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Castletimon dolmen damaged

Comments

  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,253 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    Are there any ideas as to how this damage occurred? It looks like soil has been piled up on top of the structure. Was this from farming activity? I would imagine it would need some sort of vehicle to cause that sort of damage. Hardly a couple of drunks playing around. :mad::( There needs to be far greater penalties for this sort of thing.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,223 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Are there any ideas as to how this damage occurred? It looks like soil has been piled up on top of the structure. Was this from farming activity? I would imagine it would need some sort of vehicle to cause that sort of damage. Hardly a couple of drunks playing around. :mad::( There needs to be far greater penalties for this sort of thing.
    It was from intensive farming.
    A contractor was brought in, and had no idea there was a megalith present...apparently.

    This brings up an interesting question: should there be an onus on landowners to keep monuments clear of vegetation and should they be clearly signposted?


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,253 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    slowburner wrote: »
    It was from intensive farming.
    A contractor was brought in, and had no idea there was a megalith present...apparently.
    Yeah, that's not shady an excuse. No, not at all. I'd believe that. Sorry, have to go, I've some magic beans to buy…
    This brings up an interesting question: should there be an onus on landowners to keep monuments clear of vegetation and should they be clearly signposted?
    Yes IMHO and I've known two farmers and one rural landowner who have done just that. Then again, I had a conversation with the last chap who had such a monument in his field cum garden(no farming involved) and he was also concerned that any interference including removing shrubs might be frowned upon and he'd get in trouble. It would need to be clear and advertised widely to let folks like him know what was OK and what wasn't.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 30 p___


    Wibbs wrote: »
    Yeah, that's not shady an excuse. No, not at all. I'd believe that. Sorry, have to go, I've some magic beans to buy…


    Yes IMHO and I've known two farmers and one rural landowner who have done just that. Then again, I had a conversation with the last chap who had such a monument in his field cum garden(no farming involved) and he was also concerned that any interference including removing shrubs might be frowned upon and he'd get in trouble. It would need to be clear and advertised widely to let folks like him know what was OK and what wasn't.

    I've been told of a farm in rural Tipperary that had a ringfort on it, the farmer ignored the warnings not to damage it and leveled the entire thing with a bulldozer. A few days later the fairies got him, he was found dead in the hay barn. Apparently got locked, slipped and got stuck upside down between a load of bails of hay. **** way to go. True story...

    In terms of human punishment though, I would suggest that there needs to be proper deterrents in order to stop this type of thing happening. They obviously know who did it, not know the site was important is a lie- nobody is that stupid or ill-informed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 509 ✭✭✭wayoutwest


    Such a shame -no excuses, as the monument was locally known about and was well defined within tillage field.
    Pic taken in 1930's Brittas_Dolmem_C_1930_001_s.jpeg
    Pic taken in 1991 1020.jpeg


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 509 ✭✭✭wayoutwest


    I would suggest that the hefty fine for this act of vandalism would be best spent on a scheme that pays annual grants to landowners who stockproof and protect any megaliths or barrows that are on their land. Looking on u.k websites, it looks like these grant/agreement schemes are in place. The landowner becomes a 'guardian' and so becomes the BEST person to keep an eye on, and protect the structure, as it is in HIS/HER interest to do so. This type of community envolvement would surely help massively in combating the 'ah sure, but t'was old and falling down anyway' mentality. Sending a letter to each landowner informing him of what he has on his land and how old and important it is would be a good start -especially if it required some sort of declaration of acknowledgement.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭Arsemageddon


    wayoutwest wrote: »
    I would suggest that the hefty fine for this act of vandalism would be best spent on a scheme that pays annual grants to landowners who stockproof and protect any megaliths or barrows that are on their land. Looking on u.k websites, it looks like these grant/agreement schemes are in place. The landowner becomes a 'guardian' and so becomes the BEST person to keep an eye on, and protect the structure, as it is in HIS/HER interest to do so. This type of community envolvement would surely help massively in combating the 'ah sure, but t'was old and falling down anyway' mentality. Sending a letter to each landowner informing him of what he has on his land and how old and important it is would be a good start -especially if it required some sort of declaration of acknowledgement.

    Part of the REPS* payments to farmers require that they fence off and protect archaeological monuments on their land. It has helped to protect a lot of monuments from being damaged inadvertently by contractors that are carrying out groundworks digging ditches through monuments or from cattle eroding banks.

    Most of the monuments covered by REPS are a lot more ephemeral than this Dolmen was, and yet most landowners know they are there. I find it very hard to believe that the landowner was unaware that this monument was on his land or that this was an 'accident'. In addition, monuments like this are frequently visited. It was located toward the centre of a large field and was probably levelled for no better reason than it was a minor irritation to drive around it when ploughing.

    Here's a link to some more images. The monument is in the townland of Brittas (arklow by.)
    http://megalithomania.com/show/site/117/brittas_portal_tomb.htm

    *Rural Environment Protection Scheme - grant scheme for farmer to protect natural and cultural heritage on their land


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 506 ✭✭✭Hotei


    So what happens now? Will there be an exploratory excavation by the NMS to assess the damage, and will there be an attempt to restore it? The landowner, I presume, will have to pay for such excavations and reparation?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭Arsemageddon


    Hotei wrote: »
    So what happens now? Will there be an exploratory excavation by the NMS to assess the damage, and will there be an attempt to restore it? The landowner, I presume, will have to pay for such excavations and reparation?

    There may well be an excavation at the site to assess the damage and to recover and record any archaeological material that is at immediate risk of being destroyed by being exposed to the elements. The NMS will probably contract a commercial archaeological consultant to do this work and the NMS will foot the bill.

    The landowner will presumably be prosecuted for breaches of the National Monuments Acts, a similar case occurred in Wicklow a few years back.
    http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/circuit-court/retired-garda-guilty-of-criminal-damage-to-prehistoric-stone-circle-1.2084791


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 509 ✭✭✭wayoutwest


    What sentence/fine did the retired garda get for looting that Bronze age burial mound ?


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,129 ✭✭✭Arsemageddon


    wayoutwest wrote: »
    What sentence/fine did the retired garda get for looting that Bronze age burial mound ?

    Sorry, I posted the wrong link earlier - he was fined €10k and got 18 months suspended.
    http://www.independent.ie/regionals/wicklowpeople/news/man-fined-10000-for-damage-to-monument-31019098.html

    In 2012 a landowner in Co. Kerry was fined €25,000 for levelling a monument on his land which he knew was there.
    http://www.museum.ie/Corporate-Media/Media-Information/Media-Releases-Archives/Media-Releases-2012/March-2012/Landowner-Prosecuted-for-Destruction-of-Ring-Fort
    In both the above cases the courts dealt with the landowners quite harshly because the guilty parties knew that the monuments well knew that the monuments on their land were protected. They just destroyed them anyway because that's the kind of thing that gobshytes do.

    There is a possibility that the Dolmen in Brittas was destroyed by accident, but we will have to wait until the court case to find out the full circumstances.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 5,223 Mod ✭✭✭✭slowburner


    Hotei wrote: »
    So what happens now? Will there be an exploratory excavation by the NMS to assess the damage, and will there be an attempt to restore it? The landowner, I presume, will have to pay for such excavations and reparation?
    We await the NMS archaeologist's report.

    I would just like to remind posters that there may be legal issues concerning this event, and that this is a public forum.

    What is said here could be interpreted as having a bearing or influence elsewhere.

    So, please think before you post.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 135 ✭✭mocmo


    It will be interesting to see what happens here, a landowner claiming they didn't know about the monument simply won't wash. If you are a landowner it is your responsibility to know about monuments on your land and uphold the law relating to them. The same way if you live in the city you should know that it is illegal to burn rubbish in your back yard, no government departments come and tell you this directly, it is your responsibility to be informed of the law.

    If this damage was done by a sub-contractor it's hard to know who will ultimately be held responsible, but the cases cited above suggest that somebody will pay.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,594 ✭✭✭cfuserkildare


    I may be wrong with this,

    But is not the person who hired the Contractor still the Responsible Party?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 135 ✭✭mocmo


    Yes you may well be right, but as Slowburner pointed out we may be venturing into dubious territory by discussing this on a public forum. As I said I think it will interesting to see how this plays out.


  • Moderators, Politics Moderators Posts: 41,647 Mod ✭✭✭✭Seth Brundle


    Apparently it'll be "grand" as "everything has been blown out of proportion” and “just a few stones were removed"...

    http://www.irishtimes.com/culture/heritage/landowner-denies-megalithic-dolmen-was-damaged-by-works-1.2611107


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,253 Mod ✭✭✭✭Wibbs


    That makes me bloody angry. You can be sure nada will happen to that guy. Ah sure just a few stones moved boss. FFS. :mad: The local council are as much use as tits on a bull with it. Only now they get up in arms about it. Why wasn't it cleaned up, overgrowth removed and fenced off. 100 quid in B&Q would get the materials.

    Rejoice in the awareness of feeling stupid, for that’s how you end up learning new things. If you’re not aware you’re stupid, you probably are.



  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 509 ✭✭✭wayoutwest


    Looking at our National Monuments Act, I see that the maximum penalty fo contravention is €10,000 000 - quite a decent decent amount that should hopefully (you would think) deter most potential offenders. The Act says that it is unlawfull to "excavate, dig , plough or otherwise disturb the ground within, around or in close proximity to it". This seems to be lacking in any real definition for a suitable exclusion zone where ploughing and the digging of ditches should really be prohibited.
    Is it the landowner, the council, or the man from the REPS who decides where this zone of non-disturbance should be ?!
    Looking at how other countries are dealing with the vandalism of their archaeology, I noticed that India (which amended its Mon Act in 2010) has implemented a two zone defined area around it's monuments - a 100 mtr (prohibited) zone and a 200 mtr (restricted) zone. The maximum penalty for contravention (in both zones) was raised from 3 months imprisonment/5000 rupees to 2 years/100,000 rupees. More interestingly, the law also makes central government responsible for implementing the Act effectively and prescribes 3 years imprisonment or fine or both if officials concerned fail to check on illegal activity !


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