British friesen herd has the highest ebi !!!

cute geoge

Very interesting article in the farming indo last tuesday on pat flynn high ebi herd
The jest of it he has bred his herd from purchased british fr.bulls and only used a.i. in the last few years.He maintains he not too fond of a.i. as 'you cant see what the mothers really looked like and you cant see what kind of a diet she was producing her volume from'
It is amazing that we can not implement this sound man advice and produce proper british fr. cattle instead of clogging up marts with worthless bull calves.
He has several bulls in a.i. but no details on them ,can anyone tell where these bulls are

jaymla627

cute geoge wrote: »

Very interesting article in the farming indo last tuesday on pat flynn high ebi herd
The jest of it he has bred his herd from purchased british fr.bulls and only used a.i. in the last few years.He maintains he not too fond of a.i. as 'you cant see what the mothers really looked like and you cant see what kind of a diet she was producing her volume from'
It is amazing that we can not implement this sounded man advice and produce proper british fr. cattle instead of clogging up marts with worthless bull calves.
He has several bulls in a.i. but no details on them ,can anyone tell where these bulls are

Was a sketchy article to say the least with lots of high bf/pr figures being talked about but no talk of litres a cow per year/solids produced....
Major problem with British fr cows are type and out crosses which he brought up himself

Timmaay

jaymla627 wrote: »

Was a sketchy article to say the least with lots of high bf/pr figures being talked about but no talk of litres a cow per year/solids produced....
Major problem with British fr cows are type and out crosses which he brought up himself

Quoting an old article on him here:

Pat’s herd last year milk recorded 1,600 gals (7,200 litres) with delivered solids at 4.24% fat and 3.83% protein. This year the milk recording suggests the herd will produce 1,481 gallons (6,700 litres) at 4.17% fat and 3.82% protein

http://www.farmersjournal.ie/friesian-herd-jumps-13-to-number-one-on-ebi-168219/

"milk recorded". Knock of at least 500l for the delivered average?

cute geoge

What i took from the article cows are not pampered yet one cow was on her 12 th lacation ,now tell me how many holsteins, kiwi jerseys will make it beyond 6 lacations.
I surely think br. fr are more suitable for cross breding then kiwi or jersey for a low cost system.

Milked out

cute geoge wrote: »

What i took from the article cows are not pampered yet one cow was on her 12 th lacation ,now tell me how many holsteins, kiwi jerseys will make it beyond 6 lacations.
I surely think br. fr are more suitable for cross breding then kiwi or jersey for a low cost system.

Every farm has a cow doing that, culled 14 yr old hol last year, 12 lactation and over 3000kg of protein in her lifetime. Daughters comfortable in their 7th and 9th lactations. If he had a good percentage of the herd doing a good number of lactations then fair enough but every fella will have a couple that keep on going

welton john

Sure nealry every herd in the country is british friesan.
Every one selling a calf on done deal is from b/f and everyone buying calves bought them from 'good square bf cows'

jaymla627

Milked out wrote: »

Every farm has a cow doing that, culled 14 yr old hol last year, 12 lactation and over 3000kg of protein in her lifetime. Daughters comfortable in their 7th and 9th lactations. If he had a good percentage of the herd doing a good number of lactations then fair enough but every fella will have a couple that keep on going

Stock bull here that's since departed grandmother and great grandmother both done 10 lactations with them doing 4224 kgs/3510 kgs of protein respectively and both where diamond award cows, always easy to rave about the good ones but it's the average of the herd that's the best indicator....
Would love to have a look at his co-op report and see what the proper figures are could be messaging his milk recorded figures a nice bit since he is selling stock bulls

cute geoge

His br.herd is up there with the tops of the crossbred herds anyway before we start delving into his co-op statements.
Surely a br,fr bull cross on a holstein is a better bet then jersey or kiwi is what i am trying to get at when you can get them to milk as well as either.Should there be more emphisis on breding more milky br,fr by a.i. companies

Wildsurfer

I know the herd in question and all I will say is don't believe everything you read in the papers and as for his statement that he has met crooks in his day... Pot. Kettle. Black.

jaymla627

cute geoge wrote: »

His br.herd is up there with the tops of the crossbred herds anyway before we start delving into his co-op statements.
Surely a br,fr bull cross on a holstein is a better bet then jersey or kiwi is what i am trying to get at when you can get them to milk as well as either.Should there be more emphisis on breding more milky br,fr by a.i. companies

As a breed br/fr have never been breed for high production, all br/fr here get plus 400 kgs milk high type hols bulls and you do end up with a super cow.
lads going down the jr/kiwi route are looking for a more lighter/compact cow that will suit long walks and grass based systems, this is why their more popular for the bigger herds as opposed to br/fr

quader

Wildsurfer wrote: »

I know the herd in question and all I will say is don't believe everything you read in the papers and as for his statement that he has met crooks in his day... Pot. Kettle. Black.

Never a truer word spoken

mahoney_j

quader wrote: »

Never a truer word spoken

Look it's the top ebi herd in country and consistently so .never there but know a fair bit about herd .he has top class genetics and the fact that it's from predominantly stock Bulls and br freisan backrounds and no je blood makes it even more interesting .thats what interests me .sometimes the begrudging and looking down the nose of success in this country astounds me .one thing that did surprise me is that he dosnt want more of his Bulls entering Ai and that he is able to turn down 10 k for Bulls .

atlantic mist

was talking to one of our old customers for heifers, he got 20k for a calf this year off one of the ai companies, spent the morning getting onto the father for selling her:)

might have to throwing a few nz fr on them after hearing that

6270red

mahoney_j wrote: »

Look it's the top ebi herd in country and consistently so .never there but know a fair bit about herd .he has top class genetics and the fact that it's from predominantly stock Bulls and br freisan backrounds and no je blood makes it even more interesting .thats what interests me .sometimes the begrudging and looking down the nose of success in this country astounds me .one thing that did surprise me is that he dosnt want more of his Bulls entering Ai and that he is able to turn down 10 k for Bulls .

Your right, this guy has being top of the Ebi list for nearly three years. Begrudging about this achievement is very small minded. This guy is milking 60 cows he should be held up as a example for all of us, all done with stock bulls too which amazes me.
Seen his cows and they are no way small either.
If he had 500 cows and feed them no nuts everyone on here would think his the best farmer in Ireland.

quader

Its not begrudgery ask his neighbour's or anyone that had anything to do with him

friesian13

go into icbf bullsearch and type in coolmohan.

mahoney_j

quader wrote: »

Its not begrudgery ask his neighbour's or anyone that had anything to do with him

That I don't give a fook about as I neither know or want to know anything about it .im interested in his cows ,genetics used and how he manages things

Wildsurfer

mahoney_j wrote: »

Look it's the top ebi herd in country and consistently so .never there but know a fair bit about herd .he has top class genetics and the fact that it's from predominantly stock Bulls and br freisan backrounds and no je blood makes it even more interesting .thats what interests me .sometimes the begrudging and looking down the nose of success in this country astounds me .one thing that did surprise me is that he dosnt want more of his Bulls entering Ai and that he is able to turn down 10 k for Bulls .

Its not begrudery J its knowing some facts. And I would be first to say given the location and size of the farm what he is achieving in bull sales alone would put put most lads profit margins in the ha'penny place. But if you had cows milking from his bulls that turn out to be the lowest ebi in your herd you start to ask questions especially when you've forked out top dollar for the privilege.

mahoney_j

Wildsurfer wrote: »

Its not begrudery J its knowing some facts. And I would be first to say given the location and size of the farm what he is achieving in bull sales alone would put put most lads profit margins in the ha'penny place. But if you had cows milking from his bulls that turn out to be the lowest ebi in your herd you start to ask questions especially when you've forked out top dollar for the privilege.

That could just be down to your cows genetics :ebi been low /poor to start with ,no offence .i wouldn't doubt the Bulls genetics or figures for production if he has been geno tested .if your concerned test the bull yourself but I'd seriously doubt a guy like that with Bulls in Ai and public profile as a top ebi herd would be pulling strokes there

keep going

friesian13 wrote: »

go into icbf bullsearch and type in coolmohan.

In fairness it is difficult to reconcile the bull figures with the production figures

alps

Milked out wrote: »

Every farm has a cow doing that, culled 14 yr old hol last year, 12 lactation and over 3000kg of protein in her lifetime. Daughters comfortable in their 7th and 9th lactations. If he had a good percentage of the herd doing a good number of lactations then fair enough but every fella will have a couple that keep on going

You've pointed out the obvious MO....Cow families. ..multiple lactation mothers, multiple lactation daughters..

This is the real reliability.....Any ai bull you intend to use, check that the dam and grand dam have multiple lactations without slippage...if not simply pass on.

It's such a simple check for something that has such a significant effect on your herd..

Bass Reeves

Using a stock bull could be worth over 20 days in milk on an average herd. Multiply that by the numbers of litres/day a cow produces could increase your EBI nicely.

Milked out

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Using a stock bull could be worth over 20 days in milk on an average herd. Multiply that by the numbers of litres/day a cow produces could increase your EBI nicely.

How is that?

Bass Reeves

Milked out wrote: »

How is that?

No matter how good you are at AI a fertile active bull will beat you all the time. I know of a lad who had an issue with calving spread a bull tightened it from over 30 % calving after April 1 and a high empty rate to a virtual spread of 6 weeks with one empty in 40 cows.

bogman_bass

I Thought the statement that he didnt want too many of his bulls in AI an odd one to make

Milked out

Bass Reeves wrote: »

No matter how good you are at AI a fertile active bull will beat you all the time. I know of a lad who had an issue with calving spread a bull tightened it from over 30 % calving after April 1 and a high empty rate to a virtual spread of 6 weeks with one empty in 40 cows.

Doreen would disagree with you there. Obviously a person would want to be at the top of their game with ai but I'd put it also that a stock bull being at optimum performance for the duration of a season isn't always guaranteed either. In your case above was there much culling associated with the improvement?

alps

bogman_bass wrote: »

I Thought the statement that he didnt want too many of his bulls in AI an odd one to make

Spoke to him a number of years back before any bull went to AI, and his feeling was (right or wrong) that if you want his genetics, you buy from him. This approach is protected vehemently by the racehorse industry to incredible effect.
Think he finally gave in and left a bull into genus but caught offside when a bull that was bought from him was used on a herd of heifers and subsequently was sold to AI. Created a bit of a stir and I now k ow that guys are protecting their interests here by vaccinating bulls for ibr before they leave the yard so will never be acceptable to AI..

Future Farmer

What's his Production Sub-Index?

friesian13 wrote: »

go into icbf bullsearch and type in coolmohan.

Ye, he has 5 bulls with AI codes:

CXW - EBI 257 - PSI 22 - FERT 196 - 2009
OZG - EBI 288 - PSI 21 - FERT 214 - 2013
RBJ - EBI 201 - PSI 19 - FERT 167 - 2010
RNC - EBI 224 - PSI -4 - FERT 194 - 2012
RRB - EBI 141 - PSI 4 - FERT 118 - 2009

Who would use them?

Looking at most popular Dairy bulls in 2014 in the "ICBF Beef Breeding Journal 2015-16":

LHZ sired 25175 calves, the top 10 Br Fr bulls added together sired 24590, and if LHZ had of produced more, more would have been sold!

Also if you add the top 10 Jersey's, Montbeliardes, Norwegian Reds & MRIs together they had 16089 calves registered.

Would most of you agree that Br Fr's are a small breed at this stage?

Bass Reeves

Milked out wrote: »

Doreen would disagree with you there. Obviously a person would want to be at the top of their game with ai but I'd put it also that a stock bull being at optimum performance for the duration of a season isn't always guaranteed either. In your case above was there much culling associated with the improvement?

Virtually no culling. When using AI this lad had used 18-20 straws. From that he had 7 bulls on the ground 1 heifer and a free martin pair. following year using the bull he had 10 heifers on the ground and all his cows calving in Feb/March with well over half. 12 months later over 70% calved in February and over 12 Fresian heifers on the ground.

Now the thing is he went back to AI after this as an expert advised him this was not a good breeding policy. When he did he scanned the cows in August to discover 10-12 empty cows. he was lucky that he had so many heifers from the bull coming on stream. Because he bought a high EBI bull he is very happy with them and I think he is buying a bull again. He was using an AI technician from one of the AI companies.

Milked out

Bass Reeves wrote: »

Virtually no culling. When using AI this lad had used 18-20 straws. From that he had 7 bulls on the ground 1 heifer and a free martin pair. following year using the bull he had 10 heifers on the ground and all his cows calving in Feb/March with well over half. 12 months later over 70% calved in February and over 12 Fresian heifers on the ground.

Now the thing is he went back to AI after this as an expert advised him this was not a good breeding policy. When he did he scanned the cows in August to discover 10-12 empty cows. he was lucky that he had so many heifers from the bull coming on stream. Because he bought a high EBI bull he is very happy with them and I think he is buying a bull again. He was using an AI technician from one of the AI companies.

It's the submission rates are most likely the issue. Not picking them up or not picking them up on time for the tech. Submission is most important thing in Ai. Paint, vasectomied bull whatever aids available should be used. Dad used to be very good at picking up the silent heats in the parlour. Observation a number of times a day is a big advantage too assuming not part time.

Edit as forgot to add if it's the same tech both years no harm to change him as well, paying for it you should get the option to rule out all possibilities

Bass Reeves

Milked out wrote: »

It's the submission rates are most likely the issue. Not picking them up or not picking them up on time for the tech. Submission is most important thing in Ai. Paint, vasectomied bull whatever aids available should be used. Dad used to be very good at picking up the silent heats in the parlour. Observation a number of times a day is a big advantage too assuming not part time.

Edit as forgot to add if it's the same tech both years no harm to change him as well, paying for it you should get the option to rule out all possibilities

I think his main issue was the AI tech always called in the afternoon. So he could spot a cow early in the evening and she would no be served until 20 hours later. However on the other hand it shows how a bull could change his milk output without any improvement in breeding. He was also using a vasectomised bull

Milked out

Bass Reeves wrote: »

I think his main issue was the AI tech always called in the afternoon. So he could spot a cow early in the evening and she would no be served until 20 hours later. However on the other hand it shows how a bull could change his milk output without any improvement in breeding. He was also using a vasectomised bull

Yeah I wouldn't be in favour of that then there are lads here who ai once a day and find no issue with it. I do diy ai here so have served cows from 7 in morn to 10 at night when the cows are in. I would insist on the tech having morn and evening calls. If the bulls are working for him and he can source good ones who are genotyped there's nothing wrong with it, he can always ai the odd cow if he wants as well.

whelan2

Milked out wrote: »

Yeah I wouldn't be in favour of that then there are lads here who ai once a day and find no issue with it. I do diy ai here so have served cows from 7 in morn to 10 at night when the cows are in. I would insist on the tech having morn and evening calls. If the bulls are working for him and he can source good ones who are genotyped there's nothing wrong with it, he can always ai the odd cow if he wants as well.

Just morning calls here, an odd one will be served again the next day if still showing signs of heat. Works fine.

st1979

Remember being at a teagasc walk years ago and ai vs bull came up. Basically you were a fool to use a bull because at the time best bulls in ai were over €100 ebi but stock bulls were near 0.
At the time I was all ai and believed most of the talk. But they were using statistics to prove one point of view.
Ebi was only out a short time. And most farmers at that time would of bought a stock bull from a good Holstein breeder who generally were liquid herds and focused on milk kgs. But there was no focus on getting farmers to buy High ebi bulls from good spring milk farms. And the effect that might have on the herd.
Submission is the big problem with ai and yes its the farmers fault. But billy the bull is far better at it than I.
So for me who admits my submission rates were not great how much extra is dumping ai worth. If I got 15% less empty cows during the breeding season. Plus 1-2 hours a day less work at a busy time of year incl Sundays.

whelan2

st1979 wrote: »

Remember being at a teagasc walk years ago and ai vs bull came up. Basically you were a fool to use a bull because at the time best bulls in ai were over €100 ebi but stock bulls were near 0.
At the time I was all ai and believed most of the talk. But they were using statistics to prove one point of view.
Ebi was only out a short time. And most farmers at that time would of bought a stock bull from a good Holstein breeder who generally were liquid herds and focused on milk kgs. But there was no focus on getting farmers to buy High ebi bulls from good spring milk farms. And the effect that might have on the herd.
Submission is the big problem with ai and yes its the farmers fault. But billy the bull is far better at it than I.
So for me who admits my submission rates were not great how much extra is dumping ai worth. If I got 15% less empty cows during the breeding season. Plus 1-2 hours a day less work at a busy time of year incl Sundays.

last bull i bought the seller texted me 8 tag numbers, I looked them up on icbf and picked the 2 that I was interested in. Then I picked from the 2 when I went to look at them, good ebi good solids, mother was still around . He also has a short gestation and added to the fact heat detection wears me out after a few weeks a stock bull is a winner here for cleaning up

farmertipp

mahoney_j wrote: »

Look it's the top ebi herd in country and consistently so .never there but know a fair bit about herd .he has top class genetics and the fact that it's from predominantly stock Bulls and br freisan backrounds and no je blood makes it even more interesting .thats what interests me .sometimes the begrudging and looking down the nose of success in this country astounds me .one thing that did surprise me is that he dosnt want more of his Bulls entering Ai and that he is able to turn down 10 k for Bulls .

why does it interest you that he has no jersey blood?most decent cow herds have br freisian and then crossed over and back with some degree of holstein. .maintain both milk and power in the animal. .you have a decent saleable calf and cull cow..jersey or jersey cross has no place in this picture.

hedgebury

ive found that by using fresh semen and serving cows when theyre bulling as opposed to the following morning/evening youll have plenty of heifer calves as in over half at least.
if a technician cant come to you in evening get a bull.also tail painting is a waste of time,youll find youve served plenty of them that were not bulling atall.trust your eye/cowbehaviour.
dont do ai for too long as you will miss a few and leave in your beef bull.

mahoney_j

hedgebury wrote: »

ive found that by using fresh semen and serving cows when theyre bulling as opposed to the following morning/evening youll have plenty of heifer calves as in over half at least.
if a technician cant come to you in evening get a bull.also tail painting is a waste of time,youll find youve served plenty of them that were not bulling atall.trust your eye/cowbehaviour.
dont do ai for too long as you will miss a few and leave in your beef bull.

Super advice there......