Amazon reportedly considering purchase of German airport

_Tombstone_

Amazon.com’s logistics plans could take another interesting step forward after a German newspaper reported that the Seattle-based online retailing powerhouse is considering the purchase of the Frankfurt-Hahn airport.

The German paper Sueddeutsche Zeitung reported that discussions between Amazon and the airport had taken place, and that the airport planned to decide between three possible bidders soon. The freight industry news site Lloyd’s Loading List noted that the Hahn airport is located near Koblenz, Germany where Amazon operates a large fulfillment center, one described as covering the same amount of space as 17 football pitches.

http://www.geekwire.com/2016/amazon-reportedly-considering-purchase-german-airport/

JCX BXC

How long until Ryanair start advertising flights to "The Amazon Airport'?

Jamie2k9

Media has suggested they will start or move ops to LUX towards end of year. Guess the buyers will decided if they want FR or not!

EchoIndia

I'm glad to see that respected international journalistic unit of measurement, the football pitch, being used by the author of the article.

Irish Steve

Pat Dunne wrote: »

More clickbait crap.

It may well be, so please report it, rather than add to the signal to noise ratio. We might not deal with it instantly, but reports from users are looked at and action taken where appropriate.

737max

If you search for "flughafen hahn" in google news you will see that it is more than clickbait with nothing behind it.

The interesting part not being reported in that report are the other unnamed bidders who are supposed to be Chinese investors or asian wealth funds. DAA would do well to take note of their aspirations; they are not willing to give their money to other people; their aspiration is to fly their freight and long distance civilian flights through their own airports.

Ryanair have supposedly pulled one plane out of Hahn according to what I read but it is hard to know where in southwest Germany they will or could go as you have a number of large cities there which Ryanair would like to serve and very few choices of low cost airports near those Cities which they can fly from. Hahn is having problems attracting other airlines to the airport. The airport is owned by the federal states whose primary interest is in the interests of the states and if they are not able to justify the support of the airport then they'll just sell up and use the money elsewhere. They've invested loads already and built a barely used motorway all the way to the airport. Think of how quiet the M6 to Galway is and that's what they've built.

http://www.austrianaviation.net/news-international/news-detail/datum/2016/03/11/amazon-als-hahn-kaeufer-im-gespraech.html

J.pilkington

737max wrote: »

Think of how quiet the M6 to Galway is and that's what they've built.

Your post was well written up to this point which is nothing but pure nonsense

737max

Do you drive on either of these motorways regularly?
The airport is literally the end of the motorway and I've driven the road over years as it is being extended and upgraded from landstrasse to motorway.
There are no large population centres over there in that part of Germany or eastern France.
The M6 and this autobahn are the only motorways on which I can drive for kilometres on end without having to dip my headlights because there are no large population centres being served.

martinsvi

I've used Hahn airport quite a bit, it's fairly busy for a small airport.. Not sure what motorway you're referring to - E42? It gets very busy on work days during morning/evening rushours, on weekends it does feel completely dead as most of the traffic is trucks and their movements are restricted on weekends. Same goes for the airport - if you're unlucky enough to travel at peak times, there's not a place for a penny to drop - 2 hours later it can be a complete ghost town. Doesn't matter that there are no large population centers, don't underestimate the surrounding rural populations - Rheinland-Pfalz as a state alone is more populous than some of the countries where Ryanair is based, not to mention that Westfalen is also within reach with it's 17 or so million people evenly scattered around towns and villages.

I think Germans will be most interested in whether amazon deal will help them preserve or even create new jobs in the area. If they will feel that with the arrival of amazon they might push out passenger movements which then in return will leave an impact on tourism - hotels, car rentals etc, I'd say most likely they will throw the offer in abfalleimer

737max

Only reason it feels busy is because passengers are squashed in like sardines and they understaff the security checks. They also try to keep one terminal or the other open and not both if they can avoid it.
If you want to approach the airport from any direction other than the autobahn you have to traverse the Mosel low mountain range.

Here are the statistics for the airport:
https://www.hahn-airport.de/default.aspx?menu=traffic_data&cc=en

subtract coach service passengers and assign about 2.5 passengers per car and you are getting very light load on that autobahn.

martinsvi

737max wrote: »

subtract coach service passengers and assign about 2.5 passengers per car and you are getting very light load on that autobahn.

can you confirm you are talking about B50/E42? I'm not sure why are you making it sound as if the road was built just for the airport as it's not the case. That particular stretch is the shortest route between Frankfurt and Luxembourg, but the main purpose has always been to get Bavarians closer access to ports in France, as I said - the road gets very busy with freight traffic. It's just not completed yet and I can see how that stretch west from the Hahn airport might make it look as if it was built just for the airport. But if you continue on onto B50 NW direction, after some 30 or so kilometers it becomes an autobahn again and continues all the way through Belgium and I think ends up somewhere near Calais in France

arubex

At least Amazon are starting to address their logisitics issues; certainly to NI they've become ridiculously slow to dispatch, the worst being 10 days for one order stuck in 'Preparing to dispatch'* status, which is convenient for them since the customer can't cancel it.

Even Prime members I know have started grumbling that it can take a couple of days before item enters the delivery network. In fact they now have a Prime check-out option that offers digital-download-credit for selecting 'no hurry delivery' which suggests that there's a blockage in their pipeline somewhere that they're trying to mitigate.

Meanwhile I've mostly switched to eBay, given that I can often receive items from China to my door quicker than Amazon can dispatch orders from Europe.


* from what I can tell, this means that they're moving items from one warehouse to another closer to the customer prior to handing-off to Royal Mail or whomever

737max

martinsvi wrote: »

can you confirm you are talking about B50/E42? I'm not sure why are you making it sound as if the road was built just for the airport as it's not the case. That particular stretch is the shortest route between Frankfurt and Luxembourg, but the main purpose has always been to get Bavarians closer access to ports in France, as I said - the road gets very busy with freight traffic. It's just not completed yet and I can see how that stretch west from the Hahn airport might make it look as if it was built just for the airport. But if you continue on onto B50 NW direction, after some 30 or so kilometers it becomes an autobahn again and continues all the way through Belgium and I think ends up somewhere near Calais in France

That all sounds very plausible but it isn't the case. I've travelled that motorway at all times of the week and weekend and the majority of cars and they are mostly cars have kennzeichen numbers from the local kreis.
There are practically no LKW and if I was looking to get to the French ports in either a car or lorry from Bavaria this is not route I'd take as it would be very expensive.

Like the M6 this motorway is over-specified although I'm not complaining as this motorway is the least stressful part of the journey to Hahn. Once I've hit that road I know there will be no traffic or jams and if I need to push on above the speed limit I won't be delayed.

J.pilkington

737max wrote: »

Like the M6 this motorway is over-specified .

The fact you keep referencing the m6 as over spec'd and under utilised mean I'm not going to take the rest of your post seriously and instead believe what other posters state

737max

http://www.irishmotorwayinfo.com/inex/roads/m6/m6counts.html

For future reference, I have no duty to you to prove to you that night is not day nor day is not night.

Tenger

737max wrote: »

......
Like the M6 this motorway is over-specified although I'm not complaining as this motorway is the least stressful part of the journey to Hahn. Once I've hit that road I know there will be no traffic or jams and if I need to push on above the speed limit I won't be delayed.

J.pilkington wrote: »

The fact you keep referencing the m6 as over spec'd and under utilised mean I'm not going to take the rest of your post seriously and instead believe what other posters state

737max opinion's on the M6 have no bearing on an aviation related matter. Lets focus on the airport purchase in this thread. Just because you disagree with one point another poster makes does not automatically mean their other points are invalid.

martinsvi

has it ever occurred to people that you don't build roads, airports, railways etc for todays demands and population, but also plan ahead taking into account global trends? A decent motorway network is an investment that can attract businesses and I think Frankfurt Hahn airport is an excellent case for this. Opportunities don't happen to places with crap infrastructure.

737max

The drop in traffic happened after the autobahn was mostly completed and there is no German recession at which you can point fingers.

I'm all for good infrastructure links. Frankfurt Main is a good example of this. People can arrive on local and ICE trains and then walk up to the airport; which is not something you can do with Dublin.
This means that other large cities don't need their own airports as they connect through Frankfurt Main on the excellent autobahn, rain and even intra country or intra continent plane network.

martinsvi

ICE is expensive as hell and there's certainly no low cost carriers *there are very few low cost cariers with very limited number of destinations available* in Frankfurt Main so I beg to differ

_Tombstone_

Irish Steve wrote: »

It may well be, so please report it, rather than add to the signal to noise ratio. We might not deal with it instantly, but reports from users are looked at and action taken where appropriate.

3 times now you've let him come on a Thread I've started and let him write this clickbait bullsh1t.

And which one of ye (Mods) actually deleted (from the site) a Thread about Radar/Radar Lock and how it works from the Forum Aviation and Aircraft? The reasoning behind that should be good?

I've looked there and i've 32 threads in here now like...(hold on to your seats, theirs a point coming)
Ejector Seat
25 INCREDIBLE VIEWS FROM PLANE PASSENGERS' WINDOWS
TV signals ‘to replace radars’ in aircraft tracking
Real-time sonic boom display moves closer to cockpit integration
First Known Plane Hijacking Was A Flight To Freedom
Watch footage of Amelia Earhart from 1937
What does it take to restore a World War Two Spitfire?
What Pilots See When You Shine a Laser Pointer at Aircraft, Why It's So Damned Hard To Build a New Bomber
Flashes of light may stop jet lag
Airbus rolls out anti-drone system
Meet NASA’s new X-planes: “Quiet” sonic booms and engines at the back

and on and on it goes. All of them seem to be fairly self explanatory what they're about, same as the ones the mods have no problem continually being labelled clickbait by someone who starts a Thread called Is he Nuts or just plain Crackers?.....CLICKYBAITY OR WHAT LOIKE?????????

And whose other Threads are mostly about giving out about poor moderation

Are the Mods asleep at the Controls?
Taking a holiday for this forum
Whats wrong with the forum and how to correct it? Update?

Though with the carry on lately he might have a point! Pity he didn't stay on that holiday!

Amazon buying an Airport is CLICKBAIT!!!!!! And this was UNTHANKED by forum regulars after clickbait post, piss poor forum.

And thats not even mentioning all the other posts of mine ye've moved from Threads into new Threads or vice versa, christ, how does one post in here now???? Post in existing thread or start new one you're fecked either way.

I've probably earned myself a holiday now, it's the Forums loss. Piss poor moderation.

JCX BXC

Not sure if this opinion will be common along all users, but in my opinion most of the problems with the forum have more or less sorted themselves out. The lack of more experienced members is still evident though, but the ones we still do have are a great part of the forum.

Tenger

_Tombstone_ wrote: »

3 times now you've let him come on a Thread I've started and let him write this clickbait bullsh1t.
.............................
Amazon buying an Airport is CLICKBAIT!!!!!!
.................................
And thats not even mentioning all the other posts of mine ye've moved from Threads into new Threads or vice versa, christ, how does one post in here now???? Post in existing thread or start new one you're fecked either way.
..........................................
I've probably earned myself a holiday now, it's the Forums loss. Piss poor moderation.

If you have a problem with another poster then use the report button.
In the case you mentioned the mod team has responded and taken action.

If you have a problem with a mod action PM the mod of the forum you are dealing with, otherwise use the Dispute resolution process (or contact a Co-Mod)
Its in the boards.ie T&C's...."Dont argue with a mod in thread"

Your comment re this thread may be correct, however this thread has generated discussion and back and forth arguments. Thus defying the "clickbait" nomenclature. This point has been stated several times by myself in my decision to close/delete/move certain threads with no discussion.

Similarly the "..nuts or crazy.." thread may have a very irreverent title but it does cover an increasingly common occurrence in modern commercial air travel. We are a light hearted discussion board with a(hopefully good) mix of amateurs, enthusiasts and aviation professionals.

Other threads with (albeit interesting links) have not. Hence the decision to sometimes move these links into the appropriate thread (aviation videos/aviation photos/ military forum/survival forum, etc etc)

And unfortunately your last 3 words have given me no choice under the boards T&C's but to issue a 2 week holiday from A&A forum

Tenger

On an unrelated point, if this discussion doesnt take the correct turn-off for the Amazon airport the motorway/infrastructure debate will be closed.

Its Aviation and Aircraft, not Planes,Trains and Automobiles

JCX BXC

Have we any more credible source for this news?

thomil

Carnacalla wrote: »

Have we any more credible source for this news?

German language only, I'm afraid. German newspaper Süddeutsche Zeitung reports that Amazon is in "sales/distribution" talks with Frankfurt Hahn Airport about using it, but Amazon is very tight lipped about any rumours of a sale.

http://www.sueddeutsche.de/wirtschaft/amazon-im-drachenboot-1.2936938

Pretty much all other german news sites that are writing about it, and there aren't many, are using the Süddeutsche article as their source, some more sceptical, others, like Focus Online, much more sure of themselves.

My take on this whole story is that it makes sense from an operational point of view. Frankfurt Hahn has lost a number of cargo customers in recent times, so that the existing cargo facilities are operating nowhere near capacity. At the same time, a second maintenance hangar, capable of handling anything up to an Airbus A380 is being built, and the runway was extended to 3800 meters ten years ago.

Passenger numbers have stabilised for the time being at least, but are still well below their peak, so there's more than enough airside capacity for Amazon to grow at Hahn, whether they decide to buy it, or just establish a base.

737max

Hahn has two good things going for it:
The people in the locality depend on it so aren't disagreeable to further development.
The americans left so much brownfield site around the airstrip that those who wish to develop it don't have to contend with treehuggers objecting to development.

munchkin_utd

737max wrote: »

Hahn has two good things going for it:
The people in the locality depend on it so aren't disagreeable to further development.
The americans left so much brownfield site around the airstrip that those who wish to develop it don't have to contend with treehuggers objecting to development.

also, a very very important consideration for someone operating freight aircraft is the possibility to land and take off at night.
DHL had a massive saga to be able to have operations at night in Leipzig which went to the highest courts in the land, but amazon shouldnt have anything to fear at Hahn which does not have a night flight ban currently.

As for a strategic location, its not near a major city, but it is bang in between Holland and Belgium and Nord Rhine Westfalen, so youve the population the equivalent of England basically a 2 or 3 hour drive away, and indeed on empty motorways to a large extent ! And should you want to land products from the far east into Europe with Hahn as the base, then you are only a few hours to Calais or Dunkirk. The Hahn runway is 3800m long, so plenty long for large cargo planes.

Theres 3000 working in the DHL logistics centre at Leipzig airport. For an area in the back end of beyond like Hahn something similar would be a very attractive prospect and amazon would likely not have to pay top dollar either to get staff to work for them.

So yea, theres plenty of reasons why the rumour could be true

munchkin_utd

anyhow, in related news, there was a deal made a while back to sell Hahn to some chinese crowd Shanghai Yiqian Trading Co. Ltd. (SYT) - who aren't well known in China, so not-well-known that even in the building where they have their registered office you cant actually find the company, just an empty floor and some tyre sales company instead.

So, that deal now looks to be off as they have failed to meet some deadline, and the regional government is being accused of trying to delay insolvency proceedings by a dodgy deal with a fake partner abroad.
BTW, the credentials of the alleged partner were checked to the highest extent by KPMG (no doubt for a massive fee too)

Nobody is sure what that means for the future of the loss making airport

EDIT: heres the HQ of the company looking to transform Hahn into a world beating airline! Very impressive (and the offices above are empty BTW)

munchkin_utd

the story is getting even more bizarre.

Aparantly a jewels dealer from near Hahn is the man who signed the contract to buy the airport.
The lad who asked him to buy Hahn airport on his behalf, was a chinese fella who bought jewels off him now and again.
The Chinese lad is a pilot for Yangtze River Express cargo lines, who in turn was asked to buy the airport on behalf of the company which is based in the empty offices above the tyre shop.
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/politik/inland/kaufvertrag-fuer-flughafen-hahn-von-bernsteinhaendler-unterzeichnet-14325156.html

You couldnt make this stuff up, and again, KPMG (a company who charge millions for their services including 76million for helping NAMA, and not forgetting not seeing a bit of any fifa corruption) signed off on the whole bizarre business on behalf of the 2 local Governments who own the airport.

Blut2

The biggest question mark there has to be on KPMG. Some dodgy Chinese investor or a local jeweler being iffy is odd but obviously makes sense in light of them profiting somehow. And the local government obviously has an incentive to believe in the deal. But KPMG signing off on the deal is the most bizarre part. Wonder what defense/reasoning they'll give.

munchkin_utd

Blut2 wrote: »

The biggest question mark there has to be on KPMG. Some dodgy Chinese investor or a local jeweler being iffy is odd but obviously makes sense in light of them profiting somehow. And the local government obviously has an incentive to believe in the deal. But KPMG signing off on the deal is the most bizarre part. Wonder what defense/reasoning they'll give.

Its a pure sham that KPMG arent in the focus here more than the politicans who believed that KPMG knew what they were at.

KPMG in Focus After Botched Airport Deal

Auditors at KPMG gave their approval for an unknown Chinese company to buy Frankfurt-Hahn Airport, a small airport west of Frankfurt. But when the investors failed to meet payment deadlines, the state halted the deal. Now there are suspicions the deal was bogus.

When the Shanghai Yiqian Trading Company offered €13 million for the unprofitable airport at Frankfurt-Hahn, the majority shareholders, the German state of Rhineland-Palatinate, jumped at the chance.

Auditors from the consultancy firm, KPMG, signed off on the deal, having determined that the previously unknown Chinese firm had sufficient liquidity.

But this week, the state government halted the deal; Shanghai Yiqian Trading had not paid on time. The Social Democrat-led coalition government in Rhineland-Palatinate is now in a tricky position and will be required to explain the deal. KPMG, which was handling the sale, will also be in the hot seat.

https://global.handelsblatt.com/edition/462/ressort/companies-markets/article/kpmg-in-hot-seat-over-frankfurt-airport-deal

737max

The last offers for Frankfurt Hahn are being submitted this week. I heard there were 6 offers on the Radio but 12 are mentioned here.

In other news I heard that Amazon are opening another warehouse in the locality.
Don't be surprised if Amazon are a party to the winning bid either directly or indirectly.

http://hessenschau.de/wirtschaft/frankfurt-hahn-nimmt-letzte-angebote-entgegen,hahn-fristende-100.html

It is an interesting event as it will probably give an indication as to the general future of non-white elephant secondary airports.

munchkin_utd

At least one bidder has withdrawn specifically because the Ryanair deal on landing fees was recently extended for 5 years which limits the scope for recouping the investment .

One of the bidders (a Chinese cargo company and local company joint bid) stalled before demanding full info on the Ryanair deal.

And strangely, kpmg is still involved as the consultants on the deal despite their previous cock up

737max

Amazon open new depot and should be a customer for the airport if they don't buy it as was previously speculated.
http://www.internetworld.de/e-commerce/amazon/amazon-baut-neues-logistikzentrum-in-frankenthal-1145598.html

munchkin_utd

munchkin_utd wrote: »

<snip>
And strangely, kpmg is still involved as the consultants on the deal despite their previous cock up

KPMG finally now getting the boot, with an agreed fee scheme very much to the benefit of the local government. The delay in kicking them out after their spectacular ineptitude might well have been to do with fees.
http://www.faz.net/aktuell/wirtschaft/unternehmen/wegen-verkaufsdebakel-rheinland-pfalz-trennt-sich-von-beraterfirma-kpmg-14537706.html

latest is that theres 3 bids out of an original 6 now remaining and Grant Thornton are now appointed to deal with the sale.