Current market for Dublin buy-to-lets?

sapper

Hi - realise this prob belongs on the property market thread but does anyone out there know what the current market is like for selling very-rentable buy to let investment properties in Dublin city centre?

I would have thought that given what's happening with rents these days that it would be pretty easy to find buyers? Or is it sluggish like the rest of the mkt? Or is the market flooded with landlords selling up?

Thinking about getting rid of my own noose-around-my-neck for once and for all....

4ensic15

You have answered your own question. You want to sell despite record rent levels. Why would you be the sole exception? Difficulties obtaining bank finance, over regulation and the poor legal environment for landlords are driving people out and repelling newcomers and those expanding.

sapper

Was really looking for actual experiences from people actually buying or selling small 1/2 bed properties in Dublin city centre.....I (and you it seems) only have second hand info from the media and boards to go on and I'm wondering if in fact there are people buying up properties at that level

Villa05

sapper wrote:

Was really looking for actual experiences from people actually buying or selling small 1/2 bed properties in Dublin city centre.....I (and you it seems) only have second hand info from the media and boards to go on and I'm wondering if in fact there are people buying up properties at that level

The official property price index comes with a standard note of treating apartment prices with caution due to very low sales volumes.
This would indicate that apartments purchased with mortgages are very sluggish.
I suspect most sales are to cash buyers and bulk buys from large funds, not the ideal market for a sole seller

dori_dormer

Take a look at the property price register. See if anything has sold on your street / apartment block in the last year. Drop into local estate agents and ask if they've sold many of your property type recently / have many on the books, or any interested buyers. Decided if the going price is worth it to you.

I sold my apartment in a dublin commuter town 18 months ago. Wasn't in negative equity but I didnt make back what I paid either. I was glad to get rid of it and have a small lump sum too. One estate agent hadn't sold any apartments in years, the other had a list of investors /ftbs etc and he got about 6 viewings, and we went sale agreed in a week.

Every area is different so you'd need to do some leg work to see if it's worth selling

Paulownia

Everybody tells you that it's a buyers market but trying to buy is not easy, there is a price on a property but try buying and the vendor inevitably decides it must be worth more and puts the price up, the market is full of messers at the moment and auctioneers find it hard to make deals. A great deterrent to buy to rent investors especially if you have had a survey done.

The_Conductor

People who intend to use former BTLs as PPRs are almost exclusively the sole buyers in the market (in the Dublin area) at the moment. That said- properties are selling when they're appropriately priced- providing sellers are willing to exercise proper diligence on prospective purchasers (the number of sales falling through is phenomenal- primarily as a result of prospective purchasers with mortgage approval in principal- imagining this means they're home and dry and final approval is a mere formality). Sales taking over a year- are becoming more and more common- as are the same property rehitting the market 4-5-6 times........

Its not another BTL landlord (or prospective BTL landlord) who is likely to buy your property- its someone who intends to live in the property as their principal private residence- and as long as you are cognisant of this- and the new reality of trying to sell into that market- alongside the fact that it may take some time to finally sell the property- there is absolutely no reason you'll not sell it, and get a reasonable price too.

4ensic15

The_Conductor wrote: »

Its not another BTL landlord (or prospective BTL landlord) who is likely to buy your property- its someone who intends to live in the property as their principal private residence- and as long as you are cognisant of this- and the new reality of trying to sell into that market- alongside the fact that it may take some time to finally sell the property- there is absolutely no reason you'll not sell it, and get a reasonable price too.

Some BTLS are not suitable as PPRs such as converted older houses with neither gardens nor off street parking, which are too big as single residences or are in commercial districts with shops all around.

The_Conductor

4ensic15 wrote: »

Some BTLS are not suitable as PPRs such as converted older houses with neither gardens nor off street parking, which are too big as single residences or are in commercial districts with shops all around.

I hear what you're saying- however- the situation is such that there are very few options available for buyers on the market- you'd be surprised at what some people are happy to consider as their PPR>..........

gaius c

No harm testing the market if you want to get rid of them. If the interest is too low, you can always take them back of the market.

newacc2015

4ensic15 wrote: »

Some BTLS are not suitable as PPRs such as converted older houses with neither gardens nor off street parking, which are too big as single residences or are in commercial districts with shops all around.

Gardens are not hugely important for a lot people. Generally even the most extended house will have a small court yard in Dublin City. That is all a lot of people want. I cant remember the last time I used my garden other than to cut the grass.

Why would you want off street parking living in a city that is so car unfriendly at the moment? I live in Dublin and I know tons of people I know who drive, but will never drive into Dublin City as the congestion/parking is unbearable. Plus owning a car when you can walk/cycle everywhere is a kinda a waste of money.

Living in a commercial district is the norm in cities like Berlin or NYC. Most new developments in NYC are in former warehouse districts eg meat packing district, Bushwich. If anything living these businesses is good, as the weekends are often super quiet

sapper

Actually what got me thinking originally was seeing these properties seemingly getting a lot of interest. Harty Place in Dublin 8 - one for sale now asking price increased from 165k to 180k, other one sold for 227k vs asking of 195k, looks like another one that was up for 100k sold for 130k in 2015 (links below)

I was thinking that given the recent headlines re the popularity of airbnb lets, any property that could be attractive as a holiday let was getting a lot of attention from people looking to get property to rent out week to week? But perhaps it is just BTL property that is attractive as a PPR.... I bought something similar in the boom (which I still own and rent) and they are lovely to live in

The boom seems to be back a bit on this street anyway...


http://www.daftdrop.com/houses/72-harty-place-clanbrassil-street-dublin-8-392747

http://www.daftdrop.com/houses/42-harty-place-dublin-8-353595

https://www.propertypriceregister.ie/website/npsra/PPR/npsra-ppr.nsf/eStampUNID/UNID-D87F7377AE73050A80257F300037B6ED?OpenDocument

The_Conductor

Sapper- its a complete lack of availability- forcing people to make choices they wouldn't otherwise make- that is driving the market. We are at our lowest levels of property available, nationally, in 9 years- and in a Dublin context- in 16 years. There is very very limited stock out there- this is what is driving demand.

sapper

For example this one looks booked out for months at EUR100 a night

https://www.airbnb.co.uk/rooms/7071476?guests=2&s=RhY0qMXs

Loads of hassle sure but its worth someones time at EUR3k a month. Would make a good business maybe if you had 4 or 5 of these on the go

PhoenixParker

One observation about the apartment market in Dublin - many of the properties up for sale are bank sales.
These are often dragged out for long periods to get the bank to agree to the sale. I've known a few people and read more stories here about bank sales taking 6 - 12 months to close. The fact that you're not a bank sale and can proceed more quickly will stand in your favour when you're selling.

handlemaster

sapper wrote: »

Actually what got me thinking originally was seeing these properties seemingly getting a lot of interest. Harty Place in Dublin 8 - one for sale now asking price increased from 165k to 180k, other one sold for 227k vs asking of 195k, looks like another one that was up for 100k sold for 130k in 2015 (links below)

I was thinking that given the recent headlines re the popularity of airbnb lets, any property that could be attractive as a holiday let was getting a lot of attention from people looking to get property to rent out week to week? But perhaps it is just BTL property that is attractive as a PPR.... I bought something similar in the boom (which I still own and rent) and they are lovely to live in

The boom seems to be back a bit on this street anyway...


http://www.daftdrop.com/houses/72-harty-place-clanbrassil-street-dublin-8-392747

http://www.daftdrop.com/houses/42-harty-place-dublin-8-353595

https://www.propertypriceregister.ie/website/npsra/PPR/npsra-ppr.nsf/eStampUNID/UNID-D87F7377AE73050A80257F300037B6ED?OpenDocument

One or two swallows dont make a summer

Claw Hammer

newacc2015 wrote: »

Gardens are not hugely important for a lot people. Generally even the most extended house will have a small court yard in Dublin City. That is all a lot of people want. I cant remember the last time I used my garden other than to cut the grass.

Why would you want off street parking living in a city that is so car unfriendly at the moment? I live in Dublin and I know tons of people I know who drive, but will never drive into Dublin City as the congestion/parking is unbearable. Plus owning a car when you can walk/cycle everywhere is a kinda a waste of money.

Living in a commercial district is the norm in cities like Berlin or NYC. Most new developments in NYC are in former warehouse districts eg meat packing district, Bushwich. If anything living these businesses is good, as the weekends are often super quiet

That might be the case with smaller apartments or artisan houses. May investment properties are big multi-unit old houses. How many people want to pay purchase and renovation costs and end up with no parking, noisy shops next door and no garden?

bleary

My experience from looking is that there are no investors in the market, however the supply is so limited that as already mentioned people are jumping on places and bidding them above asking prices.

I think the rental market is having an effect in that the prices are being justified by a lot of people in terms of x increase in bidding is only 50 euro extra a month whereas my rent has just increased by 200 euro a month.

newacc2015

Claw Hammer wrote: »

That might be the case with smaller apartments or artisan houses. May investment properties are big multi-unit old houses. How many people want to pay purchase and renovation costs and end up with no parking, noisy shops next door and no garden?

I know a sizeable amount of former investment properties are 3/4 storey townhouses that can be up 3,000 sq feet. A fair amount of buyers would prefer a pre 63 that looks like something from 1963 and is priced accordingly. Rather than buying a "walk in condition", over priced house that was renovated in 2007. No everyone wants a walk in over priced home. On my street 3 of the houses have been gutted in the last year, which have each taken 2 builder skips and close to 6 months of work. Some people want to do their home from scratch. Not everyone wants a 80 foot garden. Actually period houses have a fantastic garden, even if they have a mews.

Do you live in Dublin City? If you lived in Drumcondra or Phisboro, why would you want to own a car? You are 20 mins walk to the city and if you were to drive it would probably take the same time. Plus finding parking etc. Not everyone in the city wants to drive. Look at number of cars on the NCR.

PhoenixParker

newacc2015 wrote: »

Do you live in Dublin City? If you lived in Drumcondra or Phisboro, why would you want to own a car? You are 20 mins walk to the city and if you were to drive it would probably take the same time. Plus finding parking etc. Not everyone in the city wants to drive. Look at number of cars on the NCR.

I've lived closer to the city then either Drumcondra or Phibsboro. Still wanted a car and hence a parking space everywhere I rented. There are times you just want a car. Stuff like going hill walking, a weekend break in a hotel or just to do a big shop. That's not to mention that many prospective buyers will have family members who don't live close to public transport and who they may occasionally want to visit. It's about choice and independence. Most people in a position to buy a property to live in themselves want to retain the option of a parking space.

Even a buy to let investor knows that an apartment will be easier to rent and will attract higher quality tenants if it has a parking space available.

The OPs apartment will be much easier to sell if it has a parking space.

Every feature that a property has that other properties may not can add to its saleability. In a tight market it might not add to its price, but given a choice between two identically priced properties, buyers will opt for the one with the parking space, or the better aspect, or the larger balcony, or the terrace.

newacc2015

PhoenixParker wrote: »

Most people in a position to buy a property to live in themselves want to retain the option of a parking space.

Even a buy to let investor knows that an apartment will be easier to rent and will attract higher quality tenants if it has a parking space available.

The OPs apartment will be much easier to sell if it has a parking space.

Every feature that a property has that other properties may not can add to its saleability. In a tight market it might not add to its price, but given a choice between two identically priced properties, buyers will opt for the one with the parking space, or the better aspect, or the larger balcony, or the terrace.

No off street parking doesnt stop people paying close to €900k for properties in Iona in Glasnevin. If the location is right and the house is right. Parking isnt a deal breaker. It might be for you. But for a sizeable amount of people it doesnt matter.

How many people renting in Dublin City will want to pay €100 extra per month for a car space off their landlord? (their landlord can rent that to someone in the local offices for that easily, so it isnt going to give it to someone for free). Then spend another close to €4k per year in fuel, tax, insurance, depreciation etc for the odd hotel break or hill walking etc? I imagine the numbers are very limited. Hence the reason hardly any apartment complexes in the city had car parking for 1 bedroom apartments.

I know more twenty somethings from Dublin without a car, than with a car. Car ownership among young people is a luxury in Dublin City and not the norm.

yqtwqxqm

Looks like the BTL market is better than I thought.
I moved out of my apartment a few weeks ago.
Was thinking about buying it as a BTL as the LL was selling it so I followed it since.
It went up for about €15k above all the other recent apartments in the PPR in the same complex that I could find so i thought i might bid lower than that.
Just heard today it went sale agreed for €30k more than asking. Thats €45k more than the PPR has for the very same apartments in the last few months.
Falling market my ass.