The Swede and the Finn

Jellybaby1

Not a recipe for dinner. I have heard the story from Donal Fallon several times now about the two foreigners who turned up at the GPO during the Rising. Would these men have been eligible for a pension? It seems to me that everyone who was involved, even in a small way in the GPO received a pension. Though I am probably wrong. How were these men viewed after Independence, or were they even considered?

tac foley

Please expound. I've never heard this one, and at first I thought it might be a bad joke. Finland did not exist at that time as a separate nation - it was a Grand Duchy of Tsarist Russia, so how a Finn got himself involved seems very strange to me. Travelling around, for the ordinary subject of Tsarist Russia, would have been virtually impossible.

I've taken the liberty of sending this post to my relatives in SE and SF.


tac

Tabnabs

Lots of information if you google it...

eg.
http://www.thejournal.ie/readme/ordic-rebels-%E2%80%93-the-swede-and-finn-who-fought-in-the-gpo-1916-1230007-Dec2013/

tac foley

Many thanks for that. Fascinating stuff, eh?

What a story! The two guys being sailors has to be real - both nations are renowned for their ships' crewing capabilities, particularly in the far North. Snow and ice are not strangers to either of them.

tac

Jellybaby1

tac foley wrote: »

Please expound. I've never heard this one, and at first I thought it might be a bad joke. Finland did not exist at that time as a separate nation - it was a Grand Duchy of Tsarist Russia, so how a Finn got himself involved seems very strange to me. Travelling around, for the ordinary subject of Tsarist Russia, would have been virtually impossible.

I've taken the liberty of sending this post to my relatives in SE and SF.

tac

Tac, I've been on a couple of Donal Fallon's walks and talks and he was on Newstalk this week explaining the story once more. He said one of the men, can't remember which one, ended up emigrating to America and he died around 1950'ish. Probably possible to listen to it online anyway to get clarification. Sorry I am not au fait with SE and SF, can you explain these please?

tac foley

Sorry - SE = Sweden and SF = Finland in international abbreviations. Sverige and Suomi/Finland, in fact.

Like you see on trucks and cars? I guess you see very few of these in Ireland, but they are very common here on mainland UK.

tac

Jellybaby1

Ta very much for the info. I thought SF may have meant something else and couldn't work out SE.

tac foley

Hah! Nobody but a few in the know recognise Finland from SF - hardly a surprise as 'Suomi' does not sound much like 'Finland'.

But in English the Finnish name means 'land of the fens/swamps/bogs/marshes' and maybe where the word 'swamp' came from, nobody knows.

In a similar vein - who knows that CH is Switzerland?

tac

Jellybaby1

I just did some Googling (probably should have done this first), and found this from http://www.theeasterrising.eu/065_Pension/Pension.htm

1924 Service Pensions (Easter Week & War of Independence Service) Any person who rendered active service in Oglaigh na hÉireann or a kindred organisation during the week commencing 23 April (Easter Week), 1916 was eligible to be awarded a certificate of service and a military service pension under the Military Service Pensions Acts 1924.
All such persons were later also eligible for the award of the 1916 Medal which was instituted in 1941. The Minister for defence recommended the issue of a medal with bar to all persons awarded service under the Military Service Pensions Acts and those who did not apply for a pension but who satisfy the Minister that they rendered service between 1916 and 1921 and a medal without bar to all those enrolled the IRA, Fianna Eireann, Cumann na mBann and the Irish Citizen Army not less than three months prior to 11th July 1921 but who did not qualify for a pension.

I would say these two chaps did indeed 'render service', even though one couldn't shoot a gun. What do you think?

tac foley

If you start up a petition, I'll be among the first to sign it!

tac

Jellybaby1

Would anyone in authority listen?

tac foley

Well, maybe not a petition, but there could be no better time to write a letter to the Swedish Embassy in Dublin, reminding them that one of the fighters in Ireland's struggle for freedom in 1916 was an un-named Swede.

The same could be done for the Finn/Latvian/Lithuanian [see below], whose garbled name is probably going to remain unknown to history. He may have been the world's worst shot, but his heart was certainly in the right place.

Since I'm only a 'plastic paddy', it wouldn't look good coming from me, but from a REAL Irishman, well...............

tac

Kalimah

I've sent on that link to a friend who has a Finnish neighbour and asked if they could make any sense of the name. I'll drop an email to the Swedish embassy too. It would be great to solve the mystery once and for all!

tac foley

Our former-Finnish freedom fighter fella may have been telling porkies.

Maginitis/Magonitis is a Latvian last name, but Maciulaitis is a Lithuanian last name.

tac

schaffer1969

tac foley wrote: »

Our former-Finnish freedom fighter fella may have been telling porkies.

Maginitis/Magonitis is a Latvian last name, but Maciulaitis is a Lithuanian last name.

tac

Not an issue. Similar to someone called Murphy in the UK or Smith in Ireland.
They are neighbouring countries with a strong Russian influence at the time.
People travelled between them.

Jellybaby1

tac foley wrote: »

.......Since I'm only a 'plastic paddy', it wouldn't look good coming from me, but from a REAL Irishman, well...............

tac

Although I am Irish, some might not describe me as such, and I certainly can't be described as a 'man' either!! For I am a laydee! However, I am happy for someone else to fight this battle. By the way, I also heard about the man who printed the Proclamation, he could have been arrested also for treason, was denied a pension when he applied.

tac foley

'kay, IF I was a female, I'd be called a 'plastic Patricia', as it also happens that one of my first names is Patrick.

Only my dad was Irish...

So the half of me that is Irish would like to see the names of the people, male and female, in some sort of commemoration plaque, attached to, or nearby, the GPO or another much-involved building or location. On it would be the names [if known] of all those who took part in the events of Easter 1916 in Dublin, with another side plaque of those who were involved extra-murally, STS.

All furriners involved would be given their very own plaque.

tac

Stojkovic

tac foley wrote: »

Please expound. I've never heard this one, and at first I thought it might be a bad joke. Finland did not exist at that time as a separate nation - it was a Grand Duchy of Tsarist Russia, so how a Finn got himself involved seems very strange to me.

You could say that Ireland didnt exist at the time also. Didnt stop people being 'Irish'. Same as a Finn is still a Finn even with Russian overlords.

I too heard this story that they just turned up and wanted to fight.

Stojkovic

tac foley wrote: »

Please expound. I've never heard this one, and at first I thought it might be a bad joke. Finland did not exist at that time as a separate nation - it was a Grand Duchy of Tsarist Russia, so how a Finn got himself involved seems very strange to me.

You could say that Ireland didnt exist at the time also. Didnt stop people being 'Irish'. Same as a Finn is still a Finn even with Russian overlords.

I too heard this story that they just turned up and wanted to fight.

tac foley

I heard you the first time...

tac

Stojkovic

tac foley wrote: »

I heard you the first time...

tac

Damn iPhone.

Piksi.

Jellybaby1

tac foley wrote: »

'kay, IF I was a female, I'd be called a 'plastic Patricia', as it also happens that one of my first names is Patrick.

Only my dad was Irish...

So the half of me that is Irish would like to see the names of the people, male and female, in some sort of commemoration plaque, attached to, or nearby, the GPO or another much-involved building or location. On it would be the names [if known] of all those who took part in the events of Easter 1916 in Dublin, with another side plaque of those who were involved extra-murally, STS.

All furriners involved would be given their very own plaque.

tac

Yes, there would have to be plaques on the Boland's site and any other sites the rebels had occupied. Also some died on the streets to-ing and fro-ing, so then how would they be commemorated? A plaque in each street? This could take some time to sort out. But, if there was a plaque on the GPO commemorating those who occupied the GPO, then it wouldn't be fair to exclude said furriners just 'cos they were furriners. They had less reason to be there than the rest of them, so they went a step further. They should be on the same plaque. Sorted.

tac foley

Is it perhaps time for a national monument?

tac

Jellybaby1

Something commemorating our Independence of course, and include the lads & lassies from 1916 who although they fought bravely, did actually fail.

The Chieftain

Two points.

First, instead of worrying about two strays who may or may not have participated, what about giving some recognition to the many members of Cumann na mBan who are still unrecognized? There are quite a few such women whose participation was documented, yet they received neither medals nor pension. (My grandmother among them).

Second, I personally find the use of the word "rebel" to describe the patriots of 1916 both demeaning and insulting.

Jellybaby1

I said 'rebel'. But weren't they rebelling against the British?

tac foley

Sir, you might not care for the use of the word, but in this context it is correct.

Rebel (noun) - a ​person who is ​opposed to the ​political ​system in ​their ​country and ​tries to ​change it using ​force : eg., The rebels took over the ​capital and set up a new ​government.

The government of the day was the established government - fact.

The vast majority of that established government did not support the efforts of the rebels. Nor, at the time, did the majority of the population - another two facts.

tac

The Chieftain

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

I said 'rebel'. But weren't they rebelling against the British?

That is to concede that the British were a legitimate government in Ireland, which is not so. But in any case, successful revolutionaries are no longer such, by virtue of their success. And while they may have lost an initial battle, the Irish revolutionaries were eventually successful.

One important analogy I would put forth is that with the US revolution. The Americans are variously described as patriots, Americans, or colonials, but never as rebels. If it is the standard for the the US, I see no reason not to apply the same to ourselves.

tac foley

Notwithstanding your POV, the government of the day was the duly elected government of the day, like it or not.

tac

The Chieftain

tac foley wrote: »

Notwithstanding your POV, the government of the day was the duly elected government of the day, like it or not.

tac

Yes indeed, there was a duly elected (British) government of the day in 1775. Why don't you go over to Oregon and start describing the American patriots as "rebels", and see how far you get.

tac foley

If all you have to offer is unpleasantness there seems to be little point in continuing it with any input from me.

'bye.

tac

Jellybaby1

tac foley wrote: »

Sir, you might not care for the use of the word, but in this context it is correct.

Rebel (noun) - a ​person who is ​opposed to the ​political ​system in ​their ​country and ​tries to ​change it using ​force : eg., The rebels took over the ​capital and set up a new ​government.

The government of the day was the established government - fact.

The vast majority of that established government did not support the efforts of the rebels. Nor, at the time, did the majority of the population - another two facts.

tac

Very true, or ait could also be said they were wrestling the country from the grasping fingers of Britain. Whichever words you use, they did not have an overwhelming mandate from the population to do what they did. Brave, I said, yes, but I could also add foolhardy given the overwhelming odds against them. The British army against a few thousand, really bad odds.

The Chieftain wrote: »

That is to concede that the British were a legitimate government in Ireland, which is not so. But in any case, successful revolutionaries are no longer such, by virtue of their success. And while they may have lost an initial battle, the Irish revolutionaries were eventually successful.

One important analogy I would put forth is that with the US revolution. The Americans are variously described as patriots, Americans, or colonials, but never as rebels. If it is the standard for the the US, I see no reason not to apply the same to ourselves.

So you are saying what is good enough for America, is good enough for us? I would not agree with you. Particularly seeing what's coming at the moment.

tac foley wrote: »

Notwithstanding your POV, the government of the day was the duly elected government of the day, like it or not.

tac

Precisely! Thanks tac.

hognef

tac foley wrote: »

Sorry - SE = Sweden and SF = Finland in international abbreviations. Sverige and Suomi/Finland, in fact.

Like you see on trucks and cars? I guess you see very few of these in Ireland, but they are very common here on mainland UK.

tac

Off topic, but Swedish vehicles actually use S. Finnish ones use FIN (though I think they have used SF in the past).

SE is the two-letter ISO code for Sweden, and is also their Internet TLD name. Finland is FI in both systems.

tac foley

Yes you are right, but my neighbour, who is Finnish and has a 2014 BMW, has SF on the back of his car.

tac

The Chieftain

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

Very true, or ait could also be said they were wrestling the country from the grasping fingers of Britain. Whichever words you use, they did not have an overwhelming mandate from the population to do what they did. Brave, I said, yes, but I could also add foolhardy given the overwhelming odds against them. The British army against a few thousand, really bad odds.



So you are saying what is good enough for America, is good enough for us? I would not agree with you. Particularly seeing what's coming at the moment.



Precisely! Thanks tac.

International norms: The American example has been there for over 200 years. To dismiss it because of a non-related, transient political contest is absurd. If you don’t like the US example, then adopting standard international practice might be more to your taste? The founders of all the countries of Southern and Central America, as well as Mexico, are today heroes and patriots, not “rebels”. The only country I know of where the pejorative language of the colonizer is still widely misused is Ireland.

Mandate: You have this point reversed. It is the Union which was without poplar mandate from start to finish. The Irish Parliament voted against the Union in 1799, but it occurred anyway, by corrupt and illegal means. By 1916, democratic methods had failed to prevent or undo the Union for a period of 117 years. Yes, 117 years. If that alone is not an absolute justification for revolution then I don’t know what is.

Existing governments of the day: Revolutions are made against an existing government, so what you say is just tautology.

In conclusion, the patriots of 1916 were on the right side of history. Today, the right to national self-governance, free from colonial subjugation and dominance is recognized as fundamental by the UN. That some in 2016 still defend the indefensible and brand them as mere “rebels” astounds me.

Jellybaby1

My choice of one word has obviously enraged you. This is obviously of a more personal interest to you than it is to me. I do not see a point in any further discussion as it has taken the thread off my original topic, in which you seem to have absolutely no interest. Perhaps you should start a new topic on the subject of pensions for the members of Cumann na mBan as I am sure it would be of interest.

The Chieftain

Jellybaby1 wrote: »

My choice of one word has obviously enraged you. This is obviously of a more personal interest to you than it is to me. I do not see a point in any further discussion as it has taken the thread off my original topic, in which you seem to have absolutely no interest. Perhaps you should start a new topic on the subject of pensions for the members of Cumann na mBan as I am sure it would be of interest.

It is not so much your use of a single word, as your defense of the same. Having made such a defense you can hardly complain if your arguments get answered.

Manach

Mod Note:
Discussion of terminology which was used during the period in question is drawing the discussion somewhat off topic. Please consider that particular tangent closed.

K-9

I had heard a few of the Indian national students studying at UCD joined the Volunteers in 1914, don't know if any were in the GPO or elsewhere for the rising.

V.V Giri was the most famous, taught by Thomas McDonagh at UCD, went to be President of India in 1969.

It says on his wiki page that he expelled from Ireland in 1916 for links with the Rising, I hadn't known that previously. As to what role he played, it doesn't say.

Jellybaby1

I wonder if there were any newspaper reports at the time. Unfortunately I no longer have a sub to the Newspaper archives so I can't check it out. Would it be such a far-fetched idea? Particularly when you consider the 1857 Rebellion in India. With all the history talks going on this year I am finding that there is a lot of hidden history I had never heard of. The Swede and the Finn is one such story. Wonder what else I will discover this year.

K-9

I'd heard about it on talking history, must have been a book out about it. There was a lot of anti-India sentiment in the 1910's in London, so a good few students went elsewhere to study. As you say, a good few of the Indian students would have been anti-colonial so sympathetic to the Volunteers etc.

DeV knew Giri personally according to the Wiki page so he may well have played some part in the Rising. Early experiences like that may have shaped DeV later recognising minority religions in the constitution.

pinkypinky

All of the INA 1916 content is free this month.

http://1916.irishnewsarchive.com/

Jellybaby1

Great! Didn't realise that.

Stojkovic

K-9 wrote: »

Early experiences like that may have shaped DeV later recognising minority religions in the constitution.

Only on paper.

Manach

K-9 point on the connection between the Rising and India is well made, given that they took this as a precedence and latter on used the1936 constitution as a template.

Bob Z

It's a funny story