Farm control/ownership conundrum

casualguy

Hi all,
Recently my father passed away. In his will, he transferred
everything to my mother. The farm is located over 2 different sites, one is
dairy & the other finishes the yearlings. I currently take care of the non-
dairy side of things & my mother and brother take care of the dairy side.
My problem is the brother is going to do the green cert and I won't have
the time to do it, as I have another job. As it stands, my part in the farm
suits me & my other job.
As I understand the green cert, its only real advantages are tax cuts on
signing over and possible non-existence grants currently. And the grants
are only if the farm is in the green cert holder's name.
So I have to assume my brother's intention is to take full control of the
farm. I'm trying to look out for my future without upsetting my mother,
but as you can imagine, it's near impossible. She does give the impression
that she would rather an easy transferring of control.
My questions are:
1) Are their any viable options where myself & the brother could work
side by side in the future? (without ownership to one entity)
After some research, partnerships between all 3 of us seems the most
attractive option.

2) Is their any way of protecting my interests without having to do the
green cert?

3) Is there a part-time alternative for the green cert regarding people in
full time employment outside of the farm?
I have education level up to masters level.
Thanks in advance.

mayota

Talk to them both and tell them you want to continue farming your part. Lease the land and entitlements off your mother. You could do online greencert.

casualguy

Thanks for the reply. My next step was to talk to my brother, but I only found out by accident that he applied for the green cert. Also, there was a loan on some of the farmland, which was paid partially or fully by my father's insurance. Again my brother never informed me, the secrecy makes me assume he doesn't want me involved. I can understand he wants to make sole decisions. I'm not asking for much from him, but I would like to know if there is a legal route to solving this.

cjmc11

Several ways to do the green cert part time or distance education, I'm doin the distance education one atm, work full time off farm, approx. one day a month, every second one a Saturday, started January 15 finished this June, its very straightforward, nothin too technical at all.
Don't know if your under 40 or not, but there's generous grants and single farm payment top up for young trained farmers, might be worth looking into doing it, depending on your circumstances.

cj maxx

As I understand the green cert, its only real advantages are tax cuts on

Do you not need the green cert for a herd number ?

casualguy

I'm 34, which is another consideration regarding the green cert. 2 herd numbers is an option that crossed my mind. I didn't think a green cert qualification is necessary for a herd number?

cjmc11

casualguy wrote: »

I'm 34, which is another consideration regarding the green cert. 2 herd numbers is an option that crossed my mind. I didn't think a green cert qualification is necessary for a herd number?

No I don't think you need the green cert to get a herd number. Bear in mind that the green cert costs about 2,500 to do, plus if your college doesn't do it on a Saturday, you may have to sacrifice holidays or take unpaid leave which can add up to quite alot of money. Whether to do it or not all depends on your individual circumstances, size of farm etc. Best thing is to talk to an agricultural advisor about your exact situation imo.

casualguy

Thanks for the replies. One thing I may have overlooked, regarding the stamp duty exemption, must the transfer of land occur before the age of 35? Or can it be done at a later stage, as long as the green cert is complete before 35?
Also, if my brother and I had the green cert, is the stamp duty exemption applied individually?

smokey-fitz

I'd be more inclined to try and talk to your brother. Too many families fall out over land and all this secrecy isn't going to help matters. While courses and advice is good, if you don't say anything to them, they will think something sinister is going on too. And that won't help. Let them know your interest and intentions and go from there.

_Brian

Its time to face this and start talking the THREE of you round a table with a pot of strong tea.

The way I look at it its your mothers farm and you and your brother talking about which way you are going to carve it up behind your mothers back is a bit of a liberty.

I think you should be looking at a full partnership arrangement where you have both access/responsibility over both enterprises and so more likely will be a success on both fronts. The danger in splitting the whole thing is you will be loosing any advantage in scale and again chances of resentment down the road if one becomes vastly more profitable than the other..

Face this whole thing now rather than letting it fester on and on, I can already see undertones of mistrust on your behalf.

casualguy

I have discussed this with my mother, but she isn't ready. I said to her I want a more active role in farming decisions on the farm site I'm working on and I would probably find very difficult to work under my brother. Its stubbornness, but I cant lie to myself. I didn't realize the land had to be transferred before the age of 35, my questions were regarding control of the farms in 10 or 20 years time.
And even then, a partnership between all 3 of us was what I had in mind, with my mother in charge until she wants and hopefully until the day she dies.
My brother is 32 years old this year and with my mother not ready to discuss the future this year, the green cert route isn't viable, as I won't have it completed before 35 anyway.
This is my worry about the green cert, the cheapest option is to hand over to the brother within the next 3 years, and I'll be left out in the cold.
But as I said, I don't want the whole farm, just to be in charge of the beef side of things under my mother, which is why I think a partnership among the 3 of us is the fairest route to go.
In regards to the day to day running of the farms up to this point, myself & my brother have had disagreements & arguments. But since I have just taken care of the second farm decisions & given the brother more freedom on the other farm, we are getting on fine. But obviously he's involved with the mother every day at her home & the farm, and whether its on purpose or not, she will probably side with what he wants to do.
This may come across as negative thinking, but my natural instinct is always to think the worse case scenario & for me, everything points in that direction.
Regards.

WheatenBriar

It's your mums decision.
How far apart are the two farms and is the dairy one big enough to support 80 or 90 cows and followers?
You don't want to be in a situation whereby your brother says the dairy end is only viable if say silage is cut off the other for example

You need to bite the bullet as others say and have the conversation with all three of you
If your mum is not ready then suggest to her that in a years time you will sit down but emphasise that you are willing to lease the land for her lifetime so she only rightly has the security of it
It does not sound like you and your brother are close,are you the only siblings?

Grueller

Young farmer was extended to 40. Was this not relevant for tax purposes when transferring also?

cj maxx

cjmc11 wrote: »

No I don't think you need the green cert to get a herd number. Bear in mind that the green cert costs about 2,500 to do, plus if your college doesn't do it on a Saturday, you may have to sacrifice holidays or take unpaid leave which can add up to quite alot of money. Whether to do it or not all depends on your individual circumstances, size of farm etc. Best thing is to talk to an agricultural advisor about your exact situation imo.

When my father transferred his herd no to me 5/6 years ago , i had to get a letter of equivalence from teagasc to say my green cert from the '90's was equal to a level 6 fetac (?) qualification , before they would give me it.
Oh ðŸ˜, you stole my name !!! Nearly

casualguy

@WheatenBriar There is 50-60 cows. 8-12 mth olds transferred to second once room is available from the sale of the current finishers. My brother had a series of arguments around a month or so after my father passed away and still festering a bit, emotions were running high at the time anyhow.
I'm not sure what leasing involves, but I pretty sure the mother doesn't want to complicate things. The brother was have to meet me halfway

@Grueller I've searched quite a bit online and its mentioned a lot that there's a huge influx of green cert course application due to the age of 35. Has it only changed recently? And if so, does this apply for the stamp duty exemption? As I said, I'm not interested in the exemption, but it would mean any rush decisions could halted.

solerina

Do you not just have to start the green cert before you are 35 ? Which you can probably still manage

WheatenBriar

casualguy wrote: »

@WheatenBriar There is 50-60 cows. 8-12 mth olds transferred to second once room is available from the sale of the current finishers. My brother had a series of arguments around a month or so after my father passed away and still festering a bit, emotions were running high at the time anyhow.
I'm not sure what leasing involves, but I pretty sure the mother doesn't want to complicate things. The brother was have to meet me halfway

A lease can be a simple rental agreement between you and your mum offering her a certàin income from the land you are farming at a rate you can afford
It gives you certainty for a number of years also

Its a pity you had the arguments with your brother regardless of who started it
Easy advice for a poster here to give but say nothing rather than row-think of another way

Is the farm your brothers only income?
For guys in your 30's that farm will need another 20 or 30 cows to support a family,1 family not 2 or 3 and that includes the land you're farming

So to be honest,its up to ye but I think you have bigger decisions to make,like your mum retiring,one of you taking over the lot and a mechanism to provide something out of it for the other brother and your mum without jepordising the viability of the farm

_Brian

I think your focusing far too much on what you want and not on what your mother wants.
Like it or not if you can't get on better with your brother your likely to be left with nothing.

Start mending bridges and maybe working better together, eat some humble pie, damn it eat the whole pie if you must.

Have you been honest with your mother about all these things, that you feel your being left out and want to be more involved in the running of things.

casualguy

@Brian I was honest with her, but she doesn't want to discuss at this time.

@WheatenBriar It's not the brother's only income - his other income has better long-term prospects as well. This is one of the main reasons I think we should be able to work the farm side by side as an extra income - not as a main income for any of the 2 of us.
Also, there is land available to expand in the future, from my father's 2 uncles. One at no cost & the other at a cost. This was the father's vision before he died, to expand at some stage.

WheatenBriar

@casualguy
That sounds fair enough
Dairy farming at that size and higher is a big time commitment,more again if expanding,so I do not envy the difficult discussions ahead to come to some workable arrangement

casualguy

Hopefully it'll work out. Hopefully he'll see it like you, that it is a big commitment, and realize that spreading the workload is in the best interests of the farm & our mother.
I do understand that the dairy side has a lot more work involved, but I carry out the farm work on the dairy side when he's not around & also milk the cows twice at the weekends to give him a break. As I said, I think both us benefit.

thegreatgonzo

solerina wrote: »

Do you not just have to start the green cert before you are 35 ? Which you can probably still manage

No to avail of the 25% top up on entitlements you have to be under 40 when you start it. You have to have your name on the herd number to be eligible though. The stamp duty exemption is for under 35s I think.
OP maybe you could discuss possible partnership options with a teagasc advisor so when you speak to your family you will be able to make unthreatening sounding suggestions?

casualguy

@thegreatgonzo That is a step that I'm considering.