Remember those scumbags who terrorised a family in Tipperary? One assaulted his GF...

hatrickpatrick

...and won't serve any extra time, despite the fact that his original sentence was partially suspended.

Here's the story:

http://www.herald.ie/news/courts/brutal-home-invasion-thug-beat-his-pregnant-girlfriend-unconscious-34533179.html

Here's the story of the original burglary:

http://www.irishtimes.com/news/crime-and-law/courts/circuit-court/seven-dublin-men-given-prison-terms-ranging-from-12-to-20-years-for-raid-on-tipperary-family-1.2374368

I know nothing should shock me anymore in this f*cked up state, but how can anybody in our justice system possibly claim that gangland crime is something they actually want to do something about while sh!t like this is going on? The two cases prove very conclusively that this particular individual is a savage, feral psychopath who should never again be allowed to walk the streets without being under surveillance. He's a danger to society. He'll be out of jail in five years (he originally got a twelve year sentence but most of it was suspended) - despite even more evidence coming before the court that he can barely be described as a human being. The man clearly lacks empathy in any form whatsoever.

Anyone want to take bets on how long it'll be after he gets released, before some other innocent person or entire family suffers in one way or another at his hands?

Anyone want to take bets, if that does indeed happen, on how long it'll take before we get a hang-wringing "we're sooooo concerned about the safety of our citizens" from the government, which will then turn a blind eye to the lack of criminal justice in this country?

Even a former judge has come out and condemned this idiocy:

http://www.irishmirror.ie/news/irish-news/retired-judge-slams-number-criminals-6683412

Look, believe it or not I'm actually quite left wing and liberal. I'm the last person who would be advocating a US style crime policy wherein people get locked up for everything from verbal abuse to smoking a joint. But we all know that gangland crime is a different kettle of fish entirely. These are violent, out of control scumbags who based on their behaviour and the number of convictions they rack up, are fundamentally incapable of behaving like decent human beings. And they're getting let off with slaps on the wrist day after day, while our governments scratch their heads and apparently can't figure out why the gangland situation in Ireland is so bad.

Will anything ever be done about this? The idea that this guy, whose initial burglary had already made me sick to my stomach, also beat the living daylights out of his (pregnant!) girlfriend and won't serve even an extra day on what was already an appallingly lenient sentence, is spine chilling.

Ice Maiden

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

I know nothing should shock me anymore in this f*cked up state

Hyperbole central. You have some skewed view of what constitutes a ****ed up state.

That case was extremely disturbing and upsetting - do you really think the judge actually wanted to give them lenient sentences? And if so, why? It's the legislature itself that needs to be examined, I think.

I don't think either that this disproves a desire to do something about gangland crime.

Was watching something recently about slavery in Britain - the camps run by Irish travellers and the like; it is proving extremely difficult for the British (and international) police to get the degenerates and destroy their operations. When these are the type of people that they're dealing with, unfortunately it is a long, difficult process. One traveller brute who enslaved a man with learning difficulties for 13 years on a farm got four years in prison - not even a third of the sentence that poor man endured. It is not just an Irish state thing, despite what some like to say.

JimmySnails

If it was the judges extended family he robbed and terrorised or his niece or daughter he beat up, he wouldn't be dishing out such lenient sentences.

Would you even bother reporting an assault in this country? Your life is on hold until the case comes to trial, your life is on hold and you can't move on, then you have to face your attacker again, and for what?

So the arsehole can receive another suspended sentence? I don't think I'd even bother. Adding insult to injury.

The judge can only follow sentencing guidelines, blame the legislature.

Sheep Lover

It will only take another McNally type scenario for this problem to be taken seriously. Then we'll have the bleeding hearts out decrying some poor unfortunate defending his property from a career criminal who has been terrorising the community.

DEFTLEFTHAND

These are some of the worst people in the country, bad to the core. No remorse for what they put that family through, only smirking and giggling in court.

They'll continue their evil lives when they get out, the likes of them are incapable of being rehabilitated.

Damien360

Candie wrote: »

The judge can only follow sentencing guidelines, blame the legislature.

There are no guidelines. There is previous sentencing to follow. So if judges decide to keep reducing sentencing it eventually gets to zero and the criteria of previous setencing is still met.

The judicial system does not serve citizens and fails to give those empowered with protecting citizens, the police, powers to tackle crime. It is high time it was tackled at government level. Currently the judicial system calls that interference but if the system does not work then it needs to be fixed. The judges are unelected and we have no power to remove them (look at Judge Curtain for example).

It is broken.

Ice Maiden

Damien360 wrote: »

There are no guidelines. There is previous sentencing to follow. So if judges decide to keep reducing sentencing it eventually gets to zero and the criteria of previous setencing is still met.

The judicial system does not serve citizens and fails to give those empowered with protecting citizens, the police, powers to tackle crime. It is high time it was tackled at government level. Currently the judicial system calls that interference but if the system does not work then it needs to be fixed. The judges are unelected and we have no power to remove them (look at Judge Curtain for example).

It is broken.

Why do you think they want to hand out lenient sentences though? I really don't believe they actually want to, particularly the likes of those involved in that obscene raid in Tipperary.

hatrickpatrick

Ice Maiden wrote: »

Hyperbole central. You have some skewed view of what constitutes a ****ed up state.

Allowing violent gangland scumbags to commit crimes with virtual impunity isn't f*cked up?

What, may I ask, would justify the use of the term then in your opinion?

That case was extremely disturbing and upsetting - do you really think the judge actually wanted to give them lenient sentences? And if so, why? It's the legislature itself that needs to be examined, I think.

There's nothing in the law which says "you can apply this maximum sentence and you must suspend most of it, regardless of previous behaviour, severity of crime, or future convictions". Yet that's what our judges do, day in, day out.

I don't think either that this disproves a desire to do something about gangland crime.

No, of course not. Failing to punish the few gangland criminals the Gardai manage to infiltrate successfully enough to actually secure a hard-won conviction doesn't indicate an apathy towards the safety of the state's citizens. Just like how failing to give a rugby player a red card after repeated headbutts of other players doesn't send a message that the ref couldn't give a bollocks about the safety of players.

Was watching something recently about slavery in Britain - the camps run by Irish travellers and the like; it is proving extremely difficult for the British (and international) police to get the degenerates and destroy their operations. When these are the type of people that they're dealing with, unfortunately it is a long, difficult process. One traveller brute who enslaved a man with learning difficulties for 13 years on a farm got four years in prison - not even a third of the sentence that poor man endured. It is not just an Irish state thing, despite what some like to say.

There's a difference. What you're talking about there is the difficulty in infiltrating these gangs, gathering intelligence, and satisfying the (rightfully) stringent criteria of a criminal court in order to convince a jury that the individuals are guilty beyond a reasonable doubt.

That is not in question in this case. All of these men have been convicted. IT's just judges refusing to be assholes when they have to be. People like this scumbag should be shown absolutely no sympathy in court, and they should be locked up for the absolute maximum amount of time the law will allow them to be.

electrobanana

Ice Maiden wrote: »

Hyperbole central. You have some skewed view of what constitutes a ****ed up state.

That case was extremely disturbing and upsetting - do you really think the judge actually wanted to give them lenient sentences? And if so, why? It's the legislature itself that needs to be examined, I think.

I don't think either that this disproves a desire to do something about gangland crime.

Was watching something recently about slavery in Britain - the camps run by Irish travellers and the like; it is proving extremely difficult for the British (and international) police to get the degenerates and destroy their operations. When these are the type of people that they're dealing with, unfortunately it is a long, difficult process. One traveller brute who enslaved a man with learning difficulties for 13 years on a farm got four years in prison - not even a third of the sentence that poor man endured. It is not just an Irish state thing, despite what some like to say.

Hyperbole central :rolleyes: Jesus wept

Ice Maiden

electrobanana wrote: »

Hyperbole central :rolleyes: Jesus wept

Just the part about Ireland being a ****ed up state. Read about Sudan for an example of a ****ed up state.

If people think judges want to hand out lenient sentences to these degenerates, why do they think they want to do so?

Sheep Lover

Ice Maiden wrote: »

Just the part about Ireland being a ****ed up state. Read about Sudan for an example of a ****ed up state.

So we can't complain because somewhere else has it worse. Great logic, much sense.

hatrickpatrick

Ice Maiden wrote: »

Just the part about Ireland being a ****ed up state. Read about Sudan for an example of a ****ed up state.

This logical fallacy is known as the "appeal to common practise", in other words, "plenty of others are worse, so we should tolerate our situation because it's not as bad".

We shouldn't tolerate any gangland crime whatsoever. This idea that we just get it down to a certain level and let it happen beyond that is exactly why the situation is such a mess.

electrobanana

Ice Maiden wrote: »

Just the part about Ireland being a ****ed up state. Read about Sudan for an example of a ****ed up state.

If people think judges want to hand out lenient sentences to these degenerates, why do they think they want to do so?

Nothing got to do with that at all tbh i just hate the word hyperbole and then you threw in central and that just pushed me over the edge.

Sheep Lover

Ice Maiden wrote: »

But that is not what I said at all whatsoever so what is the point in saying I did?

How can you compare Tipperary to Sudan?

Ice Maiden

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

This logical fallacy is known as the "appeal to common practise", in other words, "plenty of others are worse, so we should tolerate our situation because it's not as bad".

We shouldn't tolerate any gangland crime whatsoever. This idea that we just get it down to a certain level and let it happen beyond that is exactly why the situation is such a mess.

But that is not what I said. I said precisely nothing indicating we should tolerate any gangland crime.
I only said Ireland is not a ****ed up state, that is all. That does not mean in the slightest that we cannot complain about gangland scum. I would be more inclined to blame gangland scum than law enforcement though. As if law enforcement don't want the gangland scum locked up. Something is causing the lenient sentences and I do not think it is merely the judges "wanting" to hand them out.

Damien360

Ice Maiden wrote: »

Why do you think they want to hand out lenient sentences though? I really don't believe they actually want to, particularly the likes of those involved in that obscene raid in Tipperary.

Criminals keep getting concurrent sentences. There have been appeals against longer sentences and invariably those appeals win. It is not about wanting to hand out lenient sentences but a failure to reverse a trend and start to scale the setencing up.

Hard life is too easy an excuse. How often do you open your local paper, see the same names and here about the hard life. The same judge that saw that person for their last sentence appears to have no prior knowledge of the person. Ah, you had a hard life, off scot free for you. They could have a 4000sq ft home with a fleet of new cars every year and because they have no income, they get free lawyers. The system feeds itself. The judicary came from that same system, built to line pockets. That is why I believe it is in the interest of those employed in law to have leniant sentencing.

Ice Maiden

Damien360 wrote: »

Hard life is too easy an excuse. How often do you open your local paper, see the same names and here about the hard life. The same judge that saw that person for their last sentence appears to have no prior knowledge of the person. Ah, you had a hard life, off scot free for you.

Isn't that crap more the defence solicitor's line than the judge's?

Damien360

Ice Maiden wrote: »

Isn't that crap more the defence solicitor's line than the judge's?

Where do you think the judge got his training ? They are part of the same system.

Damien360

Ice Maiden wrote: »

Isn't that crap more the defence solicitor's line than the judge's?

Judge does not apply common sense and laugh at that excuse and dismiss it.

Wailin

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

.

Look, believe it or not I'm actually quite left wing and liberal.

Grabbed my coat right there

hatrickpatrick

Ice Maiden wrote: »

I only said Ireland is not a ****ed up state, that is all.

Any state which refuses to protect its citizens from violent scumbags is a f*cked up state in my view.

Wompa1

Probably should have invested more of that Celtic Tiger money into the services we need. Oh, Well! Maybe next time, eh? :pac:

The flying mouse

Sheep Lover wrote: »

How can you compare Tipperary to Sudan?

Obivisouly you have never been to Tipperary ,,, it's a long way you know :-)

Roger Hassenforder

electrobanana wrote: »

Nothing got to do with that at all tbh i just hate the word hyperbole and then you threw in central and that just pushed me over the edge.

that's hyperbole right there!

Ronald Wilson Reagan

We really do need a malaria invested tropical colony to send these degenerates to.

hatrickpatrick

Ronald Wilson Reagan wrote: »

We really do need a malaria invested tropical colony to send these degenerates to.

Wait, wait wait. Hold on a feckin' minute here.
.....You're suggesting that gangland scumbags should get to live somewhere, for free, where it doesn't piss rain every five minutes? :pac:

Roger Hassenforder

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Wait, wait wait. Hold on a feckin' minute here.
.....You're suggesting that gangland scumbags should get to live somewhere, for free, where it doesn't piss rain every five minutes? :pac:

I'm sure we could find some swamp with mosquitos where it pisses a lot.

Nodin

Roger Hassenforder wrote: »

I'm sure we could find some swamp with mosquitos where it pisses a lot.

Laois?

Roger Hassenforder

Nodin wrote: »

Laois?

is it bad enough though?