Presidential Coach

The Chieftain

What happened to the Presidential coach?
The last several inhabitants of the Aras have all been Green-tinged, so one might have expected them to make use of trains, so as to set an example. But the reverse has happened - modern Presidents of Ireland use the train less than ever before!

flyingsnail

The MK 2 Presidential coach is currently stored at RPSI Whitehead awaiting the fitting of secondary door locking and it will then be used with the RPSI Mk 2 set.

goingnowhere

The Chieftain wrote: »

What happened to the Presidential coach?
The last several inhabitants of the Aras have all been Green-tinged, so one might have expected them to make use of trains, so as to set an example. But the reverse has happened - modern Presidents of Ireland use the train less than ever before!

5408 is in the care of the RPSI. Michael D Higgins has traveled by train since taking office, normal Mk4.

Mary McAleese managed to be travel on 351, 5408 and the Mk3 exec set while in office

savagethegoat

what's green about having a Presidential Coach?

Great for international prestige were it used to ferry important official vistors around on State Visits but hardly green.

It seems to have gone by the board now anyway, couldn't have suffered a better fate than being in RPSIs care.

Del.Monte

savagethegoat wrote: »

what's green about having a Presidential Coach?

Great for international prestige were it used to ferry important official vistors around on State Visits but hardly green.

It seems to have gone by the board now anyway, couldn't have suffered a better fate than being in RPSIs care.

You know, using the railway rather than a helicopter or garda driven limo - leading by example. :rolleyes:

ClovenHoof

Anyone else find it both ironic and funny that the Irish Presidential coach is held hostage behind enemy lines?

end of the road

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Anyone else find it both ironic and funny that the Irish Presidential coach is held hostage behind enemy lines?

indeed but at least by it being preserved there it's safe from the southern irish mentality of
"if it's not the gaa or it wasn't found in a bog in bally go muck savage it's worth nothing"

The Chieftain

Tanks to everyone for the updates and info. It may be a long while before we see another Presidential or State coach.

12Phase

Del.Monte wrote: »

You know, using the railway rather than a helicopter or garda driven limo - leading by example. :rolleyes:

I'd say putting the president into a modern Merc, probably with A rated CO2 output would be massively greener than running a special train.

There isn't really any way of connecting a presidential coach to most intercity trains currently in use here. So, you would need you run it in its own with a 201 and a generator car probably too.

Then you've got the problem that the rail network doesn't cover the whole country and you could need a car at the location anyway. That would have to, in most cases, be driven there anyway, so you might as well just put the president into it.

Realistically, certainly with Ireland's setup, using rail for that kind of VIP transport isn't feasible.

Also remember that the main concern on those kinds of things is security and flexibility, not really luxury.

They use Mercs and similar cars, but they're not exactly what you would call a limo by any stretch of the imagination.

Trains, especially diesel, are only greener because they can carry a lot of people per litre of diesel burned. If you reduce that ratio, they can suddenly look anything but green.

The Chieftain

12Phase wrote: »

I'd say putting the president into a modern Merc, probably with A rated CO2 output would be massively greener than rubbing a special train.

There isn't really any way of connecting a presidential coach to most intercity trains currently in use here. So, you would need you run it in its own with a 201 and a generator car probably too.

Then you've got the problem that the rail network doesn't cover the whole country and you could need a car at the location anyway. That would have to, in most cases, be driven there anyway, so you might as well just put the president into it.

Realistically, certainly with Ireland's setup, using rail for that kind of VIP transport isn't feasible.

Also remember that the main concern on those kinds of things is security and flexibility, not really luxury.

They use Mercs and similar cars, but they're not exactly what you would call a limo by any stretch of the imagination.

Trains, especially diesel, are only greener because they can carry a lot of people per litre of diesel burned. If you reduce that ratio, they can suddenly look anything but green.

You miss the aspect that using the train sets an example of using public transport. It also avoids the disruptive effect of "peasants out of the way", which occurs when presidential motorcades have the road cleared for them...

12Phase

The Chieftain wrote: »

You miss the aspect that using the train sets an example of using public transport. It also avoids the disruptive effect of "peasants out of the way", which occurs when presidential motorcades have the road cleared for them...

Have you actually seen the president being moved around?

There's very little "peasants out of the way" attitude and normally a very low key operation. They're just driven to wherever they're going and that's pretty much it.

It's Michael D, not Barack Obama.

Also, if you've a serious security risk, they'd have to clear the way in train stations too.

If it's a special service you could also be disrupting scheduled trains.

I can't think of anything more elitist than a private coach though on a train. It's a bit of a throw back to the British Royal Train concept.

Grand, Victorian VIP transport.

savagethegoat

The Chieftain wrote: »

You miss the aspect that using the train sets an example of using public transport. It also avoids the disruptive effect of "peasants out of the way", which occurs when presidential motorcades have the road cleared for them...

and you miss the point that a dedicated coach cannot be added to any of the trains in use today. Fine , encourage the guy to travel by scheduled service, but a Presidential Coach is a concept that is now impossible unless it ran independently and that definitely isn't Green.

12Phase

I have no idea what the fuel consumption and CO2/km output of a 201 locomotive and a generator car would be, but I doubt it's small.

Trains need volume of people to be environmentally friendly (unless you're running off renewable energy via electricity, which we aren't).

If you don't have the volumes of people, they're no less CO2 emitting than any other engine-powered vehicle, and actually could be worse.

There's one major reason for the 22000s - I would wager they're vastly more fuel and carbon efficient than running short locomotive hauled trains.
I would also argue that's why we should only use the MK4 on the Cork-Dublin route where it's likely to be reliably full.

Captain Chaos

12Phase wrote: »

There's one major reason for the 22000s - I would wager they're vastly more fuel and carbon efficient than running short locomotive hauled trains.
I would also argue that's why we should only use the MK4 on the Cork-Dublin route where it's likely to be reliably full.

DMUs are only more efficient for short trains of 5 or less. Once you go 6 and up they are generally equal to a loco hauled train.

An 8 car 29k DMU actually has higher fuel consumption than a 201 hauling an 8 coach train. The 22s should be better seeing as they have more modern emission controlled power units.

12Phase

I'd suspect the 22000s are probably pretty efficient.

The 201 locos are not exactly cutting edge technology anymore either, having been delivered 21 years ago at this stage.
I would suspect the MTU built power packs on the 22000s are pretty decent tech.

It'd be interesting to see some actual stats on the whole fleet. I've never seen them released.

The 8 car 29k carries a lot more passengers per km though as in theory it should be a commuter train vs an intercity.

end of the road

12Phase wrote: »

I would also argue that's why we should only use the MK4 on the Cork-Dublin route where it's likely to be reliably full.

the mk4 is only used on the cork line though. and even at that some sets are out of use still i think?

tabbey

If the president was to travel to Cork, he would be driven from the Phoenix Park to Heuston Station in an S class Mercedes which would then run empty stock to Glanmire Road or Kent, whatever they now call Cork City station.

While on board the train, the president would presumably have to occupy seating in a Mk IV or ICR, where he might be persecuted by autograph hunters, or worse. He certainly could not compose or rehearse a speech. The only way to avoid this would be to reserve a full coach.

The accommodation in an ICR, is hardly presidential, even premier class is only standard class seating, with slightly more salubrious fellow travellers.

Regarding the good old days of 351, in the late 1960s, when the trains to the west departed from Westland Row / Pearse, I rode my bike up the carriage ramp, ( where TCD biomedical building is now), parked it, then approached the two sets of double doors to access the concourse. I entered one of the doors and found myself walking up a red carpet, cordoned off by ropes. I was tempted to continue on the red carpet, but expected that I would have been removed before I reached 351, which of course was on the train for de Valera travelling to Galway. Therefore I crouched under the rope, and returned to peasant class.

Vic_08

tabbey wrote: »

If the president was to travel to Cork, he would be driven from the Phoenix Park to Heuston Station in an S class Mercedes which would then run empty stock to Glanmire Road or Kent, whatever they now call Cork City station.

While on board the train, the president would presumably have to occupy seating in a Mk IV or ICR, where he might be persecuted by autograph hunters, or worse. He certainly could not compose or rehearse a speech. The only way to avoid this would be to reserve a full coach.

The accommodation in an ICR, is hardly presidential, even premier class is only standard class seating, with slightly more salubrious fellow travellers.

Queenie regularly travels on in-service outer suburban units from London to Kings Lynn when going to Sandringham in Norfolk. Nothing Royal about those yokes.

12Phase

Vic_08 wrote: »

Queenie regularly travels on in-service outer suburban units from London to Kings Lynn when going to Sandringham in Norfolk. Nothing Royal about those yokes.

Only with MI5/6 and clearing part of a coach.
It also results in huge security operations at stations.

It's mostly a PR exercise for "the people's queen" and so on.

savagethegoat

12Phase wrote: »

It's mostly a PR exercise for "the people's queen" and so on.

well if that truly is what it is, then it is badly thought out as she travels first class.

12Phase

Yeah but Queeie is on a whole other level of celebrity status to the point or near cultlike adoration.

I'm not going to critique the British monarchy but to me it's a very odd concept in the modern context of what's otherwise a very liberal, modern and democratic society.

Seeing the queen in a public train, even first class, tends to get some people very excited as she's stepped outside the bubble.

I don't think Ireland needs the pomp and ceremony of a presidential train. The whole concept of a president is he or she is one of us. We've just elected them as our top representative for a fixed term.

I've met two Irish presidents out shopping and sat beside a former Taoiseach in economy class on a flight and had a great old chat and I think that's a very good thing and and how it should be.

When you start putting people on huge pedestals you create huge class divisions.

afatbollix

They also have a fleet of Security land rovers at each palace for the Queen so they dont need to drive up 10 land rovers each time she takes the train.

I visited one last year and they are all sat in a shed fueled up polished ready to go at a moments notice.

They do reserve the whole carriage and she now has a new entrance at Kings Lynn station so she can go from car to train.

If I was a green president I would use the normal train and just use a unmarked police car at the other end. But if its easier just to drive because of security I would be taking the easier option.

12Phase

You'd be accused of wasting valuable and scarce Garda resources. I guarantee it!

That's why VIP transport is a separate service.

Del.Monte

So, it would be quite impossible to have one set or even carriage specially tarted up for Presidential/VIP/Business use. The lot of you should apply for jobs with CIE - you're of the same mindset of can't, shan't and won't. And I wonder why I bother posting in this forum much anymore. :rolleyes:

12Phase

It would be a massive waste of money and it would have to be a 22000 set.

Del.Monte

12Phase wrote: »

It would be a massive waste of money and it would have to be a 22000 set.

That's what I love about the C&T Forum - lots of bland, negative, opinionated statements with nothing to back them up.

seagoebox

ClovenHoof wrote: »

Anyone else find it both ironic and funny that the Irish Presidential coach is held hostage behind enemy lines?

Can you please explain "behind enemy lines"

ted1

The Chieftain wrote: »

You miss the aspect that using the train sets an example of using public transport. It also avoids the disruptive effect of "peasants out of the way", which occurs when presidential motorcades have the road cleared for them...

Public transport and a presidential coach ? That's siily talk. If anything it's the opposite showing how bad the public system is that we need a special coach

12Phase

Del.Monte wrote: »

That's what I love about the C&T Forum - lots of bland, negative, opinionated statements with nothing to back them up.

Thanks!

I won't bother posting again. Better things to be doing with my time than dealing with insulting comments.

savagethegoat

12Phase wrote: »

Thanks!

I won't bother posting again. Better things to be doing with my time than dealing with insulting comments.

Take no notice, no one else does

whisky_galore

Del.Monte wrote: »

So, it would be quite impossible to have one set or even carriage specially tarted up for Presidential/VIP/Business use. The lot of you should apply for jobs with CIE - you're of the same mindset of can't, shan't and won't. And I wonder why I bother posting in this forum much anymore. :rolleyes:

They already have this, it's called Citygold class...

A set deep cleaned and run for VIPs I don't have a problem with, as long as the VIP and not the taxpayer pays for it.

A dedicated set that hangs around most of the time, taking up space and not earning its keep, I don't see the point.

Del.Monte

whisky_galore wrote: »

They already have this, it's called Citygold class...

A set deep cleaned and run for VIPs I don't have a problem with, as long as the VIP and not the taxpayer pays for it.

A dedicated set that hangs around most of the time, taking up space and not earning its keep, I don't see the point.

I'm not talking about a Citygold type coach but a boardroom type coach similar to the one that NIR used to operate - suitable for business meetings/presentations. It could double for VIP use with a simple change of furnishings, but CIE don't do innovative just continuous retrenchment.

GM228

Del.Monte wrote: »

I'm not talking about a Citygold type coach but a boardroom type coach similar to the one that NIR used to operate - suitable for business meetings/presentations. It could double for VIP use with a simple change of furnishings, but CIE don't do innovative just continuous retrenchment.

The Belmond set will be ideal for this and may become available for such private hire off-season.

savagethegoat

the costs would be huge and the benefits would need to be substantial to offset these. Unless the benefits are large enough to cover the costs, then IE and it's passengers would be better off if it concentrated on an improved network.

Del.Monte

savagethegoat wrote: »

the costs would be huge and the benefits would need to be substantial to offset these. Unless the benefits are large enough to cover the costs, then IE and it's passengers would be better off if it concentrated on an improved network.

What are these huge costs of which you speak so knowledgeably?

Del.Monte

GM228 wrote: »

The Belmond set will be ideal for this and may become available for such private hire off-season.

That's most unlikely and far more than is required.

GM228

Del.Monte wrote: »

That's most unlikely and far more than is required.

The size dosn't matter as the train can easily be shortened as required.

Vic_08

Del.Monte wrote: »

I'm not talking about a Citygold type coach but a boardroom type coach similar to the one that NIR used to operate - suitable for business meetings/presentations. It could double for VIP use with a simple change of furnishings, but CIE don't do innovative just continuous retrenchment.

That isn't innovative it would be a gross misuse of public money.

Del.Monte wrote: »

What are these huge costs of which you speak so knowledgeably?

Having a hypothetical VIP coach fitted out and kept in operational condition for irregular use would cost a considerable sum.

That is ignoring the fact that the railcars could not take an extra coach slotted in and even the remaining loco-hauled services run as fixed formation push-pull sets.

postitnote

:pac::pac:

Small and easy to maintain, get it back from Downpatrick, give it a lick of paint and Bob's your uncle!

Source: http://www.geograph.ie/photo/622526

Del.Monte

Vic_08 wrote: »

That isn't innovative it would be a gross misuse of public money.

Having a hypothetical VIP coach fitted out and kept in operational condition for irregular use would cost a considerable sum.

That is ignoring the fact that the railcars could not take an extra coach slotted in and even the remaining loco-hauled services run as fixed formation push-pull sets.

In terms of all the gross misuses of money by CIE/IE down the years (e.g. mini-ctc, 201 class locos, premature scrapping of MkIIIs) the fitting out of a carriage for VIP/business use would be small potatoes.

savagethegoat

an extra small potato on top of the wasted huge potatoes is still an extra potato and one too many, rather than encourage further waste, we should be encouraging them to make better use of existing potatoes

whisky_galore

Del.Monte wrote: »

I'm not talking about a Citygold type coach but a boardroom type coach similar to the one that NIR used to operate - suitable for business meetings/presentations. It could double for VIP use with a simple change of furnishings, but CIE don't do innovative just continuous retrenchment.

Why did NIR discontinue its use?

Del.Monte

whisky_galore wrote: »

Why did NIR discontinue its use?

I was out of the country when it was discontinued and I'm not even sure of the year. The last time that I traveled in it would have been on an ITG tour up north - I seem to remember that NIR used to charge for half a dozen 1st class fares plus £100 for its use. It wasn't a full carriage - could have been part of a MkIIb Brake/Generator van - it was a long time ago. I've always thought that NIR made more of their slender resources and miniscule network than CIE have of theirs.

GM228

whisky_galore wrote: »

Why did NIR discontinue its use?

Due to unreliability, it spent more time in the depot being fixed than working the Portrush branch.

AFAIK it still is owned by NIR whilst on long term loan to the DCDR. It certainly was still on NIRs books in 2000 when it came out of Cultra before heading to the DCDR.

Del.Monte wrote: »

I was out of the country when it was discontinued and I'm not even sure of the year.

RB3 was officially "stored" in December 1992, but hadn't actually worked for several months before then. A year later it went to Cultra on long term loan as NIR had no use for it.

Prior to it going to the DCDR NIR considered using it for a Lisburn-Antrim shuttle when the Bleach Green line opened but this idea was quickly abandoned and the loan to the DCDR went ahead.

Del.Monte

whisky_galore was referring to my post about the NIR business MkII not RB3.

GM228

Del.Monte wrote: »

whisky_galore was referring to my post about the NIR business MkII not RB3.

Sorry just realised that! Still a bit of history there about RB3!

dowlingm

Amtrak have a one off conference car (Metroliner cab car 9800) which appears every so often on charters for baseball teams and the like.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-MlHS_FtVos

Given that Mk4 sets are stored at present, is it feasible to run 2 x First in the same set by borrowing one, to cover a VIP/Presidential booking without requiring the downgrading of the train proper to economy only?