Garda escorting the Ticket inspectors on Luas.

The Caveman

On the green line this morning, the Garda was escorting the Ticket inspectors…

Would love to have asked them, why do they get an escort, and, in 5 years, of my wife taking the red line, not once was there any Garda on the luas, to protect paying passengers from certain passengers.

yes, now ticket inspectors, get there own protection...

mansize

The Gardai have been often waiting at Red Cow so they do serve both lines

thomasj

They do that on the Irish rail lines as well.

shepinaheap

The Caveman wrote: »

On the green line this morning, the Garda was escorting the Ticket inspectors…

Would love to have asked them, why do they get an escort, and, in 5 years, of my wife taking the red line, not once was there any Garda on the luas, to protect paying passengers from certain passengers.

yes, now ticket inspectors, get there own protection...

"Would love to have asked them" - I'm not having a go at you here, but why didn't you ask them? It was a perfectly valid question, you may have not got an answer or a proper one, but I'm curious as to why you would feel you couldn't ask a question like that

AlekSmart

The Caveman wrote: »

On the green line this morning, the Garda was escorting the Ticket inspectors…

Would love to have asked them, why do they get an escort, and, in 5 years, of my wife taking the red line, not once was there any Garda on the luas, to protect paying passengers from certain passengers.

yes, now ticket inspectors, get there own protection...

Have to contradict you there Caveman.

As a regular Red Line user,I've often seen Gardai operating with both,Ticket Checking Teams and STT Patrols.

Mostly it's to ensure positive identification of individuals who refuse to comply with Luas Bye-Laws and then act the jinnet when faced down.

If this policy is being ramped-up,then I'm all for it !!

thomasj

Arent the gardai the only ones with powers to physically remove someone should they refuse? So rather than call them when someone refuses and hold up the tram etc. Have them there with you to speed up time.

Waste of resources really, there should be transport police in place in this city.

munchkin_utd

thomasj wrote: »

<snip>
Waste of resources really, there should be transport police in place in this city.

+1

Public transport cannot be left to be a playground for scumbags.

ED E

thomasj wrote: »

Arent the gardai the only ones with powers to physically remove someone should they refuse? So rather than call them when someone refuses and hold up the tram etc. Have them there with you to speed up time.

Waste of resources really, there should be transport police in place in this city.

We don't have any large enough infrastructure other than the airport (which has its policing sorted) to warrant a new policing unit. Assigning regular Gardai on demand is the right way to do it.

thomasj

ED E wrote:

We don't have any large enough infrastructure other than the airport (which has its policing sorted) to warrant a new policing unit. Assigning regular Gardai on demand is the right way to do it.

We have a shortage of gardai on the streets as it is.

ED E

thomasj wrote: »

We have a shortage of gardai on the streets as it is.

Then spend the funding you would on a whole new organization on expanding the ranks. Not paying a whole new hierarchy.

BRYAN Is Ainm Dom

Why do we have a shortage of gardai on streets???? To many stuck in a office doing a job that a civilian could do and not to mention the sick rate of the gardai which is a complete joke.

The Caveman

shepinaheap wrote: »

"Would love to have asked them" - I'm not having a go at you here, but why didn't you ask them? It was a perfectly valid question, you may have not got an answer or a proper one, but I'm curious as to why you would feel you couldn't ask a question like that

the luas was packed, and, i was on a seat, and, they got on 1 carriage down

but, i could see, ticket inspectors asking for tickets, with Gardi following them, standing next to them

got off together few stops down.

AlekSmart

The Caveman wrote: »

the luas was packed, and, i was on a seat, and, they got on 1 carriage down

but, i could see, ticket inspectors asking for tickets, with Gardi following them, standing next to them

got off together few stops down.

A friend was in Portland Oregon last year and travelled on their commuter rail system.

She was stopped on two occasions by Portland Police Department officers and asked for her ticket...she reacted in a bemused manner and asked why Police were checking Train Tickets...

Cue an equally bemused reaction from Portland Policeman...."But Ma'm...the law says you've gotta have the correct ticket on the Railroad....and our job is to enforce the Law".....

Being of rural stock,she then asked me if we did that sorta thing up in Dublin.......kinda,sez I,before changing the subject

mahoganygas

Ticket inspectors have an awful job.
I've seen scumbags hurl abuse at them. Even seen one guy spit in an inspector's face.

I see nothing wrong with Gardai escorting them.

cdebru

mahoganygas wrote: »

Ticket inspectors have an awful job.
I've seen scumbags hurl abuse at them. Even seen one guy spit in an inspector's face.

I see nothing wrong with Gardai escorting them.

Ah it's open season on anyone associated with the luas apparently.

Infini

mahoganygas wrote: »

Ticket inspectors have an awful job.
I've seen scumbags hurl abuse at them. Even seen one guy spit in an inspector's face.

I see nothing wrong with Gardai escorting them.

Yeah it can be a nasty buisness the scumbags expecially tho theres times theyre required for those types who live up their holes and think theyre above paying a fine even when theyre completely in the wrong.

Theyre requesting the guards for occasional checks in part because its about verifying details but also because theres a few more hostile types around nowadays that want to win a free night in the drunk tank.

monument

There is no transport police, so I can't see any issue with Gardai backing up ticket inspectors.

If you want a transport police -- lobby for that. But there's no good reason not to have Gardai helping the ticket inspectors: I for one can't see much difference between Gardai policing streets and them policing a tram system on those streets.

Muahahaha

ED E wrote: »

We don't have any large enough infrastructure other than the airport (which has its policing sorted) to warrant a new policing unit. Assigning regular Gardai on demand is the right way to do it.

Disagree with this, policing is all about visibility and without visibility a message is sent to the scummers that if you act up on the Luas/Irish Rail then there is not much hope anything will come from it.

Gardai backing up ticket inspectors is akin to locking the stable door after the horse has bolted. If we had a pro-active transport police force rather than a reactive force the type of problems we hear about on public transport would never have manifested in the first place. Thats not a jibe at Gardai on the street, its aimed at Garda management in the Park who all but got rid of the idea of the Garda on the beat during the Celtic Tiger. There are exceptions such as the Gardai on mountain bikes but they're the exception to the rule of Gardai not being visible enough on the city streets. On public transport they are virtually invisible until and assault or robbery has actually taken place, then they're all over it.

Our police force is a re-active one that is no longer fit for purpose as a deterrent to criminal activity, instead they are constantly fighing the battle on crime after the event. We all saw what happened last week with CAB and Gardai seizing cars on the Kinahan gang, apparently worth €1m. This was their reaction to the Regency Hotel shootings and retaliations. Meanwhile Christy Kinahan is supposedly worth €800m and is likely laughing his head off at CAB seizing €1m worth of assets. The media made a huge kerfuffle of the raids but they were nothing in the grand scheme of things, Kinahan just suffered a modicum of leakage.

bk

ED E wrote: »

We don't have any large enough infrastructure other than the airport (which has its policing sorted) to warrant a new policing unit. Assigning regular Gardai on demand is the right way to do it.

Easy, fire all the useless ticket inspectors and security personal and use the money saved to finance a dedicated Transport Police service, just like in the UK.

Have Transport Police do ticket checking, security and arrest people when needs be.

The fact that we have ticket checkers who do no security work, security staff who don't check tickets and now they need Gardai to help them do their actual work is just a ridiculous duplication of work and terribly inefficient.

Having police check tickets and patrol public transport is the complete norm in the US and the UK also does the same with the Transport Police service their which is financed by the airports, British Rail, etc.

thomasj wrote: »

We have a shortage of gardai on the streets as it is.

I don't get why people say this!

People get assaulted and robbed on public transport almost every day, should the Gardai not be dealing with this crime?

Public transport is the one area where the majority of law abiding citizens are forced to stand shoulder to shoulder with criminal scum bags every day. At least on the street, if you see a scum bag, you can at least have some chance to avoid them by crossing the street, etc. No such luck on public transport.

I think the Gardai have their priorities completely wrong. They should be policing public transport first and foremost, with patrolling streets a secondary priority.

As for the drug gangs, etc. That requires a completely different type of policing and your regular uniformed street Garda wouldn't be involved in it at all. That requires intelligence and surveillance led policing, armed police units, CAB, etc. That is a different story all together and not relevant to this conversation.

spurious

I'd be fairly sure the type of dirt that abuse ticket inspectors and other passengers on the LUAS are also prone to a spot of petty and more serious ('the drugs made me do it/me Ma died/I'm doing a course') crimes against the person and property.

trellheim

Easy, fire all the useless ticket inspectors and security personal

Holy moly. What a misinformed comment. the black shirted security guards are absolutely critical at daytime city centre stops. Hang around at Jervis or Abbey for an hour or two

they perform a critical function at the moment. I rarely have seen such a comment that does not reflect reality on the ground.

Source : Jervis LUAS is right out the office window .

/shakes head in disbelief

bk

trellheim wrote: »

Holy moly. What a misinformed comment. the black shirted security guards are absolutely critical at daytime city centre stops. Hang around at Jervis or Abbey for an hour or two

they perform a critical function at the moment. I rarely have seen such a comment that does not reflect reality on the ground.

Source : Jervis LUAS is right out the office window .

/shakes head in disbelief

Now imagine how much more effect they would be if they were actually Gardai, with the power to arrest.

Obviously what I'm suggesting went right over your head. I'm suggesting getting rid of the security and ticket checkers and replacing them with an equal number of Transport Police, who carry out the same security and ticket checking duties, but in addition have the power to arrest people. Just like how it works in the US and UK.

The fact that you almost never see any Gardai around Jervis street where a lot of petty crime happens, is pretty damning of the Gardai. The NTA/Luas should not need to be hiring private security to "police" these places. What the hell do we have the Gardai for if not to police crime in public places!

trellheim

Now imagine how much more effect they would be if they were actually Gardai, with the power to arrest.

Obviously what I'm suggesting went right over your head. I'm suggesting getting rid of the security and ticket checkers and replacing them with an equal number of Transport Police, who carry out the same security and ticket checking duties, but in addition have the power to arrest people. Just like how it works in the US and UK.

I hope I did not pick up your point wrongly

There is a difference between private static ( or relatively so ) guards as opposed to a fully empowered transit police. In addition I doubt the current volume of STT with having them ( for example) having full powers of arrest would make any difference.

think for a moment; what possible difference would power of arrest make ? Lets assume you have it - you then get to bring them off to a station and do what precisely ? I put it to you that this is a large waste of time mostly as a deterrent .

You wil still need a bunch of the STT lads as a highly visible deterrent at most city centre stations - this is not the role of a transit police !

Terrontress

In order to make sure that transport police would not be diverted, it would have to be separate from the GS and not be able to have their resources reassigned in times of difficulty. Give the GS a transport wing and they'll end up standing in Temple Bar on a Saturday night, dealing with drunks.

bk

trellheim wrote: »

I hope I did not pick up your point wrongly

There is a difference between private static ( or relatively so ) guards as opposed to a fully empowered transit police. In addition I doubt the current volume of STT with having them ( for example) having full powers of arrest would make any difference.

think for a moment; what possible difference would power of arrest make ? Lets assume you have it - you then get to bring them off to a station and do what precisely ? I put it to you that this is a large waste of time mostly as a deterrent .

You wil still need a bunch of the STT lads as a highly visible deterrent at most city centre stations - this is not the role of a transit police !

No you don't.

If you have ever seen Transport Police operate in the US or UK, then you would know that they often operate in a similar static manner to private security.

They are often patrolling platforms and at ticket gates, no different to STT. Just their presence is usually more then enough to deter trouble. If things get seriously troublesome, then they can arrest people, however they don't normally leave the transport station. They usually just call for the police van to pick the person up and continue to patrol the station/platform. They do the paper work at the end of their shift.

As to what difference Gardai have over STT, that should be obvious. STT are pretty much useless and criminal types have little or no fear of them. Scum bags tend to be a lot more cautious around actual Gardai, with real authority.

After all that is exactly why the Gardai are now escorting ticket checkers and STT, because ticket checkers/STT they have so little authority.

Muahahaha

trellheim wrote: »

think for a moment; what possible difference would power of arrest make ? Lets assume you have it - you then get to bring them off to a station and do what precisely ? I put it to you that this is a large waste of time mostly as a deterrent .

You wil still need a bunch of the STT lads as a highly visible deterrent at most city centre stations - this is not the role of a transit police !

The thing is in order to make public transport safer the Gardai need to interrupt the lads who act up on the trams and trains. If that means hauling them to a station and wasting two or three hours of their day banged up in a cell then so be it. They'll soon think twice about acting up the next time if there is an actual deterrent in place.

Back in the late 90's New York had a huge problem on their subway with petty crime and wide scale fare evasion by passengers hopping the barriers in stations. They solved that problem by having the police interrupt the day of the lads doing this. So even if they had only skipped on a $2 fare the police would still bang them up for a few hours before charging them. Pretty quickly the message got out that the police were taking a zero tolerance approach and pretty quick all the anti social problems of the New York subway disappeared.

trellheim

I take your point - but theres no appetite for the huge funding you want for that just to bang up troublemakers for a day or so - which we don't really tend to do for street guards anyway ; STT do 95% of what you want IMHO at a much lower price as far as I can tell . I think randoms with AGS are probably as good as you will get

Terrontress

Could capacity be increased? If we can promote a safer environment upon public transport, or at least the feeling of one, people will be less inclined to use their cars, more passengers, more income, more money to pay transport cops.

There is no point in a visible policing on an 8am or 5.30 DART. Transport police would still have a role for ticket checking, pickpockets, even people using the railway to transport contraband. If I had wanted to smuggle a gun up north, I'd take it on the train from Connolly to Portadown, buy my first class's ticket and smile at the train manager when showing it to him.

Have there ever been instances of criminals using public transport to move contraband being caught at it?

trellheim

Have there ever been instances of criminals using public transport to move contraband being caught at it?

it used to be fun watching the dealers and users meet up outside Tara St dart

paul71

BRYAN Is Ainm Dom wrote: »

Why do we have a shortage of gardai on streets???? To many stuck in a office doing a job that a civilian could do and not to mention the sick rate of the gardai which is a complete joke.

Are you seriously questioning the sick rate of gardai? These men and women as part of their daily routine are being rammed by stolen cars, shoot at, assaulted, stabbed with drug users needles, kicked by animals when clearing from rodes, jumping into rivers to rescue people amoung a host of other riskes.