Fire door requirements

mapera

Hi All,
We are going through a refurb in the house. In the design for doors there are "Painted flush MDF doors".

Does MDF meet the fire regulation standards or do I need to get something more solid?
Thanks

Gumbo

mapera wrote: »

Hi All,
We are going through a refurb in the house. In the design for doors there are "Painted flush MDF doors".

Does MDF meet the fire regulation standards or do I need to get something more solid?
Thanks

The fire door needs to be provided as a fire door set. So door, ironmongery, hinges and right down to the type and number of screws used. The door itself has to be a stamped certified fire door.

You cannot just make a door on site.

Metric Tensor

Fire doors have very specific requirements (related to time length, smoke, etc.) and come from the manufacturer with appropriate certification. "Painted flush MDF doors" would not be a sufficient specification for a fire door.

However, not all domestic projects require "fire doors" although some do. What did your architect/engineer say about fire doors?

mapera

We had an original design done and that is how they were described "Painted flush MDF doors", we have different architect who is PMing the job.

Are we saying here MDF would NEVER be a suitable material for a fire door, or a suitably certified MDF door would suffice?


It is a domestic project, semi detatched refurb. How can I confirm if the project does or does not require fire doors throughout?

BryanF

mapera wrote: »

We had an original design done and that is how they were described "Painted flush MDF doors", we have different architect who is PMing the job.

Are we saying here MDF would NEVER be a suitable material for a fire door, or a suitably certified MDF door would suffice?


It is a domestic project, semi detatched refurb. How can I confirm if the project does or does not require fire doors throughout?

Is there an attic conversion/extension causing a 'level 2' or '3rd floor'?

Dudda

mapera wrote: »

We had an original design done and that is how they were described "Painted flush MDF doors", we have different architect who is PMing the job.

Are we saying here MDF would NEVER be a suitable material for a fire door, or a suitably certified MDF door would suffice?


It is a domestic project, semi detatched refurb. How can I confirm if the project does or does not require fire doors throughout?

How many stories and where is the kitchen? If you only have two floors it's a lot more relaxed and you probably don't need fire doors at all and the MDF is fine. If you have three floors or the first floor is 4.5 meters above ground floor then you need fire doors and fire construction considered in the walls. The whole thing gets a lot more complicated.

mapera

We have converted in to the attic, so that is effectively a 3rd floor. If I decide that I will only use upstairs for storage though, can I just keep as normal?... I can then retrofit if we do actually start using upstairs as a living area?

I should point out that we do have a bedroom in the attic, but we will not be using it for now.

Metric Tensor

It doesn't matter if you say you are not going to use it - if there's a bedroom there then it's available for use and you need to make the house fire compliant for same.

kceire might confirm how exactly a 2nd floor (third level) is defined.

Gumbo

mapera wrote: »

We have converted in to the attic, so that is effectively a 3rd floor. If I decide that I will only use upstairs for storage though, can I just keep as normal?... I can then retrofit if we do actually start using upstairs as a living area?

I should point out that we do have a bedroom in the attic, but we will not be using it for now.

Is there a fixed staircase to the attic?
If so, then building control do t care if it's storage, office, study, bedroom, dance floor! It needs to meet the requirements for adding an additional storey to a two storey dwelling.

Fire door is required in the attic and only self closers to all other habitable room doors. If at any time in the future you upgrade the doors at ground and first floor level, then these technically need to be changed to certified fire doors at that stage too.

hexosan

If the doors are fire doors do they also have to be self closers

Gumbo

hexosan wrote: »

If the doors are fire doors do they also have to be self closers

All certified fire doors will be self closing.
The retrofitting of a self closing device is for the doors in the lower levels during an attic conversion only. If build on from scratch, all doors have to be certified fire door sets.

In Dublin, Building Control will request certification that the doors are supplied as a set and that they have been fitted in accordance with the Declatation of Performance attached to the doors. In my experience anyway

mapera

Thanks, that makes sense for the standard doors.
One "feature" door we have is downstairs, between the hall and the kitchen diner area. It is a large door (1400mm wide) that slides (disappears) into the wall. Is there any way to incorporate this, its an important detail for the design. Are we saying now that is not allowed under any circumstance?

Metric Tensor

My understanding - kceire will hopefully concur - is that it only applies to the doors that access the hallway/landing into which the stairs discharges.

mapera

This is the layout

Calahonda52

This leaflet may help
http://www.environ.ie/sites/default/files/migrated-files/en/Publications/DevelopmentandHousing/BuildingStandards/FileDownLoad%2C1657%2Cen.pdf

If link does not work search for loft conversion on
http://www.environ.ie/housing/building-standards/tgd-part-d-materials-and-workmanship/technical-guidance-documents


Its up to op and his team to interpret this, I am just posting the link....

in passing how we got to calling them loft conversions..... KC: is this your fault:D

BryanF

mapera wrote: »

We have converted in to the attic, so that is effectively a 3rd floor. If I decide that I will only use upstairs for storage though, can I just keep as normal?... I can then retrofit if we do actually start using upstairs as a living area?

I should point out that we do have a bedroom in the attic, but we will not be using it for now.

Put in the fire doors now

Gumbo

mapera wrote: »

Thanks, that makes sense for the standard doors.
One "feature" door we have is downstairs, between the hall and the kitchen diner area. It is a large door (1400mm wide) that slides (disappears) into the wall. Is there any way to incorporate this, its an important detail for the design. Are we saying now that is not allowed under any circumstance?

mapera wrote: »

This is the layout

Is this a new build house or a renovation which incorporates an attic conversion?

mapera

Ok... so from my (basic) interpretation of that, it's just the doors around the stairwell need to be self closing, and that there should be 2 excape exits at ground floor.

Give access to two escape routes at ground level, separated by fire-resisting construction

I mean does the understairs toilet need to be self closing also?

mapera

It is a renovation

kceire wrote: »

Is this a new build house or a renovation which incorporates an attic conversion?

Gumbo

mapera wrote: »

Ok... so from my (basic) interpretation of that, it's just the doors around the stairwell need to be self closing, and that there should be 2 excape exits at ground floor.

I mean does the understairs toilet need to be self closing also?

No, only habitable rooms. Kitchen, sitting room, any ground floor bedrooms.

mapera wrote: »

It is a renovation

Then the door to the dining room needs to have a self closer retro fitted.
Ask your architect/engineer or whoever is signing off on the works how he can make the sliding door comply with Part B.

There could be other ways to achieve compliance by supplementary options or by fitting compensationary measures.

mapera

Sorry perhaps I wasn't clear. It is a renovation job, but that sliding door is part of the new design, so retrofitting not required.

Im not quite clear then... are we saying it is ok, or it is not ok?

Gumbo

mapera wrote: »

Sorry perhaps I wasn't clear. It is a renovation job, but that sliding door is part of the new design, so retrofitting not required.

Im not quite clear then... are we saying it is ok, or it is not ok?

New design, then it needs to be a fire door set with self closer as per TGD Part B.
Who is signing off on the works? What do they have to say about it?

mapera

The architect would be signing off. This is a different architect than the one that did the original design.
They have said that it is "open to interpretation", which is vague to me (hence why I am here asking!).

I just want to know if it's legal or not. From what you are telling me it would not be compliant. It does seem strange to me though. It seems any custom made door such as this oversized one is illegal as it would not be possible to get this as a "fire door set" from a joiner.

DOCARCH

mapera wrote: »

...as it would not be possible to get this as a "fire door set" from a joiner.

It is possible to get a joinery make and certify a (custom made) fire door set. The joinery has to be certified to certify...if you know what I mean.

Gumbo

mapera wrote: »

The architect would be signing off. This is a different architect than the one that did the original design.
They have said that it is "open to interpretation", which is vague to me (hence why I am here asking!).

You need to take the advice of the guy signing it off I suppose at the end of the day. I wouldn't consider that door to be legal or compliant without other compensationary measures put in place. But as your guys rightly says, its "open to interpretation".

mapera wrote: »

I just want to know if it's legal or not. From what you are telling me it would not be compliant. It does seem strange to me though. It seems any custom made door such as this oversized one is illegal as it would not be possible to get this as a "fire door set" from a joiner.

It is possible, but it will cost you. Its got nothing to do with the over size element, its more to do with the fact that it doesn't self close and slow down the process of smoke entering the escape shaft (stair core).