Fixing up inside of shed

Howdy folks.

Was wondering if I could fire off a few quick questions (the "quick" part may not be true).

There's a shed out the back of my dad's house. It's been there 10 years. It was originally built as a workshop, but then that work quietened down. I used it as a little home gym afterwards. Following that it became a place to clean the car.

So, it's had (And will continue to have) various uses. However, one thing that's a constant is that it's cold, has ludicrous amounts of condensation, has damp on the walls, and is just generally in poor overall condition (it's not leaking or anything, mind). Also, because it's in poor condition and never really used for a specific purpose, it's become a 'spare room' of sorts - a place were everything gets dumped and forgotten about.


This is a rough idea of how it looks (photos are taken at 2 different times, hence the clutter changing in each pic)









This is where I start to need a bit of help. I want to make the place cleaner inside. I want the finish to be better and i want the shed to actually be usable long term. As it is, all the concrete is unfinished, so it dusts up all the time, there's a leak at the door, etc. so even when it's fully cleaned up, unless you're constantly maintaining it, a week later it's back to being in sh*te.


I had two people looking at it. They both had very different approaches to what they would do with it.

First guy suggested: Removing MDF from the ceiling, placing batons all along the walls, and floor, filling gaps with thick insulation, and covering in plywood. Effectively, the walls, ceiling and floor will all be the same (layer of plywood over insulated batons). He reckons this is the best way forward for getting and keeping heat in, and that the only real issue would be the weight of having a car on the floor (so he'd have to just put the batons, which he said would likely be 2x4 inch lengths on their side) closer together to support the weight.

He priced at approximately €5,000.



Second guy suggested: Off the bat, he said without spending ridiculous money and effectively starting from scratch, you'd never get the shed to be warm. He suggested getting that notion out of my head and instead working on just giving a good finish. He said heat isn't really needed in a shed unless it's temporary (a small heater in the corner for the times you're there). He advised removing the MDF from the ceiling.

He then suggested batons on the walls with 'slates' against them. Now he showed me what the 'slates' were, and I can't think of their proper name (they're like a 10mm thick sheet of chalk, with a silver edge on both sides). That's a terrible description I know, but building supplies ain't my strong point!). He suggested pouring 2 inches of concrete onto the floor to level it, filling the gaps in the joists on the ceiling with insulation, and then slating over them, and slates for the walls. He said he can then plaster these to leave a 'builders finish' on the place.

He priced it at approximately €1,750, but said to allow for €2,000 incase anything unexpected shows up.



Both suggested that I get a set of PVC french doors, and if I get them, they can fit them properly (extra charge of course). They both are also aware that I plan to replace the big steel gate (that lets in more air than an open window) with a shutter/roller/sectional door (what type I've not yet decided but it'll be one of them).


So my question for ye guys is, does the second option above sound plausible? He suggested that the first guys idea wasn't a good one as if the shed does get damp again or anything like that, there's too much risk of warping and such (as there's an enormous amount of wood being used). But then, obviously, he's trying to sell his own work, so naturally he'll prefer his own approach over another persons).


Also do the prices seem reasonable on both counts?


Sorry for the long-winded rambling, but just not sure what I'm doing or what's going on around me with this kinda thing. The shed has been a 'problem shed' for years and I've spent a lot of time and a fair few euro fixing up small bits here and there and doing DIY jobs, but now I just want it sorted once and for all. It doesn't need to be perfect but I just want it to be a good finish.


Cheers for anyone who bothered to read so far!

oppenheimer1

It really depends on what you want to use the shed for. If you want a place to store tools and the like and work on the car and not have it icy cold, I'd insulate the walls and the ceiling and leave the floors. I'd only consider insulating the floor of it was too be used as an occasional extra bedroom. Paint the floor with an epoxy resin for a dust free and moppable finish.

I wouldn't recommend driving a car over a floor on timber battens, especially if you plan on washing it there.

Thanks for the reply.

If I have a concrete floor; that's just painted, is there point in insulating the walls? I've been told a concrete floor will eat up any heat that's in there in the first place? is this true? or would insulating the walls make a difference?

(the ceiling will be getting insulation either way).

It doesn't need to be roasting but the potential uses are an area for car valeting (no water indoors, any water will be outside the shed), a potential photo studio to photograph people, possible home gym. most likely the car will be kept there overnight a lot of the time.

So none of these require house quality interiors, but if I turn a heater on inside, it'd be nice to be able to keep some level of heat inside (is possible).

Not sure how effective insulation on the walls would be; though.

oppenheimer1

Deleted User wrote: »

Thanks for the reply.

If I have a concrete floor; that's just painted, is there point in insulating the walls? I've been told a concrete floor will eat up any heat that's in there in the first place? is this true? or would insulating the walls make a difference?

(the ceiling will be getting insulation either way).

It doesn't need to be roasting but the potential uses are an area for car valeting (no water indoors, any water will be outside the shed), a potential photo studio to photograph people, possible home gym. most likely the car will be kept there overnight a lot of the time.

So none of these require house quality interiors, but if I turn a heater on inside, it'd be nice to be able to keep some level of heat inside (is possible).

Not sure how effective insulation on the walls would be; though.

Of course it all depends on the construction but in general for insulation I'd do the ceiling first as heat rises, then the walls as they are generally the largest surface by area and finally the floor.

You don't really lose heat through the floor as generally you have compacted stone and soil beneath which can act as a natural insulator. You can suffer from cold bridging effects around the perimeter though.

Without doing the floor it will never be toasty,and it would be unsuitable for sleeping in but it shouldn't get so cold as to take the nose off you either. Seal up the doors for draughts do the walls and ceiling with plasterboard (thats the chalky board with foil, also known as "slabs" not "slates";)) and insulation, epoxy on the floors and it will be a fine job.

One final thing, just be careful of moisture. If the walls are sweating, they will still sweat after they are covered even if you cant see them. The moisture could rot your battens.

Gumbo

The floor will eat away a lot of your heat imo.
Have you got any scope to increase the floor height?

You could lay insulation and a DPM and pour a screed over?
You then also have the option to fit an underfloor heating system (electric or wet) especially if you are going to photo people or babies in there.

If you can do that then insulate the walls and ceiling. But I'd be checking to see if there's a dpc in the walls first and if not maybe try an injection system or another recommended system to prevent the rising damp coming up the external walls after you insulate them.

Could be a couple of k worth of work to get it to a habitable / useable standard.

Cheers for the replies, guys.


It is indeed 'slabs' (although he was saying 'slates'... i swear!! :P ). As part of doing this, the floor is not level, so he was planning to add about 2 inches of cement to level the floor off with. I've no idea if he planned to put anything between this and the concrete that's already there, though. As it stands, the floor-ceiling height is 7.5ft.

As far as i am told, when the shed was built, there was damp course put in. However, the shed has 2 walls that were built for it, and 2 of the walls were pre-existing garden walls. The ones built for it also have a damp course but the pre-existing ones don't (these are the ones with the most noticeable problems).


He reckons that if I want to insulate the walls, it'd add about a grand onto the price. This seems a bit steep to me (maybe I'm wrong). I presume that that you can get insulated plasterboard and uninsulated, too. But would there really be €1k in the difference? (the shed is about 15ft x 25ft based on a quick measurement today).


Would I be being a fool to not insulate the walls and just opt for normal plasterboard? Trying to find the best cost/benefit ratio. Don't want to spend unnecessarily, if the benefits aren't going to really be noticeable, but don't want to not do it, either, if it'd be a day and night difference in the finish.

Howdy folks, just bumping this again to see if anyone could pass any comment on whether or not it'd be worthwhile getting the walls insulated (at the approximate cost of an additional €1,000)?

I'm planning on talking to the builder tomorrow about pulling the trigger on getting moving on this so just thought I'd try my luck here again.


Thanks a lot

BryanF

Deleted User wrote: »

Howdy folks, just bumping this again to see if anyone could pass any comment on whether or not it'd be worthwhile getting the walls insulated (at the approximate cost of an additional €1,000)?

I'm planning on talking to the builder tomorrow about pulling the trigger on getting moving on this so just thought I'd try my luck here again.


Thanks a lot

I'd have several concerns with this project

1. You need to solve the damp proofing before doing any work on drylining/insulated slabs/ even plaster board. You must solve the damp first.
2. A 7.5ft ceiling - that's to low to insulate the floors effectively. what is the roof finish . Would it need to be changed Any time soon?
3. Insulating the ceiling depends on its construction method and may require ventilation.

4. can you explain a bit more about the propert use
5. and outline the frequency of use ?

First thing I'd do is go and get a 'concrete penetrating sealer' and clean out the shed.

You must know where the problem areas are after the Jan/Feb weather we've had.

Best to inspect the outside, starting with the problem spots.

6. Is the outside ground level more than 15cm(6") lower than the floor at all locations?
7. What is the finish outside, are all area properly plastered and painted?
8. Is there a overhanging roof/eaves ?

You've had to builders suggest insulating inside a building in poor condition with Damp & condensation issues, you need to solve this first.

But can you confirm the frequency of use and answer all the above please

Edit: really you need to figure out are you renovating a shed to the same level as an office? Or is this just to be a shed? There's a big difference in cost.

A shed: might just need a stove for the few winters evenings you find the time to go out to it..

BryanF

Cheers for the detailed response, Bryan. Much appreciated

BryanF wrote: »

1. You need to solve the damp proofing before doing any work on drylining/insulated slabs/ even plaster board. You must solve the damp first.

Pretty much, 2 of the walls off the shed were pre-existing garden walls. From what I understand, these two walls, as they were made and intended as outdoor walls, have no damp proofing or such. The other two walls (the walls where the door and gate are) have damp coursing, as does (I'm lead to believe) the floor.

2. A 7.5ft ceiling - that's to low to insulate the floors effectively. what is the roof finish . Would it need to be changed Any time soon?

The roof is a corrugated steel roof, over a sheet of polythene, sitting on top of wooden battens. These have MDF sheets screwed into them (they are the ceiling). Chap that was looking at it said that once the MDF comes down we can look at the roof better. He reckons an 'if it's not broke, don't fix it' approach is best. Roof will be worked on if need be, but if it's all still intact (and it's not leaking) then best to leave it alone.

3. Insulating the ceiling depends on its construction method and may require ventilation.

Ventilation isn't something I'd considered or thought of at all, to be honest. No one that's looked at the shed has mentioned it, either.

4. can you explain a bit more about the propert use

I want it as a bit of a 'jack of all trades' kind of space. It's current intended use is to be a space where I can clean the car and park it overnight. It'll have basic shelving and units in it for this and the rest of the space will be for the car to come in and park.

However, I'd like a space that, if the mood takes me, I can set up a backdrop and use it as a little photo studio, or throw some equipment into it to make it a home gym set up. So it's intended use is still a bit open, so really all I want is a decent finish.

5. and outline the frequency of use ?

This is unfortunately a 'how long is a piece of string' question. I probably will never venture into it to sit and read a book. and it'll probably never have a TV in it, so any long periods of time will be spent cleaning the car, doing a gym session or photographing someone. I don't plan to live in it or anything like that.

First thing I'd do is go and get a 'concrete penetrating sealer' and clean out the shed.

This is something I'll say to the builder chap that'll be doing the work. Can this be used on the walls that are already damp, as a means of future-proofing them?

You must know where the problem areas are after the Jan/Feb weather we've had.

The problem areas are the two walls that were there before the shed was built. These have had patches grow on them where dampness is an obvious issue. However, the issue never really gets worse. In the second picture in my OP, you can see the green on the wall on the left. Halfway down the wall, it stops, though (as there is a shed on the other side of it down there, so that must be an influencing factor).

Their shed isn't as long as mine, so where their shed ends, my green walls start.

Best to inspect the outside, starting with the problem spots.

All you can see on the outside is the front of the shed, where there is concrete and decking. There is muck under the decking, but not in direct contact with the shed wall.

The other sides of the shed are neighbours gardens so can't see them.

For a long time there was a lot of muck sitting against the left side of the shed but it was eventually cleared away last year (when I say a long time, I mean for years).

This is a picture from when i started cleaning the place up last year. The muck was as high as where the paint changes colour;

6. Is the outside ground level more than 15cm(6") lower than the floor at all locations?

where the gate is (the big steel one) there's about a 3 or 4" drop. On the side where the doors/windows are, the ground is at least 6" lower i'd say.

7. What is the finish outside, are all area properly plastered and painted?

Yeah the exterior is painted up. Here's a more recent photo of the exterior front of the shed:

8. Is there a overhanging roof/eaves ?

Marginally. You can see in the pics above.

You've had to builders suggest insulating inside a building in poor condition with Damp & condensation issues, you need to solve this first.

Is it solvable, though? One of the lads wants to pour another 2 inches of concrete on the floor (mostly as a means of leveling it though, admittedly). Will this help with dampness?

I think the walls that are showing damp issues are at a stage where they are untreatable without knocking? (unless the deep penetrating sealer you mentioned earlier can do it?). Knocking these walls isn't an option, though.

But can you confirm the frequency of use and answer all the above please

Edit: really you need to figure out are you renovating a shed to the same level as an office? Or is this just to be a shed? There's a big difference in cost.

A shed: might just need a stove for the few winters evenings you find the time to go out to it..

I'd say instead of a 'shed' or 'office', I'd class what I want as a 'workshop'. Anytime I'm going to be in it for extended periods, I'll be doing something (whether it be cleaning a car or taking a person's photo). I'll never be sitting in it for hours on end browsing boards or watching films. (that said, I would like to be able to leave electrical goods in it if possible, without condensation rotting them through. As it stands, I wouldn't put a TV in it, for example, as I know it'd be soaked and knackered within a week).


Not sure if my replies help out or not at all.

BryanF

The penetrating sealer was for you to paint on the dusty walls, that's all, the damp/ lack of dpc must be solved - did you see the 'room to improve' a few weeks ago where drylining had a festering fungus behind it, that'll be your problem if you dryline.

How to solve it, needs more questions and surveying, the boundaries are the issues, as you have no control on those sides, unless you demolish and start again.

For now, put on the concrete sealer, get a heat source and see what a but of heat will do to sort the place out for the summer months at least.

As regards electrical goods or insulating, I would not put/ leave either in there as they get damp, get condensation in them and rust/mould

oppenheimer1

BryanF wrote: »

The penetrating sealer was for you to paint on the dusty walls, that's all, the damp/ lack of dpc must be solved - did you see the 'room to improve' a few weeks ago where drylining had a festering fungus behind it, that'll be your problem if you dryline.

How to solve it, needs more questions and surveying, the boundaries are the issues, as you have no control on those sides, unless you demolish and start again.

For now, put on the concrete sealer, get a heat source and see what a but of heat will do to sort the place out for the summer months at least.

As regards electrical goods or insulating, I would not put/ leave either in there as they get damp, get condensation in them and rust/mould

The issue here I bet is that there is water dripping on the wall on the other side of the boundary, plaster has come away or something like that. It doesn't look like rising damp since you'd see a tide line. Rising damp is an overstated problem anyway.