Beginner advice

sharkey 25

Hi

I'm looking for some beginner advice on running. It has been a while since I've been involved in any type of training and previously I had done quite a bit of weight training but not to much cardio work.
Over the last six months or so I've put on a bit of weight due to a poor lifestyle ie too many take aways and beer.
What type of training programmes have people here found good? I suppose that tracking improvement in times/distance would be good in that seeing improvements would spur me on.
I dont have any particular goal in mind but this could be part of an overall lifestyle change for me.

Any advice would be appreciated

The Muppet

The couch 2 5 k program is good for starting from a low fitness level . There are a few free apps for smartphone that help and there are free podcasts on the nhs choices site. I used this myself and found them excellent.

The best of luck.ļ

spaceylou

+1 to the Couch to 5k programme (or more accurately one of the many variations on the theme out there)

Make sure if you are going to be running you have a decent pair of runners. Even if they cost a little more than you want to spend, they will save you money in physio and blister plasters down the line! Also read the sticky in this forum for lots of tips and advice.

Greenmachine

Another who went the c25k route. I used the audio recordings from the nhs.

Ososlo

Another vote for Couch to 5k here. Give it a shot! You won't regret it!

sharkey 25

Thanks lads, that sounds good. Just having a quick look online it seems there are a few different apps for the c25k. Which ones did you find the best.
Also I know running technique is important to avoid injury and develope good habits. What tips would you have on this? I have a pair of Asics runners which cost me about 70e. What should I look out for in a good pair of runners?

spaceylou

I can't remember the C25K I used but they all more or less do the same thing - so many out there would suggest no point paying for one but beyond that I am afraid not much advice. They all more or less do the same thing - mix running with walking gradually increasing the running time and reducing the walking time until you are running the whole thing.

As for runners, it is not about the cost per se (although unless you really lucky, chances of something you picked up for €20 somewhere doing the job are pretty slim) but about the shoe suiting your feet and your gait. Asics are a good brand, but again what suits one person won't suit another. If they are comfy, not too old, give you support where you need it and haven't lost their 'spring' then they probably grand to get you started, just be sure and treat yourself to a new pair in a while if when you stick with running. When doing so, go somewhere that knows running shoes and will do gait analysis.

FIFA2004

Another +1 for couch to 5k! I liked the app by active network. It costs 2.99 but it measures the distance and speeds, and seperates it into walking and running speed at the end. I used the fact that I'd spent money on it as motivation to get off the couch too
I used the free ones too but I get a bit obsessed by the numbers so liked not having two apps on the go to measure it; and easily being able to separate the running and walking segments

Clearlier

sharkey 25 wrote: »

Also I know running technique is important to avoid injury and develope good habits.

If you run with the best posture you can and take short strides you won't go too far wrong.

Enduro

spaceylou wrote: »

As for runners, it is not about the cost per se (although unless you really lucky, chances of something you picked up for €20 somewhere doing the job are pretty slim) but about the shoe suiting your feet and your gait.

The bit in brackets completely contradicts your main point. Cost is no indicator of suitability either because of expense OR cheapness! There was an interesting piece of observational research a few years ago which analysed a large number of marathon runners looking for patterns and correlations. The only correlation they found was that the more expensive a pair of shoes worn, the more likely it was that the runner had developed an injury (Note: it was not saying at all that expensive running shoes cause injuries)

ThisRegard

Clearlier wrote: »

If you run with the best posture you can and take short strides you won't go too far wrong.

Timely article in todays Times
http://www.irishtimes.com/life-and-style/health-family/future-proof-your-running-relax-and-use-your-whole-body-1.2572820

spaceylou

Enduro wrote: »

The bit in brackets completely contradicts your main point. Cost is no indicator of suitability either because of expense OR cheapness! There was an interesting piece of observational research a few years ago which analysed a large number of marathon runners looking for patterns and correlations. The only correlation they found was that the more expensive a pair of shoes worn, the more likely it was that the runner had developed an injury (Note: it was not saying at all that expensive running shoes cause injuries)

The bit in brackets does not contradict my main point. Simply put high cost does not necessarily mean the shoe will suit a particular foot. But the only place you'll get a pair of runners at full price for 20euro is going to be a high street fashion store where the chances are unless you are really lucky the shoes won't suit your feet for running in.

That is of course not to say that there aren't the odd exceptions.

Or that if you are alert to bargains, special offers and so on you won't get a pair for 20 euro on discount.

But I was referring to full price and the majority of feet.

With regard to the study, sounds interesting, what other variables were measured aside from shoe cost and injury?

Enduro

spaceylou wrote: »

The bit in brackets does not contradict my main point. Simply put high cost does not necessarily mean the shoe will suit a particular foot. But the only place you'll get a pair of runners at full price for 20euro is going to be a high street fashion store where the chances are unless you are really lucky the shoes won't suit your feet for running in.

That is of course not to say that there aren't the odd exceptions.

It does directly contradict it. You said "it's not about the cost per se" (Which I entirely agree with), but then go on to say that, to paraphrase, that cheap shoes will more than likely not be good enough (Which I disagree with). That is a direct contradiction.

spaceylou wrote: »

Or that if you are alert to bargains, special offers and so on you won't get a pair for 20 euro on discount.

But I was referring to full price and the majority of feet.

There are lots of running shoes available for 20 quid or so. None of them will be big brand name shoes. And therein lies the clue. A lot of what you are paying for with big brand shoes is the brand and everything it takes to support that brand (Marketing, R&D etc etc) along with retailer margins etc. A big source of cheaper shoes are the likes of Aldi, Lidl, Dunnes, Tescos etc that either have no need to support a brand in the cost of the shoes, or to add the kind of margins that more specialist retailers would need to (It's mainly a matter of throwing another box of product onto the shelves... not much different to anything else they already sell).

The only way to really find out whether the extra cost of the branded shoes is worth the multiples of cost that you spend on them is to try out shoes for yourself. From my own experience, I've found that the 20 Euro shoes can perform perfectly adequately. I do an average of 2 training days a week in a pair of shoes that cost me 15 euro. I have won a national championship in a pair of shoes that cost me 20 euro. (And those 20 euro shoes totally outperformed shoes that cost me 5x as much and more).

spaceylou wrote: »

With regard to the study, sounds interesting, what other variables were measured aside from shoe cost and injury?

Had a quick google. Can't find the study directly. Will look again later. In the meantime, this was an interesting article.

ncmc

sharkey 25 wrote: »

Thanks lads, that sounds good. Just having a quick look online it seems there are a few different apps for the c25k. Which ones did you find the best.
Also I know running technique is important to avoid injury and develope good habits. What tips would you have on this? I have a pair of Asics runners which cost me about 70e. What should I look out for in a good pair of runners?

I think all the couch to 5k apps are pretty much the same, don't bother paying for one, because they all do the same thing. In fact, you don't even need an app really, when I first did the C25K a few years back, I just used a stopwatch :pac:

I also wouldn't worry about new shoes for the moment, for the first few weeks at least, the amount of running isn't that huge, so any half decent (i.e. not fashion) trainer should suffice. If you find you love it and stick at it, you could go and get your gait analysed. A lot of good sports shops offer this service for a small fee (often redeemable against a purchase) The basically video you running in bare feet and can advise on a shoe based on your running style.

For the moment, just concentrate on keeping a good posture and your head up. Try and relax the muscles as you run and monitor your breathing. Best of luck with it!

spaceylou

Enduro wrote: »

There are lots of running shoes available for 20 quid or so. None of them will be big brand name shoes. And therein lies the clue. A lot of what you are paying for with big brand shoes is the brand and everything it takes to support that brand (Marketing, R&D etc etc) along with retailer margins etc. A big source of cheaper shoes are the likes of Aldi, Lidl, Dunnes, Tescos etc that either have no need to support a brand in the cost of the shoes, or to add the kind of margins that more specialist retailers would need to (It's mainly a matter of throwing another box of product onto the shelves... not much different to anything else they already sell).

The only way to really find out whether the extra cost of the branded shoes is worth the multiples of cost that you spend on them is to try out shoes for yourself. From my own experience, I've found that the 20 Euro shoes can perform perfectly adequately. I do an average of 2 training days a week in a pair of shoes that cost me 15 euro. I have won a national championship in a pair of shoes that cost me 20 euro. (And those 20 euro shoes totally outperformed shoes that cost me 5x as much and more).

Being honest didn't think of the likes of Aldi and Lidl and although I like their socks, I don't find the quality of their running pants up to much - go funny after a few washes - so not sure I'd chance the runners when you can't really fit them on in store, jog around in them etc. before purchase. But hey if they work for you, more power to ya (and your wallet).

But enough hijacking the OP thread...OP - go run, enjoy it!

The Muppet

I used to track my runs on my phone with endomondoand found that useful. I used that with the afore mentioned nhs podcasts when starting out.

I also ran in lidl running shoes at first and never had ant injuries with them' they were grand go me. As my milage increased I statted to wear brand name runners .asics, brooks and nikes on the go at the moment.

sharkey 25

As a novice I have noticed a lot of people use armbands for their phones while running. I have seen these in sport shops but I've tried my phone in those but it's too large for them. It's a Sony z3 which is a large phone. Does anyone know where I could get a arm band for a bigger phone?
Also what do people find are the best type of thing/time to eat before running so your able to get the most from the run?

Enduro

sharkey 25 wrote: »

Also what do people find are the best type of thing/time to eat before running so your able to get the most from the run?

Before run : nothing. Eat normally. Don't train yourself to need to eat before running.

El Caballo

Enduro wrote: »

Before run : nothing. Eat normally. Don't train yourself to need to eat before running.

Don't want to get into this debate again but we are talking about a self-admitted novice here. Having energy just to get out and run and enjoy it should be the main goal for a novice runner.

Sharkey, I find eating 2-3 hours before a run to be my sweetspot but some people with iron stomachs can eat closer without any effects. Just eating normally and avoiding fatty foods like fries etc should be should be fine for you right now.

The Muppet

sharkey 25 wrote: »

As a novice I have noticed a lot of people use armbands for their phones while running. I have seen these in sport shops but I've tried my phone in those but it's too large for them. It's a Sony z3 which is a large phone. Does anyone know where I could get a arm band for a bigger phone

Sports direct do an armband that will do. That said a flip belt is the business.

ger664

Please leave the phone at home.

Ososlo

ger664 wrote: »

Please leave the phone at home.

If the op is using the phone for a running app that is helping to get him started then I don't agree with this. Whatever helps when you start out just go with it!
I used an app when I started out and it was great to give the cues about when to run/walk/breath etc!!!

Yintang

ger664 wrote: »

Please leave the phone at home.

Agreed! I hate running with a phone, far too bulky. And I don't like those arm straps at all, they always start to feel annoying a few minutes into the run. I need music though, so have a tiny iPod nano which fits neatly into my pocket.

As regards food before a run, generally try to leave it at least 2 hours after a meal before heading out. Obviously this differs from person to person, so see what fits your schedule and lifestyle.

With regard to the runners - I've seen many people splash out lots of €€ on fancy runners, only to decide a few weeks later that they don't like running, and the trainers sit gathering dust! Better to use the ones you've got for the first while, and if you're enjoying it, then treat yourself to a new pair (and a gait analysis).

Fair play to you for making the changes in your life! Good luck, hope you enjoy it!!

ThisRegard

ger664 wrote: »

Please leave the phone at home.

I wouldn't agree. Depending on the environment it can be nice to get lost in the music, radio or podcasts. In the evenings I'll often time my run to coincide with something coming up on the radio.

On the trails I'd still bring it with me for emergencies but wouldn't listen to anything on it.

ger664

Ososlo wrote: »

If the op is using the phone for a running app that is helping to get him started then I don't agree with this. Whatever helps when you start out just go with it!
I used an app when I started out and it was great to give the cues about when to run/walk/breath etc!!!

I think OP would be better off finding a Fit4Life/c25K group with real people and a real life coach to give him cues. Will most likely get more enjoyment out of it that way.

Ososlo

ger664 wrote: »

I think OP would be better off finding a Fit4Life/c25K group with real people and a real life coach to give him cues. Will most likely get more enjoyment out of it that way.

Personally I would have hated that when starting out but perhaps the op would enjoy it. Different strokes... but no one right way to approach it. Just do whatever you find easiest op.

ger664

ThisRegard wrote: »

I wouldn't agree. Depending on the environment it can be nice to get lost in the music, radio or podcasts. In the evenings I'll often time my run to coincide with something coming up on the radio.

On the trails I'd still bring it with me for emergencies but wouldn't listen to anything on it.

Agree with you on the trails, they are so enjoyable no need for any distraction. However on the roads I run on you cannot aimlessly plod along with music in your ears.

Enduro

El Caballo wrote: »

Don't want to get into this debate again but we are talking about a self-admitted novice here. Having energy just to get out and run and enjoy it should be the main goal for a novice runner.

Being a novice means that he hasn't started "training in" bad habits or phsychological dependencies (Such as "needing" to fuel up before going running). It's easier not to get into bad habits in the first place rather than have to de-train them later.

More importantly he is unlikely to be running for so long that he needs to worry about any nutrtional issues, whether that be glycogen depletion or fat adaptation (irrespective of where you stand on the HFLC vs HCLF debate). He is going to have the energy anyway. As you yourself pretty much say, the only problems that nutional issues are likely to cause is from eating too close to exercise.

The Muppet

ger664 wrote: »

I think OP would be better off finding a Fit4Life/c25K group with real people and a real life coach to give him cues. Will most likely get more enjoyment out of it that way.

Running in groups is not for every one , I know i woulnd't have gone near one when I started out. I used a couch 2 5k podcast so needed to carry a player , my phone being the choice, I still carry it and listen to music or radio on all easy and long runs, I leave it at home for sessions .

El Caballo

Enduro wrote: »

Being a novice means that he hasn't started "training in" bad habits or phsychological dependencies (Such as "needing" to fuel up before going running). It's easier not to get into bad habits in the first place rather than have to de-train them later.

More importantly he is unlikely to be running for so long that he needs to worry about any nutrtional issues, whether that be glycogen depletion or fat adaptation (irrespective of where you stand on the HFLC vs HCLF debate). He is going to have the energy anyway. As you yourself pretty much say, the only problems that nutional issues are likely to cause is from eating too close to exercise.

Iast post on this that bolded part is highly subjective and biased towards your distance of choice. For instance, I'm focusing on the 3k this year and if I want to do a morning workout, the very last thing I want or need is to be in a fasted hypoglycemic state because I haven't eaten in 10 hours. I've done fasted workouts like that and they are not fun, dizzy spells and mental fatigue etc. Even though I was only sleeping, that is enough to deplete my liver of glycogen stores which is what feeds my brain. My leg muscles will still have stores of glycogen but it can only used by the muscles, not the brain and organs so yes, eating is a psychological crutch, a very necessary crutch to our brains and organs to keep them fed and working to the optitimum and avoiding hypoglyceamia. It's not quite as black and white as you are painting to be.

Also, it is pretty well aknowledged that aerobically underveloped runners should avoid fasted morning runs because they will not be "fat-adapted" and run the risk of muscle atrophy when glycogen stores are depleted because you will go catobolic. I have first hand experience of this, if you go to my old log and even the first page of my new one, you will see me talk about my muscle atrophy and weight which was observed over months by my sports therapist who also has a background in nutrition. Before I started posting here, I was a proponent of fasted long runs in the morning for the DCM 14. I jumped straight into it without the background fat adaptions that come with a strong aerobic background so I was hugely stressing my body when I was by fasting when my body was inefficient to begin with. My body couldn't handle it and my ST said that my glutes resembled that of a 70 year old man and that's besides the fact that all my long runs ended with me feeling extremely confused and dizzy because I was hypoglyceamic. I'm also pretty sure that it played a part in my huge performance drop off post marathon. It took almost 4 months to build-up my muscles again and I haven't had a single issue with muscle atrophy since I stopped doing fasted runs in the morning.

I didn't want to make this complicated but there you go:pac:. For the OP, as you said yourself, fasting won't help with fat-adaption right now because the volume will be low and all the benefits will come from getting out and running more with regards fat-adaption. I tend to hold this opinion on every runner bar the guys who have maxed out their aerobic capacity. The stress is not worth it in my opinion when you can get the same effects from running more mileage. If the person then decides they need to need to deplete to improve that extra inch when they can't get anymore from their aerobic capacity because it is maxed, then the changeover to running depleted will be easier because they will already be fat-adapted to a certain extent because the aerobic capacity and fuel efficiency are intrinsically linked. Otherwise, I think they are wasting time and energy by fasting when they could just run more miles to get the same stress and not feel as sh*tty doing it. I wince when I see people who run 30-40 miles a week doing fasted runs, it makes absolutely no sense in my understanding of training.

I think in the case of the OP and beginners, it's best to just throw science out the window and focus on the fundamentals of running like just getting out to do it. We'll never agree with eachother on this:D but that's my take and I really don't have much more to say on the debate as my carbs are low today and I don't have the energy to keep posting on the topic;):)

Enduro

To be explicit, I'm not advocating fasting (for the OP). What I'm advocating is that there is no need to do anything different to his normal eating routine. Hence the shortness and simplicity of my original post on the matter "Before run : nothing. Eat normally." I'm not (and didn't) advocating fasting for a newbie runner. Surely a new runner shouldn't be running sessions of such intensity/volume that they'd run into serious glycogen depletion issues. So there should be no need to make any dietry adaptions just to get out and start running. It's an unneccessary complication. You yourself have pointed out (and I agree entirely with you) that eating too close to training has potential to cause problems.

I will stand over my assertion that building a phsychological dependance on "needing" to eat before going for a run is not good (and hence that training yourself to need to eat before going running is a bad habit). It's part of a bigger picture of building fragilities and weaknesses that have huge downsides from a racing point of view (or even from a training point of view in terms of generating excuses not to do it!).

Edit: reading your last paragraph I actually think we're violently agreeing Just get out and run is the way to go!

RacoonQueen

ThisRegard wrote: »

I wouldn't agree. Depending on the environment it can be nice to get lost in the music, radio or podcasts. In the evenings I'll often time my run to coincide with something coming up on the radio.

On the trails I'd still bring it with me for emergencies but wouldn't listen to anything on it.

I was the same but I actually bring it on sessions with me now. I had a bad fall during a session 2 years ago now and could really have used someone to come pick up me - so I usually carry it in an armband if doing sessions alone now. Was annoying at first, but I'm used to it now.