Lack of car de-registration facilities.

CiniO

It looks like there's no such thing in Ireland. Why?
Once car get's into database, it stays there forever associated to it's last owner.

My Examples.

1. Car crashed. Towed by main dealer who had contract with insurance company. Insurance company offered contact for vehicle salvage firm who will take the wreck for €400. Main dealer where car was stored already, offered €600 so I gave it to them. Logbook handed. It was 5 years ago, and car is still in the system. It's obvious car doesn't exist anymore as it was stripped for parts, but I can still tax it, book it for NCT, etc...


2. Car sold to foreign buyer for export. Logbook handed to the buyer. Car obviously still in my name here - tax reminders coming in post. I would love to inform them that car is not in Ireland anymore, but there's no facility to do it.

3. Car exported abroad by me, and registered there (within EU). Foreign authority surely send information to Shannon that now car is registered by them. But car is still in the system, and tax reminders come by post.


There must be millions of vehicles still in the system, even though they don't exist anymore. Why can't this be taken care of and done properly?

colm_mcm

But where's the issue really though?
I'm sure they'd be delighted if you taxed a car with 5 years back tax on it!

savagethegoat

there is no issue. It's that way to stop the system being misused.

grogi

savagethegoat wrote: »

there is no issue. It's that way to stop the system being misused.

Once the a facitly like that is is introduced and later required by law, it would be much easier to identify and pursue Motortax evaders.

Car99

grogi wrote: »

Once the a facitly like that is is introduced and later required by law, it would be much easier to identify and pursue Motortax evaders.

Well we don't want that do we.

Del2005

grogi wrote: »

Once the a facitly like that is is introduced and later required by law, it would be much easier to identify and pursue Motortax evaders.

ANPR will pick up a vehicle without tax, which is only required for use on the public road. Plenty of cars don't use the public road.

5500

It's also open to abuse, lots of tax books knocking about for Jap cars, X car gets imported and then plated/taxed as the vlc that the person buys so no vrt has to be paid.

wonski

5500 wrote: »

It's also open to abuse, lots of tax books knocking about for Jap cars, X car gets imported and then plated/taxed as the vlc that the person buys so no vrt has to be paid.

Don't they check vin numbers in the nct centres?

I am sure they do.

Now, this wouldn't stop one from changing vin etc, but this is fraud big time anyway so changing the law wouldn't stop this kind of people from doing just that

CiniO

colm_mcm wrote: »

But where's the issue really though?

There is few issues actually.

Ones I can think of:

1. Lack of consequences of not finishing vehicle life properly, leads to plenty of vehicles being stipped for parts not by authorised vehicle salvage firms, but by private people in their gardens, sheds, etc...
Anyone can just strip car for parts, sell the parts, and dump whatever is left anywhere. Burn it somehwere, etc... That's a reality what is happening with those vehicles.
If we had some consequences for not ending vehicle life properly (with salvage facility) then this shouldn't be the case.

2. Vehicle paperwork being available wideldy for vehicles which don't exist anymore. F.e. as per example above. While I technically don't have logbooks for those vehicles anymore, but I could apply to shannon for replacement, and get logbooks. Such paperwork might be worth money on it's own for the market of people who want to buy it just for sake of using it for registering stolen vehicles with forged VIN numbers. Not necesserily in Ireland, but anywhere in EU or outside.

Henry Ford III

CiniO wrote: »

There is few issues actually.

Ones I can think of:

1. Lack of consequences of not finishing vehicle life properly, leads to plenty of vehicles being stipped for parts not by authorised vehicle salvage firms, but by private people in their gardens, sheds, etc...
Anyone can just strip car for parts, sell the parts, and dump whatever is left anywhere. Burn it somehwere, etc... That's a reality what is happening with those vehicles.
If we had some consequences for not ending vehicle life properly (with salvage facility) then this shouldn't be the case.

2. Vehicle paperwork being available wideldy for vehicles which don't exist anymore. F.e. as per example above. While I technically don't have logbooks for those vehicles anymore, but I could apply to shannon for replacement, and get logbooks. Such paperwork might be worth money on it's own for the market of people who want to buy it just for sake of using it for registering stolen vehicles with forged VIN numbers. Not necesserily in Ireland, but anywhere in EU or outside.

So what?

I'm sure if you could think of some revenue neutral way of tidying up end of life vehicles and their destruction it'd be looked at.

Your points aren't really issues, more minor hastles.

JohnBoy26

CiniO wrote: »

There is few issues actually.

Ones I can think of:

1. Lack of consequences of not finishing vehicle life properly, leads to plenty of vehicles being stipped for parts not by authorised vehicle salvage firms, but by private people in their gardens, sheds, etc...
Anyone can just strip car for parts, sell the parts, and dump whatever is left anywhere. Burn it somehwere, etc... That's a reality what is happening with those vehicles.
If we had some consequences for not ending vehicle life properly (with salvage facility) then this shouldn't be the case.

2. Vehicle paperwork being available wideldy for vehicles which don't exist anymore. F.e. as per example above. While I technically don't have logbooks for those vehicles anymore, but I could apply to shannon for replacement, and get logbooks. Such paperwork might be worth money on it's own for the market of people who want to buy it just for sake of using it for registering stolen vehicles with forged VIN numbers. Not necesserily in Ireland, but anywhere in EU or outside.

You're clutching at straws.

jimgoose

wonski wrote: »

Don't they check vin numbers in the nct centres?

I am sure they do.

Now, this wouldn't stop one from changing vin etc, but this is fraud big time anyway so changing the law wouldn't stop this kind of people from doing just that

Theoretically they check VIN numbers, but in practice it seems not. One of our yokes had a one-character typo in the VIN on the VLC that I spotted myself only last year (after many years and NCTs!) while ordering parts, and I went about having it corrected.

CiniO

Henry Ford III wrote: »

So what?

I'm sure if you could think of some revenue neutral way of tidying up end of life vehicles and their destruction it'd be looked at.

Your points aren't really issues, more minor hastles.

Well, considering that Ireland is probably the only country in the EU, where vehicles are not being deregistered on end of their life or export - surely that's only minor hastles - not issues. That's your understanding.

My understanding is that it actually is a major issue.

And yes - I can think of very simple way of sorting this out.
Create obligation for any vehicle to be either taxed or declared off the road.
To prevent people from falsely declaring off the road vehicles which doesn't exist anymore, a small fee for any subsequent declaration should be introduced.

That way vehicles owners would take care, that vehicle which doesn't exist is not still hanging on the system.

jimgoose

According to this, a scrapped vehicle is supposed to be issued with a Certificate of Destruction, details of which are forwarded to Shannon:

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/travel_and_recreation/motoring_1/buying_or_selling_a_vehicle/how_to_dispose_of_an_end_of_life_vehicle.html

The exporting thing isn't properly catered for though, as far as I can see.

CiniO

jimgoose wrote: »

According to this, a scrapped vehicle is supposed to be issued with a Certificate of Destruction, details of which are forwarded to Shannon:

http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en

The exporting thing isn't properly catered for though, as far as I can see.

That's where the problem lies.
There is a facility to properly dispose end of life vehicles, it is an offence not to do so, but there is completely no eforcement on people who don't.

Henry Ford III

CiniO wrote: »

Well, considering that Ireland is probably the only country in the EU.....

Possibly or probably? Sounds like guesswork to me.

Either way even enforcement of all motoring laws is a way bigger issue imho.

Del2005

CiniO wrote: »

Well, considering that Ireland is probably the only country in the EU, where vehicles are not being deregistered on end of their life or export - surely that's only minor hastles - not issues. That's your understanding.

My understanding is that it actually is a major issue.

And yes - I can think of very simple way of sorting this out.
Create obligation for any vehicle to be either taxed or declared off the road.
To prevent people from falsely declaring off the road vehicles which doesn't exist anymore, a small fee for any subsequent declaration should be introduced.

That way vehicles owners would take care, that vehicle which doesn't exist is not still hanging on the system.

What is the major issue though?

EOL certs only came in a few years ago so there's so many vehicles that it would be impossible to implement retroactively. It could only be done for currently taxed, or declared off the road, vehicles which doesn't solve your problem.

millington

Going through the VRT rebate process will probably do this but it's a pain in the ass.


I'd be more worried about the car being left on Irish plates and driven down here, speeding fines etc. would end up in your name.

Mate of mine sold a car to the north lately and Shannon said they could do nothing really, strange

CiniO

Henry Ford III wrote: »

Possibly or probably? Sounds like guesswork to me.

Well, probably as I'm not familiar with law in all other countries.
But I know for sure, you have to deregister a vehicle once you scrap it or sell abroad for export in France, Germany, Italy, Belgium, Netherland, Poland, Slovakia, Czech Republic, Spain, etc...
I doubt there's many countries, where you can just do whatever you like with the car, and no one's going to mind.

Either way even enforcement of all motoring laws is a way bigger issue imho.

Maybe, but it doesn't mean this isn't an issue.

CiniO

Del2005 wrote: »

What is the major issue though?

EOL certs only came in a few years ago so there's so many vehicles that it would be impossible to implement retroactively. It could only be done for currently taxed, or declared off the road, vehicles which doesn't solve your problem.

Well, indeed you can't implement it retrospectively, but as you say you can for currently taxed or declared off the road cars.
And that's the way to go.

JohnBoy26

You still haven't really given us any evidence of any major issue with this though. The only issue you could come up with was some lad taking apart a car in his back garden as oppose to brining it to a breakers yard (or if you want to put it more elegantly a "salvage facility"). Does something as trivial as that really bother you that much?

MojoMaker

It clearly does and to be honest does not belong on a motoring forum - fees for scrapping, fees for SORD....Jaysus.

CiniO

CiniO wrote: »

1. Lack of consequences of not finishing vehicle life properly, leads to plenty of vehicles being stipped for parts not by authorised vehicle salvage firms, but by private people in their gardens, sheds, etc...
Anyone can just strip car for parts, sell the parts

So people shouldn't be allowed strip a car they own and sell the parts absolute nonsense.

Where are all these cars being dumped, I've never in my life seen bits of a car dumped somewhere (excluding stolen cars burned out etc). When people strip cars they usually send the leftover off for scrap or pile it up in their own yard which they are entitled to do.

CiniO wrote: »

Create obligation for any vehicle to be either taxed or declared off the road.
To prevent people from falsely declaring off the road vehicles which doesn't exist anymore, a small fee for any subsequent declaration should be introduced.

So now you want to start charging people who have vehicles off the road? Mother of god, its bad enough having to pay tax when they are on the road. Loads of people have cars and other vehicles that are in use on private land or are being kept off the road for year and years for different reasons and they should not have to keep remembering to declare them off the road or have to pay to do it.

This is possibly one of the biggest non-issues ever to get a thread on boards.

CiniO

Simon Small Saxophonist wrote: »

So people shouldn't be allowed strip a car they own and sell the parts absolute nonsense.

Well - I think they shouldn't.

What do you think is happening with all the oils, fluids, etc...
Might be few honest people who will bring it to recycling centre, most will dump it into the ditch.

Where are all these cars being dumped, I've never in my life seen bits of a car dumped somewhere (excluding stolen cars burned out etc). When people strip cars they usually send the leftover off for scrap or pile it up in their own yard which they are entitled to do.

In my area there's lots. Plenty of cars leftovers dumped on the beaches, mountains, etc...

So now you want to start charging people who have vehicles off the road? Mother of god, its bad enough having to pay tax when they are on the road. Loads of people have cars and other vehicles that are in use on private land or are being kept off the road for year and years for different reasons and they should not have to keep remembering to declare them off the road or have to pay to do it.

This is possibly one of the biggest non-issues ever to get a thread on boards.

Well surely all EU is wrong, Ireland is right to let people dump their cars wherever they want.

George Dalton

CiniO wrote: »

Well surely all EU is wrong, Ireland is right to let people dump their cars wherever they want.

The big problem with the EU is that there are too many people with your outlook occupying positions of power

Creating issues out of non issues is a special talent for some people. Case in point:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/9526693/Motorists-face-EU-ban-for-modifying-cars.html

CiniO

George Dalton wrote: »

The big problem with the EU is that there are too many people with your outlook occupying positions of power

Creating issues out of non issues is a special talent for some people. Case in point:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/motoring/news/9526693/Motorists-face-EU-ban-for-modifying-cars.html

Well prohibition of modifying cars is just nuts...

Requirement of ending vehicle life in scrapyard as opposed to having it burned on the beach, or possibility to take vehicle off the record when it's exported abroad, is something a bit different, don't you think?

CiniO

CiniO wrote: »

Requirement of ending vehicle life in scrapyard as opposed to having it burned on the beach, or possibility to take vehicle off the record when it's exported abroad, is something a bit different, don't you think?

Except all these cars on beaches and ditches are in your imagination. You will come across an odd burned out car that was stolen or whatever but that's it.

Your proposals are idiotic and you won't find anyone else in the the country to agree with them.

Del2005

CiniO wrote: »

Well prohibition of modifying cars is just nuts...

Requirement of ending vehicle life in scrapyard as opposed to having it burned on the beach, or possibility to take vehicle off the record when it's exported abroad, is something a bit different, don't you think?

There are already laws against burning or dumping cars but they aren't enforced. All your proposal will do is penalise the law abiding person and the illegal dumping and burning will continue.

millington

CiniO wrote: »

Well - I think they shouldn't.

What do you think is happening with all the oils, fluids, etc...
Might be few honest people who will bring it to recycling centre, most will dump it into the ditch.


In my area there's lots. Plenty of cars leftovers dumped on the beaches, mountains, etc...

And do you think said people will stop doing this if the law suddenly says they can't break cars?

I've broken a few cars over the years and disposed of everything properly. Nothing wrong with doing that. The people who do dump, will still dump regardless of what the law says considering what they are doing is wrong anyway.