What happens when an aircraft from a warring country lands in a neutral one?

dogmatix

What happens to an aircraft from a warring country which lands in a neutral one? Can the neutral country keep the aircraft? We have all heard of the B29’s that landed in the USSR during WW2, the aircraft being kept and used to produce the TU-4 copy.

I was reading a book by late, great Eric Brown where he describes test flying a Ju-88G nightfighter. Apparently this aircraft had been flown to Gormanstown, north of Dublin right at the end of the end of WW2 by its crew but Captain Brown heads over the Gormanstown, interviews the Luftwaffe crew and then fly’s the aircraft out of Gormanstown (with some difficulty – the landing strip being only 900 feet long) and back to the UK. He notes he was worried about being shot down by his own side and being potentially the very last Luftwaffe aircraft downed in the war.

But would that aircraft not have been the property of Ireland? Why was it just handed over to the RAF? Such an aircraft would have been a prize exhibit in any museum today.

Del2005

dogmatix wrote: »

What happens to an aircraft from a warring country which lands in a neutral one? Can the neutral country keep the aircraft? We have all heard of the B29’s that landed in the USSR during WW2, the aircraft being kept and used to produce the TU-4 copy.

I was reading a book by late, great Eric Brown where he describes test flying a Ju-88G nightfighter. Apparently this aircraft had been flown to Gormanstown, north of Dublin right at the end of the end of WW2 by its crew but Captain Brown heads over the Gormanstown, interviews the Luftwaffe crew and then fly’s the aircraft out of Gormanstown (with some difficulty – the landing strip being only 900 feet long) and back to the UK. He notes he was worried about being shot down by his own side and being potentially the very last Luftwaffe aircraft downed in the war.

But would that aircraft not have been the property of Ireland? Why was it just handed over to the RAF? Such an aircraft would have been a prize exhibit in any museum today.

It comes down to how neutral the country is. Proper neutral countries inter the crew and aircraft till the conflict ends. We where never neutral in WW2 or the Cold War. German pilots where intered if they landed here while Allied pilot walked across the border. In the cold war we where and still are militarily non aligned.

weisses

dogmatix wrote: »

What happens to an aircraft from a warring country which lands in a neutral one? Can the neutral country keep the aircraft

Shannon would be full of planes if that was the case

Tabnabs

Coincidently I've just read the same book as the OP.

The Luftwaffe crews in question didn't want to end up in the hands of the Soviets, so the senior officer told them all to head to a neutral country. Some went to Sweden and others, remarkably, ended up in Ireland. The British Government was asked by the Irish Government to send over plain clothes pilots in a civilian plane to take these aircraft over to the UK. Which is how they came to leave Ireland in the hands of British pilots.

This is one side of what was probably a much larger story and one which is remarkably unheard of. Like the story of how the Irish Navy got briefly involved in the Dunkirk evacuation, I would imagine it doesn't feed neatly into nationalist narratives and is simply swept under the carpet.

Pat Dunne

I'm afraid to my mind your question is extremely vague.

The B29 example you cite is completely wide of the mark. The B29's which crash landed in Russia during 1944, when both the US and Russia were part of the Allied war effort. The Russian's who were certainly not "neutral" at that stage of the war simply wanted them and kept them, arguing some vague legal mombo jumbo along the way.The Soviets didn't do this to the vast array of Allied ships bringing them supplies throughout the war period!

Also are you referring to civilian and or military craft?

More modern example take Switzerland, which to my mind is a neutral country. Say for instance during the Falklands Island War / Guerra de las Malvinas, did Switzerland hold and/or detain any UK or Argentinian government, military, civil or private aircraft, crews or passengers, none that I recollect.

I'm not even going to enter into a discussion about the US and their various Mid-East adventures.

Basically what you are refering to happened 70 plus years ago and under very different circumstances.

Tenger

In WWII Ireland 'could' have acted as a fully neutral country and impounded all foreign aircraft and aircrews that ended up here. I believe this is what happened with the Swiss in WWII.

In reality they did not. German aircrew were detained (hence the german cemetary in Co.Wicklow) but RAF crew were somehow kept managing to 'evade capture' and cross the border into Northern Ireland.


*as an aside my grandfather used to tell a tale of having to guard a crashlanded single seat British aircraft back during the Emergency while holding an unloaded rifle. The pilot had been escorted north before he was assigned his post (he was whatever our home guard was called)
It came down just south of the border and was left there for a couple of days before mysteriously disappearing on the back of a truck that headed towards Keady and the road to Armagh!
My grandparents house is 2 miles south of the border,happened when my father was "about a year old"....so early to mid 1943 if true.

arubex

As far as I am aware there is no obligation under international law for a neutral country to intern the vessel of a belligerent. It is subjective, as indicated by Ireland's behaviour.

However US military aircraft currently avoid overflying Switzerland due to 1. neutrality and 2. a warrant for the arrest of the former US Commander in Chief...

Dardania

arubex wrote: »

As far as I am aware there is no obligation under international law for a neutral country to intern the vessel of a belligerent. It is subjective, as indicated by Ireland's behaviour.

However US military aircraft currently avoid overflying Switzerland due to 1. neutrality and 2. a warrant for the arrest of the former US Commander in Chief...

I had to find out more - ha!: https://legalift.wordpress.com/2011/02/07/george-bush-calls-off-trip-to-switzerland-amid-fear-of-violence-at-demonstration-or-an-arrest-warrant/

Wurzelbert

all a question of power and politics…but i think internment of crew and aircraft would be the normal procedure…the swiss would also have a few stories to tell…

dogmatix

Pat Dunne wrote: »

The B29 example you cite is completely wide of the mark. The B29's which crash landed in Russia during 1944, when both the US and Russia were part of the Allied war effort. The Russian's who were certainly not "neutral" at that stage of the war simply wanted them and kept them, arguing some vague legal mombo jumbo along the way.

But Russia was neutral in relation to Japan at the time - they only went to war with Japan in late 1945. But I suppose the US overlooked the loss of the three aircraft as long as the crews where returned and "Uncle Joe" was kept sweet! But i'd love to know the whole story behind that affair.

dogmatix

Slightly different question - what happens when a pilot defects to another country. I assume the case for returning the aircraft (not the pilot!) to the original owner is much stronger?

Isn't there a story about the soviets demanding the return of one such aircraft and the US complying and returning the aircraft completely stripped down, right down to the individual nuts and bolts. It would be funny if it was true?

Tenger

dogmatix wrote: »

But Russia was neutral in relation to Japan at the time - they only went to war with Japan in late 1945. But I suppose the US overlooked the loss of the three aircraft as long as the crews where returned and "Uncle Joe" was kept sweet! But i'd love to know the whole story behind that affair.

Try using the internet:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tupolev_Tu-4

The U.S. twice refused to supply the Soviet Union with B-29s under Lend Lease. However, on four occasions during 1944, individual B-29s made emergency landings in Soviet territory and one crashed after the crew bailed out...... In accordance with the Soviet–Japanese Neutrality Pact, the Soviets were neutral in the Pacific War and the bombers were therefore interned and kept by the Soviets. Despite Soviet neutrality, America demanded the return of the bombers, but the Soviets refused..................With the Soviet declaration of war against Japan in accordance with the Yalta agreement to enter the war within 90 days of VE day.............. and the subsequent entente with Japan ending, the fourth B-29 was returned to the US along with its crew.

dogmatix wrote: »

.....Isn't there a story about the soviets demanding the return of one such aircraft and the US complying and returning the aircraft completely stripped down, right down to the individual nuts and bolts. It would be funny if it was true?

Mig-25= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Viktor_Belenko
Mig-15= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No_Kum-sok
Mig-29= https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aleksandr_Zuyev_(pilot)

Tenger

This thread will be locked if it continues in this vein. Do your own research online and perhaps discuss the subject matter here. Dont throw out questions thinking that other posters are here to answer your thoughts like Google or Siri. The above was your last assist

prinzeugen

There was also the case of the Vulcan that had to make a emergency landing in Rio de Janeiro during the Falklands War.

Its refueling probe broke and so the crew had no choice but head to Rio. They managed to jettison all the weapons bar one sidewinder missile.

The crew and plane were only allowed to leave once the UK agreed that the aircraft would take no further part in the conflict.

billy few mates

Remember this one from the Libyan revolution in 2011 where two fighter jets diverted to Malta and sat out the war there. The Libyan government at the time protested and demanded their return but the Maltese impounded the A/C until the war ended...


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8772115/Libyan-fighter-pilots-who-fled-to-Malta-receive-heroes-welcome-in-Tripoli.html

andy_g

billy few mates wrote: »

Remember this one from the Libyan revolution in 2011 where two fighter jets diverted to Malta and sat out the war there. The Libyan government at the time protested and demanded their return but the Maltese impounded the A/C until the war ended...


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worldnews/africaandindianocean/libya/8772115/Libyan-fighter-pilots-who-fled-to-Malta-receive-heroes-welcome-in-Tripoli.html

This happened as the both pilots refused to fire on their own people. They also brought the same aircraft and pilots back the following year for the airshow.