DB pay claim

n97 mini

For anyone who missed it on the 1pm news.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0323/776878-dublin-bus-labour-court/

Domino effect from Luas, then IE, now DB. Is BE next?

Infini

n97 mini wrote: »

For anyone who missed it on the 1pm news.

http://www.rte.ie/news/2016/0323/776878-dublin-bus-labour-court/

Domino effect from Luas, then IE, now DB. Is BE next?

That ones been in a while think they lodged it a few months ago.

Cookie_Monster

25%
Is there going to be any justification on this figure or like IE and Luas have they just picked a nice big number?

StreetLight

Up to 25%

Are there other grades besides drivers involved?

cdebru

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

25%
Is there going to be any justification on this figure or like IE and Luas have they just picked a nice big number?

6% owed since 2009, and 18/19% in line with recent pay award in the public transport sector.

A senior civil servant actually put the value of the non payment of the 6% in 2009 at 13% in briefing notes to the current minister for transport when he took up the position.

Rather generously the unions haven't looked for the 6% to be back dated to 2009 afaik.


DB employees have fallen seriously behind in pay terms and conditions in the last 8 years compared to luas tram drivers, in pensionable pay after the latest pay rise for luas drivers they will be almost €18,000 a year better off, more holidays, sick pay, compassionate leave,better overtime rates, shorter working week, shorter spread over of duty, shorter maximum work time without a break ,bonus of 6.5% compared to 1.5% etc etc etc

markpb

cdebru wrote:

DB employees have fallen seriously behind in pay terms and conditions in the last 8 years compared to luas tram drivers

Why don't they quit and become tram drivers then?

Maybe the three Dart unions were right and it's a productivity thing? Each tram driver carries more people than a bus driver. So much responsibility!

Or maybe it's a T&C thing because tram drivers start work earlier and finish later, especially on weekends.

Or maybe the corporate structure they work within (transdev, RPA) makes more money than DB so they can afford to pay more.

cdebru

markpb wrote: »

Why don't they quit and become tram drivers then?

Maybe the three Dart unions were right and it's a productivity thing? Each tram driver carries more people than a bus driver. So much responsibility!

Or maybe it's a T&C thing because tram drivers start work earlier and finish later, especially on weekends.

Or maybe the corporate structure they work within (transdev, RPA) makes more money than DB so they can afford to pay more.

Not enough trams in the city to cater for them.

Maybe it's a difficulty and skill thing, driving a bus requires far more skill and is much more difficult than operating a tram, only in Ireland are tram drivers paid more than city bus drivers, and I know how impressed by normal practise in other countries posters are here.

Dublin bus services actually start earlier and finish later especially on weekends, but start earlier all week.

Interestingly the NTA took €2million back from Dublin Bus PSO payment as the company made "excessive" profit in 2014, it is likely to do the same for 2015, this at a time when Dublin bus employees were on reduced pay rates to assist the company apparently they ended up assisting the NTA/state to the tune of €2million.

Anyway the NBRU submission to the labour court is on their website.

Cookie_Monster

cdebru wrote: »

6% owed since 2009, and 18/19% in line with recent pay award in the public transport sector.

so, no then. a theoretical 6% and a copy and paste from a vaguely related companies deal.

cdebru

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

so, no then. a theoretical 6% and a copy and paste from a vaguely related companies deal.

There is no theory in it, the company signed up to the towards 2016 pay deal they asked for the deal to be paused in 2009, and reviewed in 2010, 2011 they again asked the LC as part of the cutting proposals to pause the deal, so there is no theory they owe 6% for the last 7 years.

The company had €2 million taken off it by the NTA for 2014 because it made excessive profit, that €2 million should have been returned to the employees rather than to the NTA who not only were owed a 6% pay rise they were also actually working under cuts to pay and other terms and conditions at the time.

All pay is related, that is how we arrive at pay rates for jobs across the economy, and pay within the same sectors are 100% related. The simple fact is that while some sections within public transport have been paid the towards 2016 pay deal, never had any cuts to wages or terms and conditions and recently received another significant pay rise because their funding is locked in, other sections of public transport the government can just remove their funding at will and the employees are expected to suck it up.

n97 mini

Luas drivers wanted IE pay levels, and now DB want Luas pay levels, are IE staff going to turn around and say "Hold on a second, our job actually IS more complicated etc etc etc" and start arguing there should be a good gulf between them and the rest?

cdebru

n97 mini wrote: »

Luas drivers wanted IE pay levels, and now DB want Luas pay levels, are IE staff going to turn around and say "Hold on a second, our job actually IS more complicated etc etc etc" and start arguing there should be a good gulf between them and the rest?

Yes

markpb

cdebru wrote:

Not enough trams in the city to cater for them.

cdebru wrote:

Maybe it's a difficulty and skill thing, driving a bus requires far more skill and is much more difficult than operating a tram, only in Ireland are tram drivers paid more than city bus drivers, and I know how impressed by normal practise in other countries posters are here.

cdebru wrote:

Not enough trams in the city to cater for them.

I know you didn't mean that to be as ironic but it really was. If staff aren't happy, they can leave and get another job. The reason employers pay more is to retain staff. If DB aren't having problems retaining staff (because there isn't the demand for them elsewhere, as you've mentioned) then why would a pay rise be necessary?

cdebru wrote:

All pay is related, that is how we arrive at pay rates for jobs across the economy, and pay within the same sectors are 100% related.

The idea that pay should be comparable across a sector is one peddled by unions when they want a pay rise. Pay should be affected by the performance of the company, performance of the employee and the difficulty the company would have in replacing that employee.

magicbastarder

so if the luas drivers got a pay rise to bring them closer in line to IE staff, and IE staff get a pay rise, will that mean that the luas drivers will ask for another pay rise?

Vic_08

markpb wrote: »

The idea that pay should be comparable across a sector is one peddled by unions when they want a pay rise.

It is also an idea peddled by those justifying their anti-worker stances when they find figures to suit their agenda.

So which is it, is pay in related jobs relevant or not?

markpb wrote: »

Pay should be affected by the performance of the company, performance of the employee and the difficulty the company would have in replacing that employee.

That DB have been continuously recruiting drivers for more than 2 years and have long since dropped the standards requiring qualified applicants might point to how replaceable the driving grade is.

cdebru

magicbastarder wrote: »

so if the luas drivers got a pay rise to bring them closer in line to IE staff, and IE staff get a pay rise, will that mean that the luas drivers will ask for another pay rise?

If they accept the deal not before 2020 that would be when the deal expires

cdebru

markpb wrote: »

I know you didn't mean that to be as ironic but it really was. If staff aren't happy, they can leave and get another job. The reason employers pay more is to retain staff. If DB aren't having problems retaining staff (because there isn't the demand for them elsewhere, as you've mentioned) then why would a pay rise be necessary?

No you specifically asked why didn't bus drivers just go and drive trams since it is better paid, the answer is there are only 174 tram drivers on luas and there are over 2000 bus drivers in Dublin Bus.

Dublin bus remains short of drivers despite trying to recruit drivers for more than 2 years. Obviously despite nearly 400,000 people on social welfare it is not easy to find suitable candidates.


QUOTE=markpb;99168708]The idea that pay should be comparable across a sector is one peddled by unions when they want a pay rise. Pay should be affected by the performance of the company, performance of the employee and the difficulty the company would have in replacing that employee.[/QUOTE]

Odd when pointed out how well luas was performing it was apparently irrelevant, but as you mention it the NTA took 2 million off Dublin last year because they made excessive profit.
And again Dublin bus has been recruiting drivers for 2 years and continues to do so.

n97 mini

cdebru wrote: »

Yes

Do you know what a feedback loop is?

cdebru

n97 mini wrote: »

Do you know what a feedback loop is?

That's where we are, this is how it works in the absence of a national wage agreement, job x gets an increase and those ahead and behind them in payscales seek to close or reopen the previous gap in pay between them.

In a national wage agreement everyone gets x% so no issue, this is what the people who believe social partnership was a disaster have been arguing for, now we have it, they don't like the alternative too much either.

Cookie_Monster

the problem with the national wage agreement was it only went one way and as soon as there was any trouble in the economy it was abandoned by the unions rather than rationalising like every other sector did.

cdebru

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

the problem with the national wage agreement was it only went one way and as soon as there was any trouble in the economy it was abandoned by the unions rather than rationalising like every other sector did.

It was abandoned by the unions ? I think you may need to reread events from 2008 and 2009, anyway I'm not arguing for its return, merely pointing out the reality of no agreement this is how it looks, and it is only starting, my point was from a Government/ employer perspective last year was the time to do it, although it may have been difficult to bring unions along.

punisher5112

I would jump at a chance to get onto the trams or dart but haven't been lucky enough at recruiting times.

DB staff have to deal with anything and everything from fares, aggressive passengers, aggressive road users, cyclists weaving in and out and passing up inside while turning, abuse, attacks which yes still happen, all sorts of questions etc etc.....

Drivers are now subjected to for 12 years not being marked in and have no routine whatsoever where they only know the day before what way they will work the next day.

Its quite obvious how staff are treated that the company management would rather staff only stay short time and move on as the conditions are terrible.

Earlies mean nothing and lates the same as you could still start at 7-730 in morning on late and finish 2130 on earlies.

Its in no way an easy job at all.

Easy to say go find another job or leave but for most who are renting/mortgage and kids and so on that's not a possibility unless one plans to live off the social.