Efficiency punished?

jack77

I was watching ear to the ground the other day and they were talking about efficiency of farms meal to kg ratio etc and environmental impact of farming & eco eye where they were on about CO2 emissions being very high from farming ( cattle mainly) need to change practices and so on.
When the thought entered my head is farming the only industry where the most efficient conversion of getting an animal to a certain weight at a certain age x use of raw materials ( feed stuffs) is punished by our marketplace e.g the meat factories?
sometimes the preaching from the likes of eco eye can be hard to listen to when farmers trying to be efficient just get ripped off and its only factories that see the real benefits of this work as they can monopolize beef prices with no one to regulate them.
Imagine what farmers could do for CO2 emissions and the environment if they actually were rewarded through proper prices?

djmc

I often wonder if all this expansion and efficiency is just a race to the bottom.
A lot of hill and hnv farmers are already priced out of the market
The supermarkets and factory's aren't going to change unless they are forced to.

Bass Reeves

I definitely think that not so much efficiency but expansion for expansion sake is the enemy of farming. If you look at it who makes money from expansion, machinery makers, Millers, fertlizer makers and those who process and sell the end product. We are our own enemy. We are chasing greater production at a lower margin. We enrich everybody else and end up with a much heavier workload with a lower income.

Muckit

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I definitely think that not so much efficiency but expansion for expansion sake is the enemy of farming. If you look at it who makes money from expansion, machinery makers, Millers, fertlizer makers and those who process and sell the end product. We are our own enemy. We are chasing greater production at a lower margin. We enrich everybody else and end up with a much heavier workload with a lower income.

... all the while holding down a fulltime job!!

Muckit

As regards CO2, l feel our days of hidding our heads in the sand are numbered. These makey uppey figures for CO2 emissions to hide the real picture is fooling no-one.

Certain elements of farming at an intensive scale do not stack up. Things are going to have to change.

_Brian

Farmers producing ever increasing volumes for less profit per unit is leading the industry in a bad direction. Farmers gain nothing and the processors her more and more of an even cheaper raw material to get rich on.

Running faster to stand still isn't progress.

20silkcut

The (by far) wealthiest farmer in our area milks 80 cows on 400 acres.
Spreads very little fertiliser. His grass is patchy and always looks hungry. Probably hasn't great yield per cow or minerals in the grass or whatever but does it matter a damn that's only handing money to merchants chasing those magic numbers and having nice lush green grass.
He has to get rid of money every year to reduce his tax bill.

Lashing out fertiliser is one of the great evils in modern farming and is a form of madness in the current low price climate.
But try telling farmers to reduce their stocking rate.
I reckon you should only keep enough animals to cover your land in slurry.

Timmaay

20silkcut wrote: »

The (by far) wealthiest farmer in our area milks 80 cows on 400 acres.
Spreads very little fertiliser. His grass is patchy and always looks hungry. Probably hasn't great yield per cow or minerals in the grass or whatever but does it matter a damn that's only handing money to merchants chasing those magic numbers and having nice lush green grass.
He has to get rid of money every year to reduce his tax bill.

Lashing out fertiliser is one of the great evils in modern farming and is a form of madness in the current low price climate.
But try telling farmers to reduce their stocking rate.
I reckon you should only keep enough animals to cover your land in slurry.

That sounds great, I'll just go out and buy another 300acres . Will it scale down for me, if I keep just 20 cows???

patsy_mccabe

Now that's sarcasm !!!!!!

20silkcut

Timmaay wrote: »

That sounds great, I'll just go out and buy another 300acres . Will it scale down for me, if I keep just 20 cows???

My grandfather raised 5 children and put 3 of them through 3rd level education. milking 14 cows and was by all accounts debt free.

My father went bust with 60 cows.

Go figure.

Muckit

Timmaay wrote: »

That sounds great, I'll just go out and buy another 300acres . Will it scale down for me, if I keep just 20 cows???

Would u not b better off with 20 cows this year and a fulltime off farm job?

Bass Reeves

Muckit wrote: »

... all the while holding down a fulltime job!!

What is the difference between holding down a fulltime job and farming in the morning/evening and spending the day in the mart or contracting and doing your farming morning and evening.. We are looking too much at milk. Look at beef the average large finisher is now finishing double the cattle compared 10-15 years ago for less than half the margin. Even taking SFP into account compared to direct payments he is running to stand still after inflation. Read the journal 5-7 years ago they spoke about 100/head margin now it is 40-70 they speak about.

But go on.. go on.. go on.. buy that diet feeder or ZG and load on the straights and maize.

Capercaillie

djmc wrote: »

I often wonder if all this expansion and efficiency is just a race to the bottom.
A lot of hill and hnv farmers are already priced out of the market
The supermarkets and factory's aren't going to change unless they are forced to.

Fifty years ago everybody had a few pigs. Now the number of pig farmers (relative to sheep/beef/dairy) is tiny. They are as intensive as you get yet most are barely breaking even. Huge overheads yet pork is cheaper than beef. The same for poultry industry. The dairy industry is on a fast track to a system like pork/poultry: Intensive/polluting/poor animal welfare/vast habitat destruction is the future.

Muckit

20silkcut wrote: »

My grandfather raised 5 children and put 3 of them through 3rd level education. milking 14 cows and was by all accounts debt free.

My father went bust with 60 cows.

Go figure.

Same as that. He and his family would have been considered v comfortable. It wouldn't keep a child in pocket money now.

I don't know what the answer is, but it's not continued expansion. Those that are expanding what do u see your kids having to do to stay at it? Is the answer get bigger and bigger and mechanise mechanise..... or more labour?? Will the costs stack up?

In what other industry do you see people expanding when future profit projections look to be significantly decreasing?

Timmaay

Muckit wrote: »

Would u not b better off with 20 cows this year and a fulltime off farm job?

If I was going that far I'd flog the whole lot and lease long term ha. Absolutely not refuting the fact that less can be more, my best option at the second looks like like culling heavy in the autumn here and only carry over 80/85cows over the winter (got 105 at the minute including culls), and save myself the hassle of investing in more slurry storage this year, alongside less work, less silage etc needed over the winter.

Actually quick question where will that leave me from a tax point of view?

blue5000

So which of us on here is going to put 10% less cows in calf this year?
Or leave all the headlands idle in the tillage fields?
How many of us will go back to buying in 20 fresian bull calves instead of 80?
Who is not going to try grab the bit of land that comes up for rent or sale beside us?
If we don't all do it the lads that stay busting bigger and bigger will benefit the most from any price gain that might come out of the rest of us stepping back. The only reason sheep prices are good is because there are a lot less ewes in the country. We all complain about factories/supermarkets/co-ops but yet none of us want to cut back production. We have been at this craic now since we joined the EU in 1972, cheap food benefits everyone else except the farmer.

Username John

20silkcut wrote: »

The (by far) wealthiest farmer in our area milks 80 cows on 400 acres.
Spreads very little fertiliser. His grass is patchy and always looks hungry. Probably hasn't great yield per cow or minerals in the grass or whatever but does it matter a damn that's only handing money to merchants chasing those magic numbers and having nice lush green grass.
He has to get rid of money every year to reduce his tax bill.

Lashing out fertiliser is one of the great evils in modern farming and is a form of madness in the current low price climate.
But try telling farmers to reduce their stocking rate.
I reckon you should only keep enough animals to cover your land in slurry.

I get your point that intensve isn't the answer. But surely extensive to that level isn't the answer either...
Would that lad be better off letting half the place and managing the other half with the 80cows more efficiently... And by efficient - I mean getting the ground in order, growing as much grass as he can using slurry correctly as you say.
Reduce outputs as much as possible, but also get the most from the ground you have...
It's a fine balance - but you can't starve a profit out of animals / ground either...

Muckit

Capercaillie wrote: »

Fifty years ago everybody had a few pigs. Now the number of pig farmers (relative to sheep/beef/dairy) is tiny. They are as intensive as you get yet most are barely breaking even. Huge overheads yet pork is cheaper than beef. The same for poultry industry. The dairy industry is on a fast track to a system like pork/poultry: Intensive/polluting/poor animal welfare/vast habitat destruction is the future.

.... and the irony of it all, the end consumer still can't buy a decent rasher or sausage!!

Username John

Muckit wrote: »

Would u not b better off with 20 cows this year and a fulltime off farm job?

Would you not be better off every year with the farm let and a full time off farm job?

From a pure financial perspective - unless you walk into a fully setup farm, good facilities, etc - then I can't see how letting and working wouldn't be a better option...

Yet - here we all are... As Blue said, all planning to either do the same thing or more...

freedominacup

Bass Reeves wrote: »

What is the difference between holding down a fulltime job and farming in the morning/evening and spending the day in the mart or contracting and doing your farming morning and evening.. We are looking too much at milk. Look at beef the average large finisher is now finishing double the cattle compared 10-15 years ago for less than half the margin. Even taking SFP into account compared to direct payments he is running to stand still after inflation. Read the journal 5-7 years ago they spoke about 100/head margin now it is 40-70 they speak about.

But go on.. go on.. go on.. buy that diet feeder or ZG and load on the straights and maize.

So what size is the average large finisher now?

freedominacup

Username John wrote: »

Would you not be better off every year with the farm let and a full time off farm job?

From a pure financial perspective - unless you walk into a fully setup farm, good facilities, etc - then I can't see how letting and working wouldn't be a better option...

Yet - here we all are... As Blue said, all planning to either do the same thing or more...

This is as good a year as any in the past five to get bang for your buck buying dairy stock. We picked up enough to increase herd by 10% yesterday. It must be grand to be in a position where you'd be better off renting your land out. If I did that I'd have to pay a good chunk of the wages on top of the rent to cover the overhead. More cows, more litres reduces my cost/l. Those cows I bought yesterday should cut my biggest cost/l by 10%, happy days.

farawaygrass

Username John wrote: »

Would you not be better off every year with the farm let and a full time off farm job?

From a pure financial perspective - unless you walk into a fully setup farm, good facilities, etc - then I can't see how letting and working wouldn't be a better option...

Yet - here we all are... As Blue said, all planning to either do the same thing or more...

It's in everyone's nature to keep doing 'better'. It's hard to stay still. I'm trying to bulid up facility's, fence, tidy up the yard so at the moment that's taking everything, a black hole that's swallowing any cash that sits around for any bit of time. Hopefully when I have them things done it will be a lifetime job, for me anyhow, and I can regain more from the farm. I find if I had everything set up I could make a living farming full time. But I need a job to get the loans etc to upgrade. God as o writing this its sound absolutely crazy what I'm at! A neighbour told me when he started out with sheep, one year he had a ewe in the back hall of the house with lambs because he was so tight for space (he had one shed, has a lot now). Now he has all the sheds and at 70 he's too buggered to work!
Life is short.

Username John

freedominacup wrote: »

This is as good a year as any in the past five to get bang for your buck buying dairy stock. We picked up enough to increase herd by 10% yesterday. It must be grand to be in a position where you'd be better off renting your land out. If I did that I'd have to pay a good chunk of the wages on top of the rent to cover the overhead. More cows, more litres reduces my cost/l. Those cows I bought yesterday should cut my biggest cost/l by 10%, happy days.

I suppose the reality is the return / acre freedom. Running a good dairy setup provides a good return.
But with dry stock - not great returns, so the rental money wouldn't be far off what you'd make farming... Not to mention the reduced risk, less workload, etc...

So the cows you bought yesterday - will cut costs by 10% - but what profit will they add? Or are you expanding to cut costs and increase efficiency to take the same overall profit?

Happy to be wrong here freedom... I'll be honest and say my view of farming would be very narrow...

Username John

farawaygrass wrote: »

It's in everyone's nature to keep doing 'better'. It's hard to stay still. I'm trying to bulid up facility's, fence, tidy up the yard so at the moment that's taking everything, a black hole that's swallowing any cash that sits around for any bit of time. Hopefully when I have them things done it will be a lifetime job, for me anyhow, and I can regain more from the farm. I find if I had everything set up I could make a living farming full time. But I need a job to get the loans etc to upgrade. God as o writing this its sound absolutely crazy what I'm at! A neighbour told me when he started out with sheep, one year he had a ewe in the back hall of the house with lambs because he was so tight for space (he had one shed, has a lot now). Now he has all the sheds and at 70 he's too buggered to work!
Life is short.

Oh - I know faraway - I am doing the same myself... Trying to improve things every year...

But my farm isn't really a farm it's more a hobby... At least that's how I justify it to myself...

freedominacup

Username John wrote: »

I suppose the reality is the return / acre freedom. Running a good dairy setup provides a good return.
But with dry stock - not great returns, so the rental money wouldn't be far off what you'd make farming... Not to mention the reduced risk, less workload, etc...

So the cows you bought yesterday - will cut costs by 10% - but what profit will they add? Or are you expanding to cut costs and increase efficiency to take the same overall profit?

Happy to be wrong here freedom... I'll be honest and say my view of farming would be very narrow...

They won't cut all costs by 10% just the major fixed ones. So there should be a better margin across all litres. More feed and contractor. No more labour or overhead. Should lead to a small increase in overall profit and leave us ready to capitalise on the upswing.

20silkcut

If farmers were Luas drivers they'd be working a 70 hour week and bringing a few pound with them every day to give to the company so they could keep driving their trams as efficiently as possible adding a few carriages to the tram every so often to expand.

It is a tragedy that farmers can't take industrial action. It is a tragedy that there can't be a controlled co ordinated reduction in supply of farming produce to processors and supermarkets when prices are low. Farmers Plough there own furrow keeping their head down waiting and putting up with all types of ****e in the hope that they will be the last man standing and they will get their neighbours farm beside them.

blue5000

freedominacup wrote: »

This is as good a year as any in the past five to get bang for your buck buying dairy stock. We picked up enough to increase herd by 10% yesterday. It must be grand to be in a position where you'd be better off renting your land out. If I did that I'd have to pay a good chunk of the wages on top of the rent to cover the overhead. More cows, more litres reduces my cost/l. Those cows I bought yesterday should cut my biggest cost/l by 10%, happy days.

And if milk price drops by another 10%??

rangler1

Username John wrote: »

Oh - I know faraway - I am doing the same myself... Trying to improve things every year...

But my farm isn't really a farm it's more a hobby... At least that's how I justify it to myself...

Most farms are a hobby, often think it's fortunate that the av age of farmers is so high.......will farming be sustainable for another ten year, if not it won't be a tragedy because most of the present farmers will be f..ked anyway

farmerjj

rangler1 wrote: »

Most farms are a hobby, often think it's fortunate that the av age of farmers is so high.......will farming be sustainable for another ten year, if not it won't be a tragedy because most of the present farmers will be f..ked anyway

Don't know where your based, but there are very few hobby farmers around us,and the average age for farmers on our road would be in there early fifties(would be a lot less only for one fella in his 80,s) it's all well and good expanding but if your not efficient now then your hardly going to be efficient with more cows/sheep, get efficient and them consider expanding not the other way round

Muckit

Username John wrote: »

Would you not be better off every year with the farm let and a full time off farm job?

From a pure financial perspective - unless you walk into a fully setup farm, good facilities, etc - then I can't see how letting and working wouldn't be a better option...

Yet - here we all are... As Blue said, all planning to either do the same thing or more...

I have a fulltime job and the farm like you is a hobby, a hobby that pays for itself including any bit of investment. I'm working it as tax efficiently as possible. It's 'physical work therapy.' It's well documented that working with nature is good for the mental health, so long as you haven't farm financial issues to be worrying about, which l don't. I'm glad the farm isn't any bigger than it is as l'd still have to work fulltime and have the added drudgery. Then l might have to consider leasing.

Muckit

blue5000 wrote: »

If we don't all do it the lads that stay busting bigger and bigger will benefit the most from any price gain that might come out of the rest of us stepping back.

.... hmmm.... sounds suspiciously like what lads were saying about houses before the recession!!!!

The cute lads were those that held back, waited for the bang, then bought all round them.... for half nothing!

blue5000

freedominacup wrote: »

So what size is the average large finisher now?

About 22 stone weight?:P

rangler1

farmerjj wrote: »

Don't know where your based, but there are very few hobby farmers around us,and the average age for farmers on our road would be in there early fifties(would be a lot less only for one fella in his 80,s) it's all well and good expanding but if your not efficient now then your hardly going to be efficient with more cows/sheep, get efficient and them consider expanding not the other way round

Well the average age for the country is near 60, sounds like you're in a dairy area, also sounds like you still have the glow of the quota years.
Would love to know where your optimism for the future of farming is based

Timmaay

blue5000 wrote: »

And if milk price drops by another 10%??

I can see exactly where freedom is coming from, and I'd be perfectly open to doing similar if the opportunity arose, however as things stand here, I don't have the winter accommodation, the farm isn't setup to support a SR comfortably over 3cows/HA, and finally and most importantly I don't think we have seen the worst of it yet, the price of milk probably hasn't bottomed out, dairyfarmers are going to be squeezed even more, there are too many replacement heifers around as is. If I was in a position to buy in I'd be happy enough sitting on the fence for another year. However you do get the odd bargain that you just can't leave behind I suppose in fairness free ha?

patsy_mccabe

What has being agreed for support of dairy farmers on mainland Euroe? A lot will depend on that?

freedominacup

blue5000 wrote: »

And if milk price drops by another 10%??

Big bites and small sups then. If that happens it happens. The best cure for low prices is low prices.

freedominacup

Timmaay wrote: »

I can see exactly where freedom is coming from, and I'd be perfectly open to doing similar if the opportunity arose, however as things stand here, I don't have the winter accommodation, the farm isn't setup to support a SR comfortably over 3cows/HA, and finally and most importantly I don't think we have seen the worst of it yet, the price of milk probably hasn't bottomed out, dairyfarmers are going to be squeezed even more, there are too many replacement heifers around as is. If I was in a position to buy in I'd be happy enough sitting on the fence for another year. However you do get the odd bargain that you just can't leave behind I suppose in fairness free ha?

It was hardly worth our while going to see these girls yesterday. Half our herd came out of this farm. In fact a good few of the ones we bought yesterday filled in the gaps in the tags amongst the heifer calves we bought there two years ago. We knew exactly what we were getting before we got there. The deal could easily have been done over the phone. Didn't sow in too hard on the price as they were fair when the shoe was on the other foot a couple of years ago.