Abuse Of Power re; Penalty Points. Advise Please.

InsiderIreland

Hi all,

I am reaching out here as I really need some advice and opinion on the following matter.

On Feb 26th 2016, at around 8.25 in the evening., a white car pulled up beside mine at traffic lights on Bothar Na Drabh, in Galway. As it pulled up and stopped abruptly, it caught my attention, so I looked across at it. There was a female Garda sitting in the passenger seat, the car was a white, unmarked Hyundai. I looked away again and thought more of it.

As I pulled away from the lights, it crossed over into the lane behind me, and stayed behind me as I crossed Galway city. I was stopped in traffic outside Dunnes Stores on the Headford Road, when I noticed the white Hyundai, still behind me, was flashing at me, and the driver was waving his hand at me. Assuming he wanted to speak to me about something, and considering the traffic situation, the lack of safe places to pull in, and the fact I did not consider it was urgent, I decided to cross the Quincentennial Bridge and pull into the petrol station there, safely out of the traffic flow.

I pulled up to a stop and switched off the engine. The unmarked Garda car pulled in beside me. Three uniformed Gardaí got out and approached my car, the time was 20.34. To say the least I was alarmed. One of them came to the drivers window. He said, 'you were on your mobile'. I was absolutely taken aback. I replied to him, 'I absolutely was not'. He said,'your not now, but you were on Bothar Na Drabh'. He asked me for my Driving Licence, which I produced there and then. While he was examining it, the two other Gardaí were looking over the car, checking tax, NCT and insurance. One looked in through the open passenger side window. He handed me back my driving licence, he did not say anything, the three of them then got back into their car and drove off.

Last week I got a Penality Points Notice, accusing me of holding a mobile phone, on Bothar na Drabh, at 8.40 (20.40, AFTER he had stopped me). Not only had the Garda not told me he was pursuing the matter, but my confidence in the Gardaí has been totally destroyed. I am shocked, annoyed and disappointed.

I was not holding a mobile phone. The car has Bluetooth which automatically connects to my mobile, it does not require any holding of the phone, to make or receive calls. In fact, the last call was made at 18.09 that day and the last call received was at 18.01. The last text received was at 12.16 that day and the only text send was at 20.44, after the Garda had stopped me.

The car I was driving was a rare, top end, performance car. It is used for chauffeur work and has black out blinds on the rear window and 100% dark tint on the rear passenger windows.
It is impossible to see into the car from the rear or from any angle, other than side by side, through the front windows.

The Garda could not have seen me holding a mobile phone, even if I had have been doing so, unless he was side by side with me, or a very slight angle to the rear. Obviously, after the Garda car had pulled up beside me originally at the traffic lights, and knowing that they were near me, I most certainly would not had attempted to hold a mobile phone.

I had been travelling up from a country location that evening, my Garmin Sat Nav was switched on and sitting on top of a jacket, on the front passenger seat, the screen was live, that is, constantly updating the route. My mobile phone was also sitting on the jacket. Both devices are almost exactly the same size, the mobile is a Note 3.

If the Garda spotted something, I can only assume he saw me switching off the Sat Nav as I came into Galway city on Bothar na Drabh. As I said, it was on all day, and at this stage sitting on a jacket on the front passenger seat.

To complete the picture, I better give you an outline of my own details. I have been driving for 29 years, no convictions, Penalty Points, accidents, fines, or have ever 'come to the attention of the Gardai'. I hold a full, clean driving licence, covering every class of vehicles. I also hold a PSV Licence.

My opinion is that possibly the Gardaí saw some light in the car, and assumed it was a mobile phone being used. It is also possible that the car attracted their attention and needing a reason to stop me, used the 'holding a mobile phone', line to justify the stop.

The bottom line is that while it may 'make sense', to just accept the points and move on, I really feel this type of behaviour and abuse of power by this Garda should be challenged.
To quote Edmund Burke, "All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing".

Any suggestion as to how I can appeal this decision, on what grounds and where do I go from here?

Many thanks,
DT

Stheno

You'll have to go to court to appeal.

If you lose your points will be doubled.

It's very much a "he said/she said" situation from what you describe.

ebbsy

Op lf what you are saying is true then go to court.

InsiderIreland

It's absolutely true, I'm not trying to avoid points that have been properly applied.

Atomic Pineapple

I'd say your best bet is to contact a lawyer if you want to take it to court. But as above unless you have an independent witness to prove your side of the story it's just going to be your word versus the word of three Gardai.

Red Kev

Your best bet is to look for a solicitor (the solicitor ?*) in the Galway area who specialises in traffic cases and contact them. Could cost you €300-€500 but you have a betterchance of getting off the points than if you go in yourself.

There is, however 3 Gardai against 1 driver here so you're on thin ice.

Personally I'd contact my insurance company and see how 2 and 4 points affect my premium and then make a call on it. For 29 years sccident free, it's possible a broker won't load your premium, so if that was the case I'd just pay the €80 through gritted teeth rather than risk the court case costs and cost of higher premiums.

So 1. Chat to insurance. 2. Contact the solicitor.


* Don't know Galway too well, but in a town that size there's usually a solicitor who specialses in cases like this, usually one who has a good rapport with the local Judiciary.

InsiderIreland

I understand the risk of going to court. But I cannot allow this type of abuse to succeed.

VincePP

Red Kev wrote: »

So 1. Chat to insurance. .

Never ever ever ever "chat to insurance" It WILL go on your record and they may add a loading.


As for posters that say its one word against another, incorrect. The op just needs to get verifiable records to show the phone was not used for phone, messaging or data download at that time. Mostly that info is on an itemised bill.

Photos of the rear window of the car can also be used to show darkness.

Don't argue the time of the ticket - clocks can be wrong and its the time and place the garda stopped you that is usually recorded.

OldMrBrennan83

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InsiderIreland

Id this what 100 years of independence and freedom come to?

1. Accepting punishment for a crime not committed?
2.The forces of Law and Order makes up the rules as they go along?

To be honest, I have always respected the Gardaí, alas no longer.

savagethegoat

you're going to have only a slim chance of proving to the courts satisfaction that the Gard has made a mistake. My heart says if you are convinced you are in the right, fight it....my head says you probably wont win.

Gards are human ,they do make mistakes and no doubt don't like admitting it. A Judge will accept their account of events over yours.

Marcusm

Were you at any stage holding the sat nav in your hand or touching otherwise than when it was in a cradle?

shietpilot

I had a similar experience with unmarked Gardai when they saw me stopped in a residential area at about 8:30 pm on a Friday night. It was also a white Hyundai thing and they decided to do a drug search for no apparent reason throwing questions like "but you smoke a bit of the weed once in a while, don't you?"

I've lost my respect for them after that incident to be honest... Complete power freaks.

mgbgt1978

Why would somebody use a Garmin Satnav to navigate while it is sitting on the passenger seat....rather than affixed to the front windscreen (like everyone else) ?
Even it was originally attached to the windscreen why would you then remove it and leave it on the seat for a while before switching it off ?

Surely almost every high-end Car which would be suitable for Limo work would have an inbuilt Satnav ?

Something's missing here .

guil

The charge isn't for using the phone so even with records it isn't a defence, the fact that the phone and sat nav were together on the jacket on the passenger seat makes it nearly impossible to prove you didn't pick up the phone and glance at it.

If the judge asks why was the sat nav on the seat, what answer could you give him?

Gumbo

If you can prove that you were nowhere near that road at that time surely you have a case for it to be struck out?

bidiots

VincePP wrote: »

The op just needs to get verifiable records to show the phone was not used for phone, messaging or data download at that time. Mostly that info is on an itemised bill.

This will not prove that it was not in his hand. Having the phone in your hand/on your lap is the offence. Using/not using phone/message/data will have no affect on the outcome.

It's 3 against 1. It's a pain in the ass, it's a bitter pill to swallow. Going to court is a gamble, not sure its worth it. I'd try and meet the Gardai in question and reiterate your stance. If nothing happens from that then chalk it down to wrong place at the wrong time. Or take the gamble.

Those giving out about spot checks for drugs etc, keep it going Garda, imo, one or two disgruntled innocent is worth it in the long run.

OldMrBrennan83

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molly09

Op there was a discussion about this topic on Joe Duffy during the week. I am sure it's on the podcast. I have no advice; it's a difficult situation. Although it will cost fees if over 300e and the fine is probably around 60e but the penalty points are a bummer to get.

bidiots

Patww79 wrote: »

This post has been deleted.

Once you are breathing, you will meet arseholes, in all walks of life! As certain as death and taxes!

Speedwell

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

Why would somebody use a Garmin Satnav to navigate while it is sitting on the passenger seat....rather than affixed to the front windscreen (like everyone else) ?
Even it was originally attached to the windscreen why would you then remove it and leave it on the seat for a while before switching it off ?

Surely almost every high-end Car which would be suitable for Limo work would have an inbuilt Satnav ?

Something's missing here .

My satnav cradle occasionally falls off the window. It's an older model and the suction cup is probably half dead. I can't afford to replace it right now but I do need to use it. I would look for a safe place to stick it back up; till then it would have to hang out in the passenger side seat because I don't want it to slide around the dashboard.

InsiderIreland

mgbgt1978 wrote: »

Why would somebody use a Garmin Satnav to navigate while it is sitting on the passenger seat....rather than affixed to the front windscreen (like everyone else) ?
Even it was originally attached to the windscreen why would you then remove it and leave it on the seat for a while before switching it off ?

Surely almost every high-end Car which would be suitable for Limo work would have an inbuilt Satnav ?

Something's missing here .

I not sure what point you are trying to make to be honest!

Yes, there is Sat Nav built into the car. BUT I use my own as it contains a database of locations I travel to. As I change cars frequently, it makes more sense to me than trying to operate and program a new Sat Nav every time I sit in a car.

The Garmin was held on the dashboard with a small, but very powerful magnet, along with a small metal strip that attaches to the back of the satnav.

The reason it was on the passenger seat was because it was night time, and as I had finished using it, the glare from the screen was distracting, so I took it off the dashboard mount and placed it on the seat. I ASSUME the Garda saw me hold SOMETHING in my hand as I did this, and PRESUMED it was a mobile phone. Same size, same light!


Absoultly

Marcusm

To honest, if you are glancing towards a sat nav on the passenger seat then I wouldn't advance that as a defence. The could lead to a charge of driving without due care and attention.

InsiderIreland

No, The Sat Nav was only on when it was attached to the dashboard. I lifted it from its holder, switched it off and placed it on the passenger seat. I do know where I'm going in Galway!

challengemaster

kceire wrote: »

If you can prove that you were nowhere near that road at that time surely you have a case for it to be struck out?

This would be the route I'd be taking. It's a problem that it's nearly a month later but if you can get your hands on the CCTV showing your vehicle pulled in and you're certain of the times.

FaganJr

Talk to a solicitor who deals with Knob Jockey Garda's abusing their powers.
Most people here have never been to court, taken legal advice or even drive in some cases!

Talk to a solicitor , grow a spine and stand up for yourself!

InsiderIreland

I have every intention of standing up for myself!

biko

You have started a thread in Legal Discussion too
As cross posting isn't allowed I am closing this thread.

Discussion can continue in http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=99126481