The Volunteers/other groupings pr 1916

bobbyss

Have always been confused by the events leading up to 1916 and the groupings that existed then. Can anyone bring clarity?

The Police:
The police at the time, prior to 1916, were the RIC? These would be the forerunners to the present Gardai? How many RIC were there and who would have been members? Regular Irish people, just like the present Gardai? Would there have been a mix of religions in its make up? Or would your religion or political viewpoint have been unimportant?

The army:
What about the army at that point? Presumably being British we would have had the British Army as our legitimate protectors (in the same role as the present Irish Army?) Again, how many army members were there in Ireland at the time and who would have been in its ranks? Irish people wanting a regular wage? Just like today? Or British people from the rest of the UK who were sent over on shifts? Or both?

The Volunteers:
I have seen many photos of the Volunteers some in uniform some not. These were started in response to the formation of the Ulster Volunteers. There are reports of the Volunteers drilling/marching with/without guns and so on. Now if today a group of people started doing that, and in the context of the huge numbers that 'enlisted' into the Volunteers at that time, they would immediately be banned/proscribed/arrested. They would be seen as subversives and a threat to the security of the state. And rightly so.

Why were the Volunteers, and indeed the Ulster Volunteers also, allowed to march and develop as they did? A state can only have one legitimate army to defend itself not a rival group who do not take orders from the state. So, why didn't the British Government act on them immediately? Did they not see them as subversive? Did the British Government tolerate a groups of people marching and drilling developing?
What did the government think the Volunteers were up to?

I have seen photos of the Volunteers some in uniform and some wearing flat caps suggesting they were a real bunch of amateurs. Some very young indeed. How well trained were they? Who would have trained them? Where did they get money for uniforms?

Pearse is referred to as Commandant Pearse. Pearse was a linguist and a member of the Bar. So where did he get this title from and all his military nous if indeed he had any. (Was Connolly called General Connolly?) And the others as well had titles I think. If the Volunteers were started in 1913 (?) how can you become a Commandant/General etc in such a short space of time?
I would have thought you would have had to prove yourself over a period of time.

Del.Monte

You're asking far too many questions for detailed replies, and judging from your other posts stating that you don't even know where some of the key locations were, are in need of a good book rather than answers here.

bobbyss

Del.Monte wrote: »

You're asking far too many questions for detailed replies, and judging from your other posts stating that you don't even know where some of the key locations were, are in need of a good book rather than answers here.

I have that book. I know my questions are detailed and a little off putting but I don't expect to have them all addressed.

(By the way, I have never seen the College of Surgeons building (to my knowledge) but I believe it is near Stephen's Green, Bolands Mill never seen and the Mendacity (?) Building ditto. Just because I have never seen them does not mean one book will answer everything)

Maybe someone will take one issue and deal with it.
If not, no problem. Thanks.

Del.Monte

Royal College of Surgeons

https://www.google.ie/maps/place/RCSI+%28Royal+College+of+Surgeons+in+Ireland%29/@53.338985,-6.261986,15z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0xd480ab326993b5ef

Still pock marked by bullet holes if memory serves me.

bobbyss

Del.Monte wrote: »

Royal College of Surgeons

https://www.google.ie/maps/place/RCSI+%28Royal+College+of+Surgeons+in+Ireland%29/@53.338985,-6.261986,15z/data=!4m2!3m1!1s0x0:0xd480ab326993b5ef

Still pock marked by bullet holes if memory serves me.

Was there anything particularly strategic about it? Anytime I pass by the Four Courts I look for bullet holes there too. I remember as a child my parents saying to watch out for that and it made such an impression on me. It makes it so much more alive if spotted. It is so touching to see stuff like Connolly's shirt, pens, notebooks and so on (as in Collins' Barracks) stuff actually used by the actors themselves.

I find the more I read and muse over events, the more questions come to my mind and in many ways it seems the less I know!

jonniebgood1

ref. Police in 1916 the ric was made up of local members of the community mainly. There was a mix of religions as per general society. The force in the countryside had local members with local knowledge. Dublin had a seperate metropolitan police service much like some of the uk current setup.
The British army had through the 19th century up to and including the boer war, a disproportionately high irish membership in relation to population levels. This was due to levels of poverty and particularly after the famine the irish wish not to further sub divide landholdings. Due to Redmonds decision to support the British and french in wwi there would have been a large contingent of irish nationalists in the British army in 1916.

Griffin47

A lot to consider in the original post, but very interesting questions. The Mendicity Institution (I think I have that right) was on Usher's Island, opposite the Four Courts. When Sean Heuston and his men occupied it, the inmates were basically slung out on their ear. Right next door to it is the Georgian house which featured in the John Huston film of Joyce's story "The Dead" from his collection Dubliners. Interesting coincidence of the names John Huston and Sean Heuston, I think. The Four Courts were, of course, badly damaged by fire in the Civil War later on. Sadly, as a result of this, priceless documents and records dating back many centuries were lost, which can make genealogical work in Ireland so difficult. One has to rely on church registers, which are not always made available.

As for the Royal College of Surgeons, to give it the dignity of its full title, which it bears to this day, it was in a strategic position to fire on the Shelbourne Hotel. This was held by the British Army, and had a machine gun on the roof.

Patrick Henry Pearse was self-styled. Any military ranks he held, he awarded himself, somewhat like Idi Amin later on. He probably had no military experience. It's believed that he didn't fire a single shot during his time in the GPO, but just supervised everybody else. He was, after all, a poet and a schoolmaster. And a barrister; but, like so many Irish barristers (including Bram Stoker and Sheridan le Fanu) and a female cousin of mine in Dublin, he never practised Law. His poetry is interesting. Some is in Erse, which is inaccessible to me, but some is in English. I particularly suggest you read "Little Lad of the Tricks," if you're unfamiliar with it. It may give you a different impression of Commandant-General Pearse.

There is a web site devoted to the Royal Irish Constabulary, which may have statistics. There was also the Dublin City police force in 1916. These were unarmed, but that didn't stop a number of them from being murdered in cold blood by the freedom fighters who are being commemorated this weekend.

bobbyss

Griffin47 wrote: »

A lot to consider in the original post, but very interesting questions. The Mendicity Institution (I think I have that right) was on Usher's Island, opposite the Four Courts. When Sean Heuston and his men occupied it, the inmates were basically slung out on their ear. Right next door to it is the Georgian house which featured in the John Huston film of Joyce's story "The Dead" from his collection Dubliners. Interesting coincidence of the names John Huston and Sean Heuston, I think. The Four Courts were, of course, badly damaged by fire in the Civil War later on. Sadly, as a result of this, priceless documents and records dating back many centuries were lost, which can make genealogical work in Ireland so difficult. One has to rely on church registers, which are not always made available.

As for the Royal College of Surgeons, to give it the dignity of its full title, which it bears to this day, it was in a strategic position to fire on the Shelbourne Hotel. This was held by the British Army, and had a machine gun on the roof.

Patrick Henry Pearse was self-styled. Any military ranks he held, he awarded himself, somewhat like Idi Amin later on. He probably had no military experience. It's believed that he didn't fire a single shot during his time in the GPO, but just supervised everybody else. He was, after all, a poet and a schoolmaster. And a barrister; but, like so many Irish barristers (including Bram Stoker and Sheridan le Fanu) and a female cousin of mine in Dublin, he never practised Law. His poetry is interesting. Some is in Erse, which is inaccessible to me, but some is in English. I particularly suggest you read "Little Lad of the Tricks," if you're unfamiliar with it. It may give you a different impression of Commandant-General Pearse.

There is a web site devoted to the Royal Irish Constabulary, which may have statistics. There was also the Dublin City police force in 1916. These were unarmed, but that didn't stop a number of them from being murdered in cold blood by the freedom fighters who are being commemorated this weekend.

Thanks for that.
Erse? What's that?
I didn't know that was the location of the the Mendicity Institution. I know Usher's Island well and also know well the Joyce connection. What was that Institution anyway?
Self awarded titles? Then all the other titles were self awarded also I would imagine. Why Commandant? Why not the more grandiose 'General' while he was at it. And the British I think referred to him as a Commandant. I don't think any Sinn Fein leaders of the present day were ever called Commandant So and So by the British Government.

I don't know if you have been watching Insurection on the telly recently but in one of the last episodes, when they are in Moore Street, I got the impression that Pearse relied on others for military advice, him just being a poet. An inkling he was out of his depth.

I am still pondering why the British tolerated the growth of an illegal army in Ireland.

Griffin47

Erse is an alternative name for the Irish language. Often used with a certain irony, like the use of Eire in Pathetic News on Brendan Balfe's excellent Saturday afternoon radio programme a few years back. As far as I remember, the Mendicity Institution was a sort of hostel for men who would otherwise have had nowhere to live.

My father was ten years of age at the time of the Rising, and sometimes spoke of it. His family were loyal to the Crown, and his brother Tom, ten years older, was serving in France at the time. It seems that there were various paramilitary groups in existence who used to march around the city, in or out of uniform, but usually armed. Why the resident British troops tolerated them I have no idea. Possibly they didn't take them seriously. The population at large certainly didn't.

Dublin in 1916 had some of the worst slums in Europe, and the most appalling poverty. For most people, getting by from one week to another was their overriding consideration, and pawn shops were resorted to on a regular basis. These apparently took on extra staff on a Saturday night to cope with the demand, and there were fleas everywhere from the clothes people pawned. It's hard for us now to imagine how people lived then, but politics were far from most people's minds. It was only a comparatively prosperous and educated middle-class elite, like the leaders of the Rising, who had the time, leisure and money to devote themselves to rebellion.

riffmongous

bobbyss wrote: »

I am still pondering why the British tolerated the growth of an illegal army in Ireland.

You know the UDA was only designated as a terrorist organisation by the British in 1992.

The UVF were formed before any of the nationalist groups, 100,000 strong, with the full support of the Tory party and the military. Of course having all these large militias turned out to be a good thing when they were needed for world war 1. There was also a tradition of volunteer militias in parts of Ireland dating back to the period just before 1798, perhaps the laws were never changed and these groups were not technically illegal. The importation of arms into Ireland was only banned just after the founding of the Irish Volunteers.

riffmongous

And as regards the police at the time, it's worth bearing in mind that only a few years earlier they had been responsible for and let off with the the deaths of two unarmed men and hundreds of injuries during the 1913 lockout. Particularly when the ICA members were involved in the Rising, it was an ICA man who shot the first of the 3 unarmed policemen who were killed.

Jellybaby1

To bbobbyss: your questions are all valid but a lot to post. I too get confused by all the different groups involved in the 1916/War of Independence era. I usually read books and articles to find answers. I have been attending a lot of history talks and I'm getting the same stories over and over, also many little gems of information I never heard before, but at the same time I am coming up with more and more questions. My most recent question is why the GPO? The seat of British government at the time was Dublin Castle, so why take over a post office? If anyone can point me in the direction of a book or website that would address this, please let me know.

To Johnnybgood1 - when you said the RIC were usually local men. This is not what I learned from Jim Herlihy who wrote books on the RIC. I believe they were never stationed in their own or their spouse's home counties. If you have evidence to prove otherwise do please let me know as it will greatly assist my genealogical research.

Thanks, and apologies for butting in.

Griffin47

My father lived in Dublin, and his recollections of the RIC gave me the impression that these men were usually from other counties. Rather like An Garda Siochana later on, they had a reputation for being big rural men, well able to keep order.

Jellybaby1

When you look at photos of the RIC men, in rural areas, they would have been bigger than the local folk who had little enough to eat, but the RIC definitely were on the slim side. No overweight coppers in those days anyway. Any meat on them was probably pure muscle.

jonniebgood1

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

To Johnnybgood1 - when you said the RIC were usually local men. This is not what I learned from Jim Herlihy who wrote books on the RIC. I believe they were never stationed in their own or their spouse's home counties. If you have evidence to prove otherwise do please let me know as it will greatly assist my

to clarify: my understanding is that they were based in the locality for long periods of time. This gave them inside knowledge, intelligence I suppose. You are correct that they were specifically removed from their home areas. This was a specific implementation in the ric approx 1860s according t this book from that era https://books.google.ie/books?id=SrkvAAAAMAAJ&ots=xKS8-y7EHd&dq="royal+irish+constabulary"&pg=PR3&hl=en#v=onepage&q=%22royal%20irish%20constabulary%22&f=false constables were also forcibly removed from lay jobs that might align them with members of the community. Before this the force was organised on a county by county basis. The point I suppose I am making is that the force could relate to the locals in the community to some extent given they lived amongst them and had similar backgrounds.

A Dub in Glasgo

bobbyss wrote: »

Was there anything particularly strategic about it?

I am not sure there was other than a solid building to retreat to after St Stephens Green was in danger. However, what it did have was an arsenal of weapons which the rebels took (about 90 rifles with bayonets and 24,000 rounds of ammunition). This was very valuable considering the rebels did not have many arms

Jellybaby1

jonniebgood1 wrote: »

to clarify: my understanding is that they were based in the locality for long periods of time. This gave them inside knowledge, intelligence I suppose. You are correct that they were specifically removed from their home areas. This was a specific implementation in the ric approx 1860s according t this book from that era https://books.google.ie/books?id=SrkvAAAAMAAJ&ots=xKS8-y7EHd&dq="royal+irish+constabulary"&pg=PR3&hl=en#v=onepage&q=%22royal%20irish%20constabulary%22&f=false constables were also forcibly removed from lay jobs that might align them with members of the community. Before this the force was organised on a county by county basis. The point I suppose I am making is that the force could relate to the locals in the community to some extent given they lived amongst them and had similar backgrounds.

Ah yes, I quite understand your meaning now. Thanks for clarifying.

Jim2007

Griffin47 wrote: »

My father lived in Dublin, and his recollections of the RIC gave me the impression that these men were usually from other counties. Rather like An Garda Siochana later on, they had a reputation for being big rural men, well able to keep order.

At the time there were two police forces in the country - The Dublin Metropolitan Police (DMP) and the Royal Irish Constabulary (RIC). The DMP was as near as makes no difference to any normal police force of it's day, with the exception of G division where a section was responsible for 'political work'. The DMP was an unarmed police force again with the exception of G division-

The RIC was a different matter, while it did perform typical police work, it was a fully armed force capable of conduction warfare. In fact it's officers were used to teach musketry to WWI recruits. It was also actively involved in intelligence gathering, with a clearly defined procedure of writing, collating and distributing information gathered.

Membership of both forces was normally drawn from Ireland and was a mix of both religions. However catholics seem to only get promoted to the rank of head constable and not beyond that. I understand that out of a force of about 14K there were about 200 men at this rank so it was still a significant achievement to reach that rank.