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Refuse rent hike, can I be evicted?

  • 21-03-2016 9:39pm
    #1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,042 ✭✭✭


    Hello all. I'll keep this brief. I'm in a fixed term lease until June. The rent was increased when I signed this lease last June. So with the new legislation I'm under the impression that the rent can't go up again. But if I refuse the increase can the landlord end my tenancy in June at the end if the lease and get rid of me?

    Thanks

    Dk


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,632 ✭✭✭Aint Eazy Being Cheezy


    Nope. Lodge a prtb case.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,042 ✭✭✭zl1whqvjs75cdy


    Cheers. I figured that alright. I'll get back to him and lay down the law. Literally.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,632 ✭✭✭Aint Eazy Being Cheezy


    I think there's templates you can download to reject the increase, stating which grounds etc. Play about on Google for a bit, or someone else with more knowledge than me might point you.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 23,243 Mod ✭✭✭✭godtabh


    Of course he can end your tenancy in june. Assuming its a fixed term lease as long as he gives the correct notice he hasnt done anything illegal.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,042 ✭✭✭zl1whqvjs75cdy


    godtabh wrote: »
    Of course he can end your tenancy in june. Assuming its a fixed term lease as long as he gives the correct notice he hasnt done anything illegal.

    But if he then re advertises with increased rent that's illegal no? Otherwise what's the point of the legislation?


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,643 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    godtabh wrote: »
    Of course he can end your tenancy in june. Assuming its a fixed term lease as long as he gives the correct notice he hasnt done anything illegal.

    What's to stop the OP claiming a part 4 tenancy?


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 23,243 Mod ✭✭✭✭godtabh


    Graham wrote: »
    What's to stop the OP claiming a part 4 tenancy?

    Landlord just has to give the correct notice. You can't have it both ways


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,643 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    godtabh wrote: »
    Landlord just has to give the correct notice. You can't have it both ways
    After the first 6 months you acquire rights to security of tenure, even if you have a fixed-term tenancy (of 1 year, for example) – read more in our document on security of tenure for private tenants.
    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/if_your_landlord_wants_you_to_leave.html


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,632 ✭✭✭Aint Eazy Being Cheezy


    godtabh wrote: »
    Landlord just has to give the correct notice. You can't have it both ways

    Are you sure? The way you're describing it sounds like each year is a seperate tenancy, instead of a continuation of one, and subject to the restrictions on rent increases.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 23,243 Mod ✭✭✭✭godtabh


    Are you sure? The way you're describing it sounds like each year is a seperate tenancy, instead of a continuation of one, and subject to the restrictions on rent increases.

    Are 6 months you get part 4 rights.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,576 ✭✭✭Keane2baMused


    The landlord has the right to increase the rent, within reason.

    He cannot however end the tenancy and re-market it at a hiked price. That is illegal. He can end the tenancy if there are renovations or if a family member needs it however.


  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,643 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    godtabh wrote: »
    Are 6 months you get part 4 rights. The landlord can issue notice of the relevant period to coincide with the end of the fixed term period. It's not rocket science

    Are you absolutely sure?
    Following the expiration of the fixed term period however, if the tenant has exercised his rights under Part 4, to extend his tenure for the remainder of the Part 4 tenancy of 4 years, the landlord can from then on, rely on the provisions of Section 34.

    http://www.prtb.ie/dispute-resolution/disputes/terminating-a-fixed-term-tenancy


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 117 ✭✭rebelwithcause


    godtabh wrote: »
    Are 6 months you get part 4 rights. The landlord can issue notice of the relevant period to coincide with the end of the fixed term period. It's not rocket science

    You are wrong there, if the tenant has been there for 1 year, they already have Part iV tenancy rights and the landlord can't issue a notice if termination except for very specific reasons such as either selling it, or him or a family member moving in. If he breached this the tenant has as trong case with the PRTB. No new lease need to issue at all.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,023 ✭✭✭testaccount123


    godtabh wrote: »
    Are 6 months you get part 4 rights. The landlord can issue notice of the relevant period to coincide with the end of the fixed term period. It's not rocket science

    What are you talking about. Tenancies work in four year cycles here, your landlord cant just decide to evict you at the end of a fixed term.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 423 ✭✭Clampdown


    Give written notice that you intend to go into Part 4 tenancy and state that as the rent was already reviewed and increased last year, it cannot be increased for another 2 years. You can download a copy of the residential tenancy act to attach with relevant sections highlighted. Sounds a bit OTT but unfortunately as a tenant in Ireland you often have to make landlords aware of the laws as they don't know them, or even if they do, they assume tenants don't and try to take advantage. And some just don't care and try to bully tenants into increases out of fear of becoming homeless.

    Do not sign anything agreeing to the rent increase. You have no need for a fixed term lease if you don't want one and they can only ask you to vacate if they are selling or want to live there or have a family member live there, or you go into arrears.

    The fact that your lease is up does not mean your tenancy is up or that the landlord has the opportunity to increase the rent again. If he has already done it to you within the previous 2 years he can't. But many landlords fail to understand this and try to celebrate every anniversary of every tenants move in date with a rent increase and think a new lease MUST be signed. Also, he can only increase it to the current market rate.

    But all of these rules are very tough to enforce. It's a bad situation for renters if you are in an area in high demand the landlords are trying to get top dollar at all times. You have to fight your corner and keep good records, keep all correspondence and do everything in writing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,042 ✭✭✭zl1whqvjs75cdy


    Thanks everyone. I'll have a proper read of the legislation at the weekend as there seems to be some conflicting info in here. My initial feeling was he can't evict and then re advertise at a higher rent but id like to be sure. I'll report back once I get through the full document.


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 60,110 Mod ✭✭✭✭Tar.Aldarion


    After 6 months you are in a part 4 and they can't give notice apart from in very specific circumstances. This will apply for 4 years and then they can give notice before a new period of four years begins.


  • Posts: 24,714 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Clampdown wrote: »
    Give written notice that you intend to go into Part 4 tenancy and state that as the rent was already reviewed and increased last year, it cannot be increased for another 2 years.

    If it was increased last year it can be increased next year not in two years.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,295 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    After 6 months you are in a part 4 and they can't give notice apart from in very specific circumstances.

    However rent arrears is one of those circumstances.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,102 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    How long does the landlord or family member have to live in the place before it can be put up for rent again?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    Del2005 wrote: »
    How long does the landlord or family member have to live in the place before it can be put up for rent again?

    6 months, or a first refusal to the old tenant must be offered.

    The landlord requires the dwelling or the property containing the dwelling for his or her own occupation or for occupation by a member of his or her family and the notice of termination (the “notice”) contains or is accompanied, in writing, by a statement—

    (a) specifying—

    (i) the intended occupant's identity and (if not the landlord) his or her relationship to the landlord, and

    (ii) the expected duration of that occupation,

    and

    (b) that the landlord, by virtue of the notice, is required to offer to the tenant a tenancy of the dwelling if the contact details requirement is complied with and the following conditions are satisfied—

    (i) the dwelling is vacated by the person referred to in subparagraph (a) within the period of 6 months from expiry of the period of notice required to be given by the notice or, if a dispute in relation to the validity of the notice was referred to the Board under Part 6 for resolution, the final determination of the dispute, and

    (ii) the tenancy to which the notice related had not otherwise been validly terminated by virtue of the citation in the notice of the ground specified in paragraph 1, 2, 3 or 6 of this Table.


  • Posts: 24,714 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    6 months, or a first refusal to the old tenant must be offered.

    Realistically the old tenant will have got a new place and signed a lease before moving out so a LL can offer them first refusal long before the 6 months knowing well they will refuse it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,514 ✭✭✭TheChizler


    OSI wrote: »
    It shouldbe noted that you MUST notify the landlord you are claiming a part 4 tenancy though. You can't just retroactively claim it when things get hairy.
    Except that's totally incorrect, part 4 rights are automatic. I'm not sure where people get this idea that you have to specifically claim them, it's constantly being stated, and corrected, here.

    http://www.citizensinformation.ie/en/housing/renting_a_home/types_of_tenancy.html

    There is an obligation to give notice that you intend to stay on past the end of the lease, but that doesn't affect your rights. It just means that you won't be liable for costs the landlord wastes readvertising the property etc.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    Realistically the old tenant will have got a new place and signed a lease before moving out so a LL can offer them first refusal long before the 6 months knowing well they will refuse it.

    You could retroactively open a dispute for illegal eviction if they're taking the piss though.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 35 ckblackrock


    You are wrong there, if the tenant has been there for 1 year, they already have Part iV tenancy rights and the landlord can't issue a notice if termination except for very specific reasons such as either selling it, or him or a family member moving in. If he breached this the tenant has as trong case with the PRTB. No new lease need to issue at all.

    Wondering what the situation is re. a tenancy agreed for 11 months, where the owner needs use of the property for a family member for 1 month each year. Does the tenant get Part IV rights? this would be a genuine situation, family members home for 1 month each year and needing somewhere to stay.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,295 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Wondering what the situation is re. a tenancy agreed for 11 months, where the owner needs use of the property for a family member for 1 month each year. Does the tenant get Part IV rights? this would be a genuine situation, family members home for 1 month each year and needing somewhere to stay.

    The tenant gets part IV rights - but also gets the legally required notice that the LL requires the house for a family member so is ending the tenancy. For a tenancy less than 1 year, that notice is 35 days.

    The challenge would be what to do if the tenant overholds: potentially you could end up with no house for the family member, and a tenant who refuses to pay rent.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭Butters1979


    Wondering what the situation is re. a tenancy agreed for 11 months, where the owner needs use of the property for a family member for 1 month each year. Does the tenant get Part IV rights? this would be a genuine situation, family members home for 1 month each year and needing somewhere to stay.

    As far as I'm aware the family member needs to occupy the property 6 months minimum for a tenant to be evicted so this would not be legal.


  • Posts: 24,714 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    As far as I'm aware the family member needs to occupy the property 6 months minimum for a tenant to be evicted so this would not be legal.

    Renting rooms seperately and keeping access to the common areas thus keeping the people there as licensees rather than tenants is probably the only way to operate in this arrangement.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    As far as I'm aware the family member needs to occupy the property 6 months minimum for a tenant to be evicted so this would not be legal.

    No, that's the minimum occupation whereby the landlord would not require to offer a tenancy to the previous tenant on the family member leaving. There's nothing stopping an 11 month tenancy with a family member taking over for a month, but the law says the landlord must give the old tenant an option of taking the property again.

    I'm not sure on tenure lengths in this arrangement and whether the break in occupation means they need to be there for 6 months again for Part 4 rights.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭Butters1979


    No, that's the minimum occupation whereby the landlord would not require to offer a tenancy to the previous tenant on the family member leaving. There's nothing stopping an 11 month tenancy with a family member taking over for a month, but the law says the landlord must give the old tenant an option of taking the property again.

    I'm not sure on tenure lengths in this arrangement and whether the break in occupation means they need to be there for 6 months again for Part 4 rights.

    Hmm, then it sounds messy but to be honest I'm not sure at all. It would be a weird situation that I doubt any tenant would put up with for so long anyway.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,295 ✭✭✭✭Mrs OBumble


    Hmm, then it sounds messy but to be honest I'm not sure at all. It would be a weird situation that I doubt any tenant would put up with for so long anyway.

    Don't assume. Depending on what the tenant does (student, seasonal worker) and what their own situation is, they may be happy to move out for a month each year and then move back again.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,223 ✭✭✭Michael D Not Higgins


    Don't assume. Depending on what the tenant does (student, seasonal worker) and what their own situation is, they may be happy to move out for a month each year and then move back again.

    Particularly if they've negotiated a below market rent because of the situation.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    Even at the end of the four year cycle you still have the right to stay on don't you?


  • Posts: 24,714 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Even at the end of the four year cycle you still have the right to stay on don't you?

    No you can be asked to leave without any reason at the end of the 4 year cycle, getting the required notice of course.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    No you can be asked to leave without any reason at the end of the 4 year cycle, getting the required notice of course.

    Ah I see, what happens if you've had 4 fixed term 1 year leases and have never asserted a part 4 tenancy? Can you initiate one at the end of that final 1 year lease?


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  • Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 17,643 Mod ✭✭✭✭Graham


    Ah I see, what happens if you've had 4 fixed term 1 year leases and have never asserted a part 4 tenancy? Can you initiate one at the end of that final 1 year lease?

    lol, nice try.

    A part 4 tenancy isn't connected to any fixed term lease.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,164 ✭✭✭Butters1979


    Don't assume. Depending on what the tenant does (student, seasonal worker) and what their own situation is, they may be happy to move out for a month each year and then move back again.

    In that case the LL and tenant would have a mutual agreed on this arrangement and therefore any rules and regulations don't really matter.
    Ah I see, what happens if you've had 4 fixed term 1 year leases and have never asserted a part 4 tenancy? Can you initiate one at the end of that final 1 year lease?

    Part IV tenancy rights automatically are in place after 6 months and automatically expire after 4 years. You do not have to assert them.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    Thanks for clarifying. That's a bit crap though isn't it?

    My rent was increased during summer 2015. My lease term ends in summer this year and it is my fourth one. Does this mean the landlord is free to give me the boot so he can charge a new tenant a higher rent again?


  • Posts: 24,714 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Thanks for clarifying. That's a bit crap though isn't it?

    My rent was increased during summer 2015. My lease term ends in summer this year and it is my fourth one. Does this mean the landlord is free to give me the boot so he can charge a new tenant a higher rent again?

    Once he give you the correct notice yes he can ask you to leave if he wants.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    Once he give you the correct notice yes he can ask you to leave if he wants.

    ...and he can ask the next tenant for a higher rent? In spite of the recent legislation.


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  • Posts: 24,714 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    ...and he can ask the next tenant for a higher rent? In spite of the recent legislation.

    Yes because the new tenant would be a totally new tenancy unconnected to anything which happened during your tenancy.

    It's not in spite of recent legislation, new legislation is dealing with existing tenants, it was never meant to prevent a LL from doing what you are suggesting. You hardly expect a tenant to be able to have indefinite occupation of a property they don't own.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,759 ✭✭✭jobbridge4life


    Yes because the new tenant would be a totally new tenancy unconnected to anything which happened during your tenancy.

    It's not in spite of recent legislation, new legislation is dealing with existing tenants, it was never meant to prevent a LL from doing what you are suggesting. You hardly expect a tenant to be able to have indefinite occupation of a property they don't own.

    No, but I didn't expect the law to be so constituted as to in essence incentivise a landlord to evict a tenant either. If I wish to remain the landlord cannot increase the rent, if he boots me he can do so. That is not an intellegent design for the law.

    On the wider point I don't necessarily know that I don't think a tenant, who has behaved appropriately, paid their rent, should have the right to greater security of tenure. Business owners can't arbitrarily dismiss good employees there maybe a case to be made for similar protections for upstanding tenants.


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