduces the heat input needed which reduces the cost. Depending on how many hours a year the machine runs that's usually or quickest and biggest cost saving measure.

If your looking to agitate the mix could you put a second discharge line on the main pump, maybe a bigger size to reduce friction, and send the fluid back to the top of the tank where you have a spray ball. That'll reduce building costs as its the same pump (if your machine has a pump for spreading? ) if the liquid is very thick you might need to fit a revolving splash plate rather than a spray ball which could block.

How well does the liquid flow once heated? You could fit a weir within the tank to split the tank volume (for example ) 70/30% and only heat the 30 and use the re-circulation pump to suck from there and spray onto the 70 - that'll reduce the size of heating instrument needed and hopefully cut costs

Dawggone

Waffletraktor wrote: »

Just Uas at the moment is as fancy mix we gone off track from raw urea. Got a stainless tank for less than haulage and did some welding on farm with remanufactured parts on a budget for scales etc. Ideally get little miss botany biochemist to find out if i can homebrew fancy designer and starter ferts before harvest etc.. I HATE CHEMISTRY SO I CANT HELP PAST THAT.

Using lorries returning from port on last load of day the to backload bulk, free cash for them saves a bloody fortune on a little AN /P/K/uas then distressed urea they dont bag up as wouldnt dream of spreading it. 4 ton grain bucket (needed to add a bolt on funnel) on scorpion keeps spreader moving, no bags to prick about with a quick swirl out on pressure washer keeps lorry men happy on their trailer cleanliness.

You're probably buying the urea at a good price but the energy used to heat the solution would probably wipe out any savings made.
A high pressure, high volume circulation pump for agitation would probably speed up the process. I do agree that it's a painfully slow process.
I wonder if there's a chemical that could be added that would speed it up, a kind of catalyst as it were...

Markcheese

I'm assuming you cant chuck a couple of bags of quick lime into the tank, that stuff gives off a lot of heat when it hits water... but i've no idea how it'd react with urea...

Waffletraktor

quietsailor wrote: »

I don't know if you have parts collected already or are sourcing new or second hand parts as you need them so not all my ideas below will work if you have parts already bought.

Thanks for your in put!!, have everything we needed to-date up and running currently its just to melt some fertiliser to liquid form and the main ingredient gives of an exothermic(term ?) reaction and takes an age. Have tank and big pump on a trailer with about 10ft of space to add some heat source. Thinking of a skin of light 2mm thick steel 15cm wide packed with fibre glass(any good or other form better?) as would need to be flexible to a small amount with a 2.5ft hatch on top for entering so just make something to go around that. We actually put in 4" piping already taking the feed line into the pump when agitating in from 1/3 way up with a mesh/filter over it and feed in via a pipe with holes cut in the bottom as the fert tends to settle there with a drain pipe in bottom corner to go to pump for filling out. Adding another system to the loop to preheat the main water vessel wouldnt hurt before hand then as to let fert in would probably corrode it VERY quickly. We cut out the main tank and stainless steel tubing on farm but got a professional welder in for welding the internals everything outside is normal plastic flex piping we have used for years. The solid fertiliser is feed from a hopper into the line to allow loading with a telehandler loader.
Thanks.

Dawggone wrote: »

You're probably buying the urea at a good price but the energy used to heat the solution would probably wipe out any savings made.
A high pressure, high volume circulation pump for agitation would probably speed up the process. I do agree that it's a painfully slow process.
I wonder if there's a chemical that could be added that would speed it up, a kind of catalyst as it were...

Being lazy, work shy, good for nothing seemingly tillage farmers spent the miserable winter on a project. We were thinking of a big wood pellet boiler being honest, have a few farm houses on it works really well. No shortage of timber to supply it either trust me! Just need some thing reasonably robust that can be lifted from a cut n shut lorry trailer once a year.

Dawggone

Waffletraktor wrote: »

Being lazy, work shy, good for nothing seemingly tillage farmers spent the miserable winter on a project. We were thinking of a big wood pellet boiler being honest, have a few farm houses on it works really well. No shortage of timber to supply it either trust me! Just need some thing reasonably robust that can be lifted from a cut n shut lorry trailer once a year.

Yea, tillage farmers are a scourge on the agri landscape, living off taxpayer handouts...

If you have access to cheap energy could you heat water to steam?
Many moons ago I delivered butter oil to a chocolate factory in Belgium in a double skinned tanker that was actually a container...can be lifted on/off a skelly trailer, iykwim.
The butteroil solidifies during transport, but on arrival at the factory steam was pumped around the outer skin of the tanker to reliquify the butter. Might work.

Waffletraktor

Dawggone wrote: »

Yea, tillage farmers are a scourge on the agri landscape, living off taxpayer handouts...

If you have access to cheap energy could you heat water to steam?
Many moons ago I delivered butter oil to a chocolate factory in Belgium in a double skinned tanker that was actually a container...can be lifted on/off a skelly trailer, iykwim.
The butteroil solidifies during transport, but on arrival at the factory steam was pumped around the outer skin of the tanker to reliquify the butter. Might work.

KISS The lads would have a melt down if steam/pressure valves and all that craic was brought into it.

Dawggone

Waffletraktor wrote: »

KISS The lads would have a melt down if steam/pressure valves and all that craic was brought into it.

No point in suggesting superheated steam so.

Waffletraktor

Dawggone wrote: »

No point in suggesting superheated steam so.

No, i've caused enough stress announcing that the vaddy drill is been sold in autumn and next winters project is a bit more adventurous. Gonna bolt 2 swedish cameleon or Knockerling tine drills together with some steering to do late season hoeing to hit spring BG.
We can join the bunch sitting around moaning about prices, blaming everyone else but themsleves for over producing bottom feeder output or we can keep moving forward. Could have doubled our acerage easily this spring due to land agents coming crying for their lords as their afraid of loosing their 5%, to be told to take on anymore land we want 200/acre with half upfront and half on 31st March they tend to get upset as all their contract farmer bigD~~K mates have had to drop them in the sh!t. With crop in the ground in a few places!

darragh_haven

Waffletraktor wrote: »

No, i've caused enough stress announcing that the vaddy drill is been sold in autumn and next winters project is a bit more adventurous. Gonna bolt 2 swedish cameleon or Knockerling tine drills together with some steering to do late season hoeing to hit spring BG.
We can join the bunch sitting around moaning about prices, blaming everyone else but themsleves for over producing bottom feeder output or we can keep moving forward. Could have doubled our acerage easily this spring due to land agents coming crying for their lords as their afraid of loosing their 5%, to be told to take on anymore land we want 200/acre with half upfront and half on 31st March they tend to get upset as all their contract farmer bigD~~K mates have had to drop them in the sh!t. With crop in the ground in a few places!

Ye really need a few 500kw AD plants dotted around the place.

I say jokingly.... but half serious, it'd even process BG

Waffletraktor

darragh_haven wrote: »

Ye really need a few 500kw AD plants dotted around the place.

I say jokingly.... but half serious, it'd even process BG

Ha, would it be totally unfair to say most AD plants were put in by firms who were on the path to going broke anyway and unless alot of livestock or veg waste in place there is one or 2 struggling? But i guess you know someone who could put in a few .

If my grazier friend doesn't take more of the heavy land/ pay more for it soon i may be looking for a pair of stockmen mind.

Dawggone

Waffletraktor wrote: »

No, i've caused enough stress announcing that the vaddy drill is been sold in autumn and next winters project is a bit more adventurous. Gonna bolt 2 swedish cameleon or Knockerling tine drills together with some steering to do late season hoeing to hit spring BG.
We can join the bunch sitting around moaning about prices, blaming everyone else but themsleves for over producing bottom feeder output or we can keep moving forward. Could have doubled our acerage easily this spring due to land agents coming crying for their lords as their afraid of loosing their 5%, to be told to take on anymore land we want 200/acre with half upfront and half on 31st March they tend to get upset as all their contract farmer bigD~~K mates have had to drop them in the sh!t. With crop in the ground in a few places!

Jeezuzz!
The Bubarry boot wearing land crew are on 5%? How bad!

Things aren't looking good for the outfits producing pig feed on high rents. Are banks getting a little restless? In fairness it couldn't last...
This year I've failed miserably to try and secure any kind of a reasonable forward price. The problem is that nobody knows just how many tons are sitting in farm stores and the market is beyond dull.
I've switched from soft/low value wheats to try and add some value. I'll be going hard with urea on wheat once grain fill starts...hopefully high protein milling will grab some sort of market. Not altogether confident though...


I presume the Knockerling will be for early season work as any moisture on and it would end up in a cloggy mess. What width you aiming to go?

As regards complaining...there's a thread here on milk price and it would make your eyes bleed!!

Waffletraktor

Dawggone wrote: »

Jeezuzz!
The Bubarry boot wearing land crew are on 5%? How bad!

Things aren't looking good for the outfits producing pig feed on high rents. Are banks getting a little restless? In fairness it couldn't last...
This year I've failed miserably to try and secure any kind of a reasonable forward price. The problem is that nobody knows just how many tons are sitting in farm stores and the market is beyond dull.
I've switched from soft/low value wheats to try and add some value. I'll be going hard with urea on wheat once grain fill starts...hopefully high protein milling will grab some sort of market. Not altogether confident though...


I presume the Knockerling will be for early season work as any moisture on and it would end up in a cloggy mess. What width you aiming to go?

As regards complaining...there's a thread here on milk price and it would make your eyes bleed!!

No going forward the plan is drill in autumn as normal, go through it to ridge up almost about this time of year/growth stage on 12-15" rows crop with steering setup on the drill. Still have the 2nd hand weaving disc drill if needed. If a cloggy mess is on the cards BG filled shyte is all that will result now, best to leave it bare.
Need to develope some sort of paitence to remember these best intentioned out of silly season plans! Grassing down has resulted in the cleanest crop here since most of us have been here, it would be stupid to undo that, maybe work a rotation of 5 years in 10 in grass across the whole home block is the future.
My boss had the good fortune of having the right surname, and all that went with that by being in a position to build the stores here which leaves us in a position of they dont need our grain, but they do our stores so good starting point to selling. Will be a period of aiming for full spec 3ton wheats until asia/africa dries up/ decides they need to refill the stores going forward. I know we work hard to get the premiums but if it goes that way i couldn't afford current spend on weed control.
As for that other place, the 2 years of high price fueled back patting is over, now its everyone elses fault. Reminds you of a spoilt child after having their latest toy taken away.

Dawggone

Waffletraktor wrote: »

No going forward the plan is drill in autumn as normal, go through it to ridge up almost about this time of year/growth stage on 12-15" rows crop with steering setup on the drill. Still have the 2nd hand weaving disc drill if needed. If a cloggy mess is on the cards BG filled shyte is all that will result now, best to leave it bare.
Need to develope some sort of paitence to remember these best intentioned out of silly season plans! Grassing down has resulted in the cleanest crop here since most of us have been here, it would be stupid to undo that, maybe work a rotation of 5 years in 10 in grass across the whole home block is the future.
My boss had the good fortune of having the right surname, and all that went with that by being in a position to build the stores here which leaves us in a position of they dont need our grain, but they do our stores so good starting point to selling. Will be a period of aiming for full spec 3ton wheats until asia/africa dries up/ decides they need to refill the stores going forward. I know we work hard to get the premiums but if it goes that way i couldn't afford current spend on weed control.
As for that other place, the 2 years of high price fueled back patting is over, now its everyone elses fault. Reminds you of a spoilt child after having their latest toy taken away.

You're going down the road of inter row cultivation, so I'm assuming that the herbicides aren't efficient or too expensive. RTK will be a necessity. At 12"/15" spacing there won't be much competition from the crop, or will you go down the road of mechanical weeding?

I'm working on a dual cropping system here with wheat and lucerne. Seems worthwhile. There's a guy called Frédéric Thomas (Frenchman) that's well worth talking to. Good head on him and free with information. A wealth of ideas and experience. Well respected here.

If laying down to grass is so successful why not embed it into the rotation and maybe flog it off to feed a digester. A sward with a high inclusion of clovers (or clover on its own) would leave soil in top condition after 5yrs. I'm using hybrid clovers that are highly competitive and productive, however I take them out after 1 or 2yrs because no amount of pgr would keep crops vertical after it.

The backslapping brigade are to be seen across all farming enterprises, usually from the younger folk that don't have the length of time in the business to know hard times...great education now though.

Waffletraktor

Dawggone wrote: »

You're going down the road of inter row cultivation, so I'm assuming that the herbicides aren't efficient or too expensive. RTK will be a necessity. At 12"/15" spacing there won't be much competition from the crop, or will you go down the road of mechanical weeding?

I'm working on a dual cropping system here with wheat and lucerne. Seems worthwhile. There's a guy called Frédéric Thomas (Frenchman) that's well worth talking to. Good head on him and free with information. A wealth of ideas and experience. Well respected here.

If laying down to grass is so successful why not embed it into the rotation and maybe flog it off to feed a digester. A sward with a high inclusion of clovers (or clover on its own) would leave soil in top condition after 5yrs. I'm using hybrid clovers that are highly competitive and productive, however I take them out after 1 or 2yrs because no amount of pgr would keep crops vertical after it.

We've enough contract work off an ad plant to pay for 2 quadies that's as far as we are going. I have various reasons not to go near ad, it's such a pr own goal and when it is known it makes Hinckley point 2 look feasible in comparison...

As for finer details its down the line still, row widths and rtk are small issues really. No chems are good in right conditions, but nothing affecting Spring germinated Bg bar old chemistry which further pushes resistant plants to the fore. There has been glyphosate resistant plants found where guys go with lots of low doses needing full rate to get a kill now....
Farmers are their own enemy ::smashesbheadrepeatedlyontable.
As for dairy,
Their in a crises of unrivalled proportions and need their over priced product that only a fraction of their supposed target market can consume and afford, everyone else is just having a tough time...

Waffletraktor

Dawggone wrote: »

You're going down the road of inter row cultivation, so I'm assuming that the herbicides aren't efficient or too expensive. RTK will be a necessity. At 12"/15" spacing there won't be much competition from the crop, or will you go down the road of mechanical weeding?

I'm working on a dual cropping system here with wheat and lucerne. Seems worthwhile. There's a guy called Frédéric Thomas (Frenchman) that's well worth talking to. Good head on him and free with information. A wealth of ideas and experience. Well respected here.

If laying down to grass is so successful why not embed it into the rotation and maybe flog it off to feed a digester. A sward with a high inclusion of clovers (or clover on its own) would leave soil in top condition after 5yrs. I'm using hybrid clovers that are highly competitive and productive, however I take them out after 1 or 2yrs because no amount of pgr would keep crops vertical after it.

We've enough contract work off an ad plant to pay for 2 quadies that's as far as we are going. I have various reasons not to go near ad, it's such a pr own goal and when it is known it makes Hinckley point 2 look feasible in comparison...

As for finer details its down the line still, row widths and rtk are small issues really. No chems are good in right conditions, but nothing affecting Spring germinated Bg bar old chemistry which further pushes resistant plants to the fore. There has been glyphosate resistant plants found where guys go with lots of low doses needing full rate to get a kill now....
Farmers are their own enemy ::smashesheadrepeatedlyontable.
As for dairy, quotas saved them from themselves.
Their in a crises of unrivalled proportions and need their over priced product that only a fraction of their supposed target market can consume and afford, everyone else is just having a tough time... Of course.
Hell we've effectively paid off a tenant to get out of ag, let keep all the sheds for conversions while loopholes open and a cash payment for breaking a long long term agreement.

Dawggone

Waffletraktor wrote: »

As for dairy, quotas saved them from themselves.
Their in a crises of unrivalled proportions and need their over priced product that only a fraction of their supposed target market can consume and afford, everyone else is just having a tough time... Of course.

Fair point.