Private security firms powers on public streets?

Atlantic Dawn

I spotted an article in todays Irish Independent regarding a contract awarded by Dublin City Council to a private security firm to limit access to Temple Bar during St Patricks Day so as to control the crowds. What I am wondering is what power if any a private security guard has to give any instruction to a member of the public on a public street regarding access?

A private security firm is to man the entrances to Temple Bar on St Patrick's Day to limit the number of revellers in the area.

Locals and tourists may find themselves unable to access the lively area under the new crowd control plan.

Once the area becomes too full it will be closed off to members of the public until people leave the cobblestone streets.

A private security firm is due to be hired by Dublin City Council (DCC) to patrol all access points, and work alongside gardai on the day.

It is expected to cost the council between €10,000 and €12,000 to hire a security firm.

The radical new plan is aimed at avoiding the "saturation" of the area, which has caused problems in previous years, according to city council officials.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/news/security-firm-hired-to-control-influx-into-temple-bar-on-st-patricks-day-34524637.html

seamus

As they are being hired by the city council, they will have powers by proxy to deny access to areas where the city council has designated specifically as crowd control areas. In the same way that you have college green closed off to ticket holders only and the roads around Croke Park are closed on match days.

In general, they're a deterrent. Absolute enforcement powers will come down to the Gardai, but you'll have 4 or 5 security personnel standing there denying access and anyone who attempts to push through will meet a Garda who's standing there waiting to strongarm them back out of the cordoned area.

In absolute terms it comes down to the fact that any member of the public is entitled to "give instruction" to any other member of the public, who in turn is entitled to ignore that instruction.

Most people won't ignore it though, they'll turn around and go away.

Elemonator

Pretty sure if the local Superintendent signs a S21 Public Order, they can stop members of the public.

Lem'

cobhguy28

Elemonator wrote: »

Pretty sure if the local Superintendent signs a S21 Public Order, they can stop members of the public.

Lem'

This section just allows them to route people to an event. so they can say you can only use a certain road or if its a ticketed event stop people with no tickets however it does not give them any power to stop people who are going about a lawful propose, say going to a house or business on that road.

"A member of the Garda Síochána shall not prohibit aperson from crossing or passing a barrier erected under this section save for the purpose of diverting the person to another means of access to the event, if it appears to the member that the person is seeking to do so for the purpose only of—


(a) going to his dwelling or place of business or work in the vicinity of the event, or

(b) going for any other lawful purpose to any place in the vicinity of the event other than the place where the event is taking place or is about to take place."


So unless there is some byelaw there, that leaves them shut a public street, and stop you going to a business/pubs I would guess this is more window dressing of having security there asking people, more than them having an power to stop them.

drunkmonkey

Badly needed for public order, there's a load of the pants in socks brigade about and the Garda can't keep on top of them all.
It's probably going to go horribly wrong though, I don't think people with beers down have a lot of respect for bouncers, and socks in pants certainly hasn't. It has the potential to create a confrontational environment.

hullaballoo

I was just going to say something similar. The private security industry here doesn't have an exemplary record for knowing the limitations of their powers and are all too often more likely to provoke a situation where drink is involved.

I know the new licensing regime has been helpful but the either because the training is falling short or the recipients are ignoring it, confrontation is always on the cards with these lads.

A garda presence might keep things in check though, in fairness to them, they take a far better approach to crowd control and are generally very nice about things while they interfere with your rights. (:pac:)

markpb

hullaballoo wrote: »

A garda presence might keep things in check though

I'd imagine there will be one or two Gardai on duty there too.

esforum

cobhguy28 wrote: »

This section just allows them to route people to an event. so they can say you can only use a certain road or if its a ticketed event stop people with no tickets however it does not give them any power to stop people who are going about a lawful propose, say going to a house or business on that road.

"A member of the Garda Síochána shall not prohibit aperson from crossing or passing a barrier erected under this section save for the purpose of diverting the person to another means of access to the event, if it appears to the member that the person is seeking to do so for the purpose only of—


(a) going to his dwelling or place of business or work in the vicinity of the event, or

(b) going for any other lawful purpose to any place in the vicinity of the event other than the place where the event is taking place or is about to take place."


So unless there is some byelaw there, that leaves them shut a public street, and stop you going to a business/pubs I would guess this is more window dressing of having security there asking people, more than them having an power to stop them.

if the street has been shut under a s21 then you can be prevented from entering the street as thats the location of the event. The reference above states YOUR dwelling or business, not anyones.

cobhguy28

esforum wrote: »

if the street has been shut under a s21 then you can be prevented from entering the street as thats the location of the event. The reference above states YOUR dwelling or business, not anyones.

It's says going any place in the vicinity of the event. So going to any private business on that closed street like a pub would be allowed as the event is not in the pub. The other thing is what's the event that's on. The council is on about restricting access but there does not seem to be any event on.

drunkmonkey

Templebar is the event, I don't get the restricted access, restrict access through every enterance, why? Are they going to try and limit the amount of people going in at any one time? Not possible without causing problems at multiple points. I'd say it's just to keep the crap out or hold them until paddy wagon arrives..

cobhguy28

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Templebar is the event, I don't get the restricted access, restrict access through every enterance, why? Are they going to try and limit the amount of people going in at any one time? Not possible without causing problems at multiple points. I'd say it's just to keep the crap out or hold them until paddy wagon arrives..

Templebar is an area. There has to be a specific event happening plus access to the event can only be restricted if there are tickets only power under s.21 is to direct them to official enterance not stop them or control numbers.

drunkmonkey

Wouldn't the Patrick's day parade be considered an event? Are you sure about tickets being required though?

esforum

cobhguy28 wrote: »

Templebar is an area. There has to be a specific event happening plus access to the event can only be restricted if there are tickets only power under s.21 is to direct them to official enterance not stop them or control numbers.

cobhguy28 wrote: »

It's says going any place in the vicinity of the event. So going to any private business on that closed street like a pub would be allowed as the event is not in the pub. The other thing is what's the event that's on. The council is on about restricting access but there does not seem to be any event on.

where are you getting this interpretation from?

Carawaystick

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Wouldn't the Patrick's day parade be considered an event? Are you sure about tickets being required though?

Is the parade going through Temple bar?

cobhguy28

esforum wrote: »

where are you getting this interpretation from?

http://www.irishstatutebook.ie/eli/1994/act/2/section/21/enacted/en/html

21.—(1) If it appears to a member of the Garda Síochána not below the rank of superintendent that it is necessary in the interests of safety or for the purpose of preserving order to restrict the access of persons to a place where an event is taking or is about to take place which attracts, or is likely to attract, a large assembly of persons (in this Part referred to as the “event”), he may authorise any member of the Garda Síochána to erect or cause to be erected a barrier or a series of barriers on any road, street, lane, alley or other means of access to such a place in a position not more than one mile therefrom for the purpose of regulating the access of persons or vehicles thereto.

(3) A member of the Garda Síochána shall not prohibit a person from crossing or passing a barrier erected under this section save for the purpose of diverting the person to another means of access to the event, if it appears to the member that the person is seeking to do so for the purpose only of—

(a) going to his dwelling or place of business or work in the vicinity of the event, or
(b) going for any other lawful purpose to any place in the vicinity of the event other than the place where the event is taking place or is about to take place.

The whole section is about diverting people orderly to access an event. its not about closing off a section so an event can take place on that closed off section.

Closing off an area so that an event can take place falls under different powers of the council and that is why I say without a specific event taken place in templebar I dont see how s.21 comes into play.

Now maybe templebar falls under different considerations like the International Financial Services Centre but i do not know if that is the case.

esforum

so again, where are you getting the idea that the event must be ticketed and that the event itself can only be inside a set building? Its St Patricks day, there will be 'events' in temple bar and barriers can be erected within 1 mile of the event.

cobhguy28

esforum wrote: »

so again, where are you getting the idea that the event must be ticketed and that the event itself can only be inside a set building? Its St Patricks day, there will be 'events' in temple bar and barriers can be erected within 1 mile of the event.

Just read the link. It's states about tickets and it states about controling access to the event nobody said anything about a set building . So what official events are taking place in temple bar.

esforum

cobhguy28 wrote: »

Just read the link. It's states about tickets and it states about controling access to the event nobody said anything about a set building . So what official events are taking place in temple bar.

I did read the link and I re-read it and it has a whole complete seperate section with its own rules on events with tickets.

cobhguy28

esforum wrote: »

I did read the link and I re-read it and it has a whole complete seperate section with its own rules on events with tickets.

It's not a complete seperate sectionals it (b) of s.21 (2) but it is the only place in the act which states someone can be prohibited all the other section deal with directing people on how to access.

esforum

cobhguy28 wrote: »

It's not a complete seperate sectionals it (b) of s.21 (2) but it is the only place in the act which states someone can be prohibited all the other section deal with directing people on how to access.

Do you accept therefore that your statement about tickets was incorrect?

cobhguy28

esforum wrote: »

Do you accept therefore that your statement about tickets was incorrect?

How was it. I said you could only be prohibited if there are tickets.

esforum

cobhguy28 wrote: »

Templebar is an area. There has to be a specific event happening plus access to the event can only be restricted if there are tickets only power under s.21 is to direct them to official enterance not stop them or control numbers.

Thats not true

cobhguy28

esforum wrote: »

Thats not true

Why is that not true. By restricted I mean stopped going to the area where event is happening. Unless it's tickets then no, you can not be stopped Under s.21 going there. Only power is to direct access.

Canadel

drunkmonkey wrote: »

Badly needed for public order, there's a load of the pants in socks brigade about and the Garda can't keep on top of them all.
It's probably going to go horribly wrong though, I don't think people with beers down have a lot of respect for bouncers, and socks in pants certainly hasn't. It has the potential to create a confrontational environment.

Hire more Gardaí. Bring extra Gardaí up to Dublin from down the country for the day. Make the businesses in Temple Bar pay for extra security.

It's a bad idea privatising the police force in a country. Even a small scale situation like is being proposed in Temple Bar has the potential to cause problems and sets a bad precedent.