Some clarification please

weisses

I got a yellow for this post

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=99346173&postcount=2638

Reason .. I was being uncivil, I disagreed completely with this but decided in the end not to go to DRP ...Then a couple of days later Quin Dub only gave a on thread warning here http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=99388451&postcount=2883

So I am genuinely confused about who and what is sanctioned these days

Not having a go at mods but wanted to point out this totally different approach by different mods

Maybe some clarification could be given about this?

Thanks

Spear

You need to use "copy link location", not try to select and copy, as both those links are dud.

weisses

Will sort that out straight away .. Thanks Spear

Toots

Hi weisses, I'll have a look at this, I'll post back here when I've some more info.

CabanSail

I am a bit lost as to why you have linked these things together. While being a current Mod in that forum I did not undertake either action, though I agree with both.

In the first instance your reply was out of line. It starts off OK

This is a private forum .. With clear guidelines as to what is acceptable

Then you take it a bit further.

....Let me guess ... You didn't read that ?!?

If however you would start your own right wing anti Islam forum, you can spout as much nonsense as you want

I am assuming it was for the second part you were given the Warning. A Warning is just a way that Mods can let you know that your post has a problem and you need to be careful. It is not an infraction. It is on a post to also serve to warn others that the content is not acceptable. When these are issued the reasons are from a pull down menu. The default is "Being Uncivil" which is a bit of a catch all. It could have also been "Backseat Moderation", "Breach of Forum Charter", "Personal Abuse" or a few others. In this case it does not fit any so the "Being Uncivil" is close enough. In essence you were attacking a poster who was well out of line, but two wrongs don't make a right (maybe a slight left in Bulgaria?)

In the second post you have highlighted you are not specifically referenced, except in the general manner for everyone.

OK...

Both of you cut it out - Getting way too personal in here of late..

I'd recommend that everyone in this thread take a read of the updated Café Charter before they post again.

Thank you.

Here two others were bickering and a Moderation Note was issued in thread. Part of it was addressed to the two protagonists. Then it makes it clear that others should not indulge in similar behaviour and to take note of the updated forum charter, with a link. This is just another tool used by Moderators to manage a thread. This is a visible warning to all, some of the other management techniques are not visible. Different people do things in different ways. It is why we have a variety of moderators in a forum. Those Moderators are then overseen by the Category Mods and then by Admin.

Does this answer you concern?

weisses

I fail to see how my post is uncivil

If this

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=99413850&postcount=2960

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=99348191&postcount=2647

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=99329508&postcount=2571

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=99329246&postcount=2568

seems fine

I can come up with dozens and dozens more examples


As to the second point.. If my post is uncivil then why are the two other posts I linked to stating

people like you are responsible when they kill people. You are aiding and abetting violent Islamic terrorism indirectly

And

Firstly - congrats on the crazy - that's some primo nonsense you're coming out with.

Only dealt with by given an on thread warning ... This is attacking the poster or personal abuse ... This Has nothing to do with an updated charter.

Its only a yellow yes ... But it stays on the record..That's why I want it removed if possible. Seeing this in the correct context then I think my yellow is harsh.

Crann na Beatha

This post has been deleted.

weisses

JT26 wrote: »

Did you report all those posts?

Im not sure If it was one of these posts ..I did report some posts though

I was not particularly bothered by any of them, In hindsight however they are relevant when it comes to why I think my yellow was harsh

I can look up many.. many more posts in the same line.

Having said that

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=99261440

And that's only a few days earlier.

Toots

No matter how close an eye a mod is keeping on a thread, they can't be online all the time. We have lives outside of boards. Threads like that one have a massive volume of posts. If you don't report a post, in a thread that big it's easy to miss one.

I'm not sure what else I can add to CabanSail's post above. If you want to appeal your warning you need to post in Dispute Resolution and it will be dealt with there.

weisses

Toots wrote: »

No matter how close an eye a mod is keeping on a thread, they can't be online all the time..

Of course they cannot, I remembered the Jack N Gif thats why I posted it. You can call it ironic then

Toots wrote: »

We have lives outside of boards. Threads like that one have a massive volume of posts. If you don't report a post, in a thread that big it's easy to miss one.

Believe it or not I have a life outside boards to and I spotted all these posts and many more quite quick

You cannot label this inconsistent modding to the fact that I or others did not report posts, Like I said earlier they did not bother me to much at the time but when I get a card for a post that is less offending, only then the other posts came to light

Anyone can overlook a post or two ... That's why I posted 4 .. and there are many more

However the whole standard response of posters not reporting doesn't fly with the on thread warning given by Quin dub to posts worse then mine, keep in mind the updated charter as well which should act as a warning to posters.

Toots wrote: »

I'm not sure what else I can add to CabanSail's post above. If you want to appeal your warning you need to post in Dispute Resolution and it will be dealt with there.

My warning should be seen in context in a way the thread is modded looking at it from that angle my post was not uncivil... That is why we are here ... In DRP I cannot bring in the inconsistent approach on that thread by mods.

It would be nice if someone actually engaged in the points I am addressing, Already I see the standard response often seen here in helpdesk and DRP

K-9

It would be rare cafe mods hand out yellows without an on thread warning or two previously. Was there any of those aimed at you before this weisses?


Doesn't have to specifically aimed at you, could be a more general warning and then somebody ignores it.

weisses

K-9 wrote: »

It would be rare cafe mods hand out yellows without an on thread warning or two previously. Was there any of those aimed at you before this weisses?

Nope nothing aimed at me ever, I even think none in any politics thread I posted in

K-9 wrote: »

Doesn't have to specifically aimed at you, could be a more general warning and then somebody ignores it.

Several times in the give or take 22k posts this thread has .. Thread got locked for review several times in the early days.

Just to stress out again that I'm not here to have a go at the mods .. (they are in general way more patient then I could ever be) But I find the sanction (only a yellow i know) a bit excessive and inconsistent as per my examples above.

An on thread warning or a pm would have been sufficient in this case I think.
I am not a "troublemaker" ..At least not that I'm aware of

weisses

Any progress?

weisses

I know the whole forum was nuked, but my point of inconsistency in the moderating still stands as it pre dates this move.

Can someone look into the facts I presented so we can move on.

K-9

Sorry for the delay.

My understanding is that there was a pretty stern on thread mod warning before your post that got the warning. Is that correct?

weisses

K-9 wrote: »

Sorry for the delay.

My understanding is that there was a pretty stern on thread mod warning before your post that got the warning. Is that correct?

No problem ... The mods involved in politics were busy enough...

There were several warnings dealing with all kinds of issues during the lifetime of that thread

That's where the inconsistent approach in dealing with various posts comes into play ... As I Showed in the various examples after my yellow

K-9

weisses wrote: »

No problem ... The mods involved in politics were busy enough...

There were several warnings dealing with all kinds of issues during the lifetime of that thread

That's where the inconsistent approach in dealing with various posts comes into play ... As I Showed in the various examples after my yellow

Indeed, there were numerous on thread warnings from general warnings to ones telling posters to cop on, to others warning the thread was in danger of getting shut down.

I also see a lot of red and yellow cards handed out too. I really don't think you were singled out, I can see you and another poster got carded round about the same time.

I'll take a look at the other posts tomorrow.

weisses

K-9 wrote: »

Indeed, there were numerous on thread warnings from general warnings to ones telling posters to cop on, to others warning the thread was in danger of getting shut down.

I also see a lot of red and yellow cards handed out too. I really don't think you were singled out, I can see you and another poster got carded round about the same time.

I'll take a look at the other posts tomorrow.

Even in the context of the warnings I still feel my yellow was harsh.

There were many, and I mean many posts who were worse then mine and did not receive a card ... A On thread warning at most.

I am not saying I was singled out .. I am pointing to the fact the moderation was inconsistent.. With various valid examples.. I did not even brought in the inconsistency in how was dealt with people link dumping.

The issue I'm highlighting is actually confirmed with the temporary closing down and the nuking of the whole forum I think.

K-9

weisses wrote: »

Even in the context of the warnings I still feel my yellow was harsh.

Ah yeah, that's fine. Reviewing the page leading up to the couple of cards handed out, I think it was a fair call.

There were many, and I mean many posts who were worse then mine and did not receive a card ... A On thread warning at most.

Others have mentioned that it is difficult to catch everything, but many, many cards and bans were handed out.

I am not saying I was singled out .. I am pointing to the fact the moderation was inconsistent.. With various valid examples.. I did not even brought in the inconsistency in how was dealt with people link dumping.

In a thread that size and with that many posts per day it's difficult to catch everything and be 110% consistent.

The issue I'm highlighting is actually confirmed with the temporary closing down and the nuking of the whole forum I think.

Probably more a case that light touch moderation is very difficult on a forum like that. Cards are, in the vast majority of cases, earned by posters despite efforts by mods to avoid them.

weisses

K-9 wrote: »

Ah yeah, that's fine. Reviewing the page leading up to the couple of cards handed out, I think it was a fair call.



Others have mentioned that it is difficult to catch everything, but many, many cards and bans were handed out.



In a thread that size and with that many posts per day it's difficult to catch everything and be 110% consistent.



Probably more a case that light touch moderation is very difficult on a forum like that. Cards are, in the vast majority of cases, earned by posters despite efforts by mods to avoid them.

Can you actually address the actual points I made here ?

http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=99432293&postcount=6

And in that context please explain why It is "fair" I deserved a yellow for my post ? ..

It is inconsistent moderating no matter what spin you want to give it, resulting in the nuking of that forum. You can use a light touch and still be consistent, That changes however if all off a sudden a mod comes in and start handing out yellows left and right, and a day later another mod comes in and decide to give only on thread warnings for way more offensive posts....

K-9

If you want to dispute your yellow, the DRP forum is the place to do that.

K-9

As for the rest, I and others have said it is very difficult, if not impossible to catch every single post in such a busy forum, especially if they aren't reported. You've highlighted some posts you feel warranted cards. That's grand, as we said, somethings get missed. We aren't disagreeing here.

Mods also use other tools besides actions that are visible on thread.

As you said, you haven't said you were singled out, I think your card is fair, you don't, we could go on at this for ages. It's a judgment call and overall, I think the card was correct. You disagreeing is a perfectly valid opinion but I and the mods don't agree.

weisses

K-9 wrote: »

As for the rest, I and others have said it is very difficult, if not impossible to catch every single post in such a busy forum, especially if they aren't reported. You've highlighted some posts you feel warranted cards. That's grand, as we said, somethings get missed. We aren't disagreeing here.

Mods also use other tools besides actions that are visible on thread.

As you said, you haven't said you were singled out, I think your card is fair, you don't, we could go on at this for ages. It's a judgment call and overall, I think the card was correct. You disagreeing is a perfectly valid opinion but I and the mods don't agree.

I am not referring to one single post being missed I posted up four in a Two minute search ... I could have posted dozens more.

Secondly I also posted a mod action taken by Quinn dub against posters who were warned and even banned before ... They got an on thread warning for posts that were worse then mine, you are not even mention this in your reply ... No one did actually

Considering their treatment my card is not fair ....That is where the inconsistency kicked in

We can indeed go on for ages ... Specially if you and other mods/ are avoiding dealing with the specific posts I am referring to...

Maybe be less evasive and deal with what the point raised here

That forum was closed because of the inconsistent moderating ...

K-9

The DRP forum is the place to contest the card, not here.

As I said, posts sometimes get missed, especially if not reported. I don't see what other answer you expect.

You've pointed out sometimes posts gets missed, I've agreed sometimes posts get missed. Normally when people agree on stuff they leave it there.

Your card is fair. It would be inconsistent for us to lift your card and not lift dozens, if not hundreds of other cards on that thread. The argument you are making isn't for your card to be lifted, it's for other posts to get carded. You might not see that, but that's my final decision. Sorry it isn't the answer you want, but removing your card would be inconsistent modding, the exact thing you are complaining about on this very thread.

You can keep thinking the forum was closed for whatever reason you want, only the people involved in coming to the decision to close it know that, obviously enough, we've given the reasons on various threads why, and no, inconsistent modding wasn't one of those.

Sorry for being a bit to the point, but there really isn't much much for me to say.

Taltos

Few points, the forum was not closed for inconsistent moderation. It was closed primarily because of bigots, racists and dicks doing their utmost to spoil it for everyone else, and that thread you quote is one of the worst there, the vitreol, bile and childishness being posted is why the Mods, Cmods and Admin team worked together to try to fix it as opposed to just nuking the forum and walking away for good. I want to thank you and others for flagging that thread, doing so was helpful.

In terms of your yellow, well it's just that, a yellow. Seriously if you want to challenge it go to DRP. But being blunt you were clearly backseat modding, a yellow is not normally issued for that, a minimum of an infraction would be more appropriate. Your choice for DRP though, you might be lucky and get it overturned.

As to your quoted posts. We don't discuss the moderation taken against others, it's just not done. As to the posts themselves, not all of them needed action. For those that did I trust that the mods took whatever action was appropriate and if those posters want to challenge them in DRP I similarly trust in that process to handle such complaints. In terms of the types of problem posts in the forum, these weren't that severe, but as above that thread is of a type we hope never to see here again, it really did bring out the worst of a few small number of posters.

Going forwards if you want to challenge your card go to DRP. But in terms of arguing inconsistent moderations I find no ground here instead I have laid out my reasoning above.

I'll leave this thread open for a day or so but I'll be marking it as resolved.
Again thanks for flagging the thread, it was helpful but sorry I don't agree with your view of inconsistency here, I'm seeing what I see in all the other forums, mods trying to mod to the best of their abilities using the tools given, PMs, on thread warnings, private consul forums, and cards - using any and all of these is all we can ask from any mod team.

weisses

Taltos wrote: »

Few points, the forum was not closed for inconsistent moderation. It was closed primarily because of bigots, racists and dicks doing their utmost to spoil it for everyone else, and that thread you quote is one of the worst there, the vitreol, bile and childishness being posted is why the Mods, Cmods and Admin team worked together to try to fix it as opposed to just nuking the forum and walking away for good. I want to thank you and others for flagging that thread, doing so was helpful.

I posted several valid examples of inconsistency in moderating ... The approach used by the mods was wrong/inconsistent in dealing with all the bile ... The fact no mod/cmod and now admin is actually addressing the blatant inconsistency is quite telling.

You are trying to fix it you said ... But you are not fixing what users were posting you are fixing the way it was moderated. Which was to lenient and inconsistent ... I posted several examples of that. That is why we are here.

I understand you needed a reboot.. But a least admit what went wrong from in moderating and stop the pussyfooting.

Taltos wrote: »

In terms of your yellow, well it's just that, a yellow. Seriously if you want to challenge it go to DRP. But being blunt you were clearly backseat modding, a yellow is not normally issued for that, a minimum of an infraction would be more appropriate. Your choice for DRP though, you might be lucky and get it overturned.

Back seat moderating ?? For more then two weeks I am here talking to mods and Cmods because my post was deemed uncivil .... Now you come along and think its back seat moderating ? ..Are you deliberately being inconsistent ?

JT 26

Dear weisses,

You have been warned for being uncivil.

Typically, this means that you are posting in a needlessly aggressive or confrontational manner being disruptive on the forum or causing stress for the other members. We don't want that here.

Moderator note did also not mention back seat modding which he could and should have done

Caban sail

The default is "Being Uncivil" which is a bit of a catch all. It could have also been "Backseat Moderation", "Breach of Forum Charter", "Personal Abuse" or a few others. In this case it does not fit any so the "Being Uncivil" is close enough

K-9

I think your card is fair, you don't, we could go on at this for ages. It's a judgment call and overall, I think the card was correct.

K-9 Agrees my card is fair in regards to me being uncivil ... Now an admin comes in and says I was not uncivil but back seat moderating?!?!

Could you clarify this please ?

Now you make it look I should be grateful with only a yellow ..Which is even more ridiculous ... Do you even know what bile you had to post in that thread to receive a red card ??? there is the context again

So either 3 cmods and a mod got it wrong .. Or you

This is starting to get embarrassing now.

Taltos wrote: »

As to your quoted posts. We don't discuss the moderation taken against others, it's just not done. As to the posts themselves, not all of them needed action. For those that did I trust that the mods took whatever action was appropriate and if those posters want to challenge them in DRP I similarly trust in that process to handle such complaints. In terms of the types of problem posts in the forum, these weren't that severe, but as above that thread is of a type we hope never to see here again, it really did bring out the worst of a few small number of posters.

I quoted two posts who were much worse then mine .. before they posted the charter was updated plus they got sanctioned before and yet they only got an on thread warning ... What use is this help desk if the actions of moderators cannot be discussed ?

Taltos wrote: »

Going forwards if you want to challenge your card go to DRP. But in terms of arguing inconsistent moderations I find no ground here instead I have laid out my reasoning above.

My yellow must be seen in context with other sanctions on that thread .. DRP does not provide that context .. something I also explained earlier ... In the context to what was allowed on that thread my yellow was harsh. something the mods allowed for over 22000 posts ...And I know because I posted in that thread for a long time.

Taltos wrote: »

I'll leave this thread open for a day or so but I'll be marking it as resolved.
Again thanks for flagging the thread, it was helpful but sorry I don't agree with your view of inconsistency here, I'm seeing what I see in all the other forums, mods trying to mod to the best of their abilities using the tools given, PMs, on thread warnings, private consul forums, and cards - using any and all of these is all we can ask from any mod team.

Really .. ?? I posted blatant examples of inconsistency ... You don't agree with this and in the same post You don't want to discuss why you don't agree with it by hiding behind the good oal "we don't discuss the moderation taken against others" excuse ...

It is the same old circling the wagons approach .. followed by an almost template response

I would like a reaction please ..specially with the "new" reason I got a yellow, and the context that need to be used in determining that yellow.

Context is always applied here on boards by various charters.

Taltos

weisses wrote: »

I would like a reaction please ...

As above we're done here.