DMR or Yaesu Fusion

gerry sat

A question ?

What would you's think is the best digital mode to setup,
I,ve looked at Fusion (Yaesu) and DMR (Motorola Kenwood)

From what I have read Fusion seems the better, and a excellent price, Base station 600 euro, DMR 2000 euro.

Yaesu fusion is in the Limerick area ? but no DMR as far as I know anywhere else.

I know DMR on two sites in Northern Ireland, but seem a closed setup ?, registering radio's, no Call signs just ID's, so as far as I can see, more of a cheap way to talk, but much cheaper than Yaesu Fusion radio's.

Regards,

EI-6-HGB

GekkePrutser

Wow that's a complicated question. It deserves a complicated answer Because I don't think there is one mode that is 'the best' at anything.

From the 3 currently major digital modes, each has (in my view) their pros and cons. Of these I've used only D-Star and DMR regularly and I have radios for both.

D-Star (You didn't mention it but I thought I'd include it as it is the oldest ham digital voice mode) is the most mature in terms of network. At the start there was only Icom's network and repeaters but since the homebrew scene came online some 'fights' occurred in terms of competing unconnected networks and repeater styles (REF, XREF, DCS etc). This seems to be mostly over now, resulting in most repeaters being able to talk to each other. But the cons are the single-vendor setup (*) with high pricing for handsets/mobiles and early codec that isn't as good as the other modes. Also, D-Star lacks a dedicated voice-only and data-only mode, requiring an operator to 'kerchunk' the entire reflector just to transmit a DPRS beacon. The protocol is said to be 'open source' but the only specs available are a single page with some ambiguous remarks. It has been fully reverse engineered now however, excluding the voice codec of course. D-Star has full callsign routing (even international, it will route your call to the 'last seen' repeater) but you do need to register your call with proof of license before your callsign is accepted. This is an easy process however.

DMR really shines with its two TDMA channels (a feature which C4FM is slated to have in the future but will never offer on currently-selling radios). This way one operator can join a worldwide reflector while another group can have their local skeg, all at the same time. It doesn't really have a dedicated data mode but it does offer text messaging which d-star doesn't really. Another benefit is that it is truly multi-vendor: Not just Kenwood and Motorola like you mentioned but also Hytera and some Chinese manufacturers are available, which means low prices. The network seems to be medium-mature: There are still 2 main competing networks: Brandmeister and MARC (Motorola) which do not interconnect. Perhaps in other countries than the ones I know about the situation may be different. A drawback of DMR though is the fact that it was built for business radio, and as such does not allow callsign routing. Therefore the IDs as you mentioned are a built-in limitation of the system. There is an international registration database where you can sign up for a DMR ID and you can import your local country's callsign database into your radio so you can see the callsigns, but for many radio models the built-in callbook is too small for the entire country's worth when the mode really takes off.

Another substantial drawback of DMR is the fact that you can never program the radios from the front panel and they have no VFO: Everything must be done through the programming software. This is also a result of the business origins of this mode: Most national regulators prohibit business users being able to change frequencies etc on their radios. The business origins are also the cause of almost all DMR radios being exclusively single band (after all, few business users have allocations in multiple different bands)

One thing worth mentioning is that the firmware for one of the Chinese models has been cracked recently, which will probably lead to a lot of useful features on these models. There's already an unofficial 'scanning' feature available now (listening to 'any' DMR talkgroup without having the right IDs programmed). I think this offers some very interesting future possibilities, perhaps even multi-digital mode radios.

Finally there's C4FM Fusion. Currently with 1 concurrent call, in the future with TMDA dual channel. Fusion is the latest kid on the block, and was designed with HAM radio in mind, and as such has taken some pointers from the failures of its predecessors. But it has the most immature network, even Yaesu's own Wires-X is only in its infancy. Some other design choices are causing some issues: Such as the ability for a repeater to function in both FM Analog and digital mode. This apparently can't be turned off on the repeater side and causes regulatory difficulties in some countries (the Netherlands I know of in particular) due to the band plans having exclusive allocations for digital voice and analog repeaters. I personally also feel there's little benefit to it: While you can communicate with FM users, it does mean FM users are left in the cold when digital users are speaking among each other. I like radios being able to do dual-mode but the repeater not so much. Of course this is a matter of opinion.

It does have data-only, data+voice and voice-only mode, the latter using extra bandwidth for better voice quality. Which is very beneficial, if you've ever worked DMR or D-Star you'll know what I mean So that's a real plus in my opinion. Another plus is the inclusion of APRS functionality in most C4FM radios which is nice. They also have text messaging over C4FM worked out pretty well as far as I can see.

What's really stopping me from getting a C4FM radio is the lack of repeaters: In the Netherlands they're not around due to the licensing issue being sorted out, and the Limerick one is very vague. I emailed the Limerick radio club to ask which one it concerns (2m or 70cm) and they never got back to me, I couldn't find anything about it online either. I don't think they have it hooked up to the internet either otherwise I would have been able to see it on the C4FM reflector dashboards.

The reason I did get the D-Star and DMR radios is that I'm often in the Netherlands and I can use them there on the extensive repeater infrastructures they have for these modes. D-Star was the most popular until about 1.5 years ago until the driving forces behind it moved to DMR. I use them in Ireland sometimes with hotspots (DV-MEGA) but I don't use them much as it doesn't feel like 'real' radio. There is no D-Star or DMR repeater anywhere in the republic as far as I'm aware, though the North has both. From where I'm based (Galway) I can't reach any of them.

Another thing that put me off a bit was that the features Yaesu chose to promote are a bit too gimmicky for me (like sending pictures with an expensive addon accessory mike). Yaesu seems to have a way of doing this, like the old WIRES and ARTS modes on old Yaesu FM handsets that only caused problems with digital data bursts on the local repeaters while adding nothing useful.

Please note that the current low price of some Yaesu C4FM Radios / Repeaters is purely because of a Yaesu promotion to gain marketshare, I'm sure it will not last forever. The FT-1D dropped to about 50% of its price recently and I'm sure this is not forever. If the mode really takes off I expect Yaesu will take full advantage of this being another single-vendor mode.

By the way I didn't mention the license encumbrance of these modes as they all suffer from it, they all use AMBE codecs from DVSI (AMBE2020 for D-Star and AMBE3000 for DMR and C4FM IIRC)

So in short, I don't think any of them is "best". They all have their pros and cons. I personally I have a hunch that eventually DMR will win out due to the availability of cheap Chinese and second hand business use handsets and the fairly open protocol. Hopefully the radio vendors will introduce more "Ham-Friendly" models with on-radio programming and VFOs if the mode really takes off.

By the way, here's that registration page for D-Star and DMR.

(*) Kenwood sold a D-Star radio at one stage but it was a rebadged ICOM so I count this as single vendor anyway

thelordgod

Also if you are thinking of setting up a repeater you would need to apply for a license for it. Personally I think its a waste of time in Ireland as there are so few using VHF/UHF at the moment in analogue (never mind digital) and you are going to need someone to talk to as well which is the hard part. If you really want to go digital then you could set up a hotspot such as the dv4mini usb stick

hamradio.co.uk/sdr-software-defined-radio-helitron/helitron/helitron-dv4mini-usb-stick-for-d-star-and-dmr-pd-6097.php

and connect to the network using a digital handheld. It wont be any use for local chat unless someone else has a similar system but it would equate somewhat to echolink or irlp

gerry sat

GekkePrutser, Thanks for the info, very good information, which I have read online, but you put in plan english.
I,ve decided go with the fusion for the reasons which you have stated, also it's designed for us Hams, and Yaesu have a very good offer for the repeater as well.

I have the FT 991 which has fusion and I have also ordered FTM 100 mobile, as will be for testing as I will start the repeater over the next few months, as I will be applying for a licence over the next fortnight.

EI 6 HGB

gerry sat

Thelordgod,


Personally I think its a waste of time in Ireland as there are so few using VHF/UHF at the moment in analogue (never mind digital) and you are going to need someone to talk to as well which is the hard part.

Yes I agree, but we have to start somewhere with this new technology, and this is a learning curve for me as well.

EI 6 HGB

gerry sat

just a update :

Was down in Limerick the other day, and used the Fusion digital system on my rig, excellent quality sound, and a few nice features as well, i.e. : distance to my contact in KM.

The repeater switched over automatically when out of digital range, and no messing , it justed worked.

started TXing on analogue firsted, then press the digital button and digital transmission.

GekkePrutser

gerry sat wrote: »

just a update :

Was down in Limerick the other day, and used the Fusion digital system on my rig, excellent quality sound, and a few nice features as well, i.e. : distance to my contact in KM.

The repeater switched over automatically when out of digital range, and no messing , it justed worked.

started TXing on analogue firsted, then press the digital button and digital transmission.

Which repeater is it on? 2m or 70cm? And can you also link to reflectors worldwide? I don't know if they've hooked it up to the internet.

I'm tempted to buy a handset as it's the only digital mode I don't have yet, and I could use it with my DVMega hotspot as well. I saw the FT-1D is down to 260€ now.

gerry sat

GekkePrutser wrote: »

Which repeater is it on? 2m or 70cm? And can you also link to reflectors worldwide? I don't know if they've hooked it up to the internet.

I'm tempted to buy a handset as it's the only digital mode I don't have yet, and I could use it with my DVMega hotspot as well. I saw the FT-1D is down to 260€ now.

Was on 2metres, (145.725, EI2TAG) don't think it's connected unto a reflector, but I will be at the IRTS event next weekend, and the boys who installed the fusion system will be there, so hoping to find more info.

thelordgod

gerry sat wrote: »

Was on 2metres, (145.725, EI2TAG) don't think it's connected unto a reflector, but I will be at the IRTS event next weekend, and the boys who installed the fusion system will be there, so hoping to find more info.

The repeater is connected to the web via IRLP (analog) but the digital side is not. It may be in the future but it requires an internet connection on Tountinna. With so few using the repeater atm it's hard to justify spending money on an internet connection. Almost no-one uses IRLP on the Limerick repeater - 1 or 2 do on the Searg network.

GekkePrutser

thelordgod wrote: »

The repeater is connected to the web via IRLP (analog) but the digital side is not. It may be in the future but it requires an internet connection on Tountinna. With so few using the repeater atm it's hard to justify spending money on an internet connection. Almost no-one uses IRLP on the Limerick repeater - 1 or 2 do on the Searg network.

That's true, IRLP was hardly used here either. But with digital it's more natural to use the linking. In my experience (with Dstar and DMR in the Netherlands) almost nobody would use digital on the local repeater only, because most of its added value comes from the linking. Without it the only big benefit is being able to see the callsign and position of who's talking. Most local traffic in the Netherlands is still on FM.

Most repeaters would default to a nationwide reflector or talkgroup (depending on the technology used) and can be relinked through a menu on the radio. They also support callsign to callsign calling (without having to know which repeater the called party is using). There's websites where you can view activity and listen live to the reflectors. So there's some real nice benefits to it. Of course though if its the only one in the country so far there's nobody to link to yet so you're right, there isn't much point yet.

And I understand the difficulty of getting internet onto a highsite. We've had the same problem at our local repeater. With some digital modes like D-Star it's possible to place the internet gateway elsewhere within range of the repeater and retain full functionality, but with DMR it's not. I presume it also isn't possible with C4FM fusion. I don't know enough about it.

Edit: thanks to you both for your answers by the way! I'm still debating whether to get a radio. They all have APRS too which is a nice bonus, I've always wanted to have that in the car. But I think I might leave it for now A mobile which I'd want the most is still fairly expensive if you add up the extras like the remote head kit. But if C4FM takes off in Ireland I'll get one.

thelordgod

GekkePrutser wrote: »

That's true, IRLP was hardly used here either. But with digital it's more natural to use the linking. In my experience (with Dstar and DMR in the Netherlands) almost nobody would use digital on the local repeater only, because most of its added value comes from the linking. Without it the only big benefit is being able to see the callsign and position of who's talking. Most local traffic in the Netherlands is still on FM.

Most repeaters would default to a nationwide reflector or talkgroup (depending on the technology used) and can be relinked through a menu on the handset. They also support callsign to callsign calling (without having to know which repeater the called party is using). There's websites where you can view activity and listen live to the reflectors. So there's some real nice benefits to it.

But I understand the difficulty of getting internet onto a highsite. We've had the same problem at our local repeater. With some digital modes like D-Star it's possible to place the internet gateway elsewhere within range of the repeater and retain full functionality, but with DMR it's not. I presume it also isn't possible with C4FM fusion. I don't know enough about it.

Edit: thanks to you both for your answers by the way! I'm still debating whether to get a radio. They all have APRS too which is a nice bonus, I've always wanted to have that in the car. But I think I might leave it for now A mobile which I'd want the most is still fairly expensive if you add up the extras like the remote head kit. But if C4FM takes off in Ireland I'll get one.

A dmr handheld with the hotspot dongle is probably the way to go if you just want to use the linking capability.

There may be another Yaesu fusion repeater going online this year a bit further south but I won't give details yet as it has not been confirmed that this route is being taken yet (along with the licensing process). It's not for the digital capability - it's just a cheap system.

GekkePrutser

thelordgod wrote: »

A dmr handheld with the hotspot dongle is probably the way to go if you just want to use the linking capability.

There may be another Yaesu fusion repeater going online this year a bit further south but I won't give details yet as it has not been confirmed that this route is being taken yet (along with the licensing process). It's not for the digital capability - it's just a cheap system.

Thanks again, and yes that's what I'm doing right now. I have a DVMega hotspot which works super. I use it with DMR and D-Star. For me personally that's the best option anyway as I wouldn't want to bother a whole repeater with the Dutch talkgroups I use a lot - it wouldn't interest anyone else in Ireland. I was just debating the benefits of the system in general.

And yeah the price for the yeasu repeater controller is very good! I'm surprised how cheap it is for a professional repeater. I hope it helps to get the mode to take off. Perhaps when there's more of then it will generate some interest in a national network.

I'm looking forward to seeing the demo at next week's rally, I've never seen it in action.

deaglan169

i have to say i was sceptical to dmr and seen it as just more echolink clogging up the band, but i recently bit the bullet and got a motorola dmr handheld and have to say im a convert love it! audio is fantastic and coverage seems to better analogue in my opinion, im lucky in that i can rx 4 dmr repeaters, 2 from rubber duck when out mobile, the talkgroups and ability to have 2 qso's active at once is fantastic, the dmr id issue isnt so much an issue here in ei/gi as the user base is small at minute, it would be nice to see a dmr repeater in south to tap into, it can be set up cheaply with 2 pmr radios and an mmdvm interface

join "ham radio dmr ireland" on facebook for more of an insight

gerry sat

Screen Shot 2016-04-30 at 23.01.19.png

Got approval from Comreg today for the new repeater in the Dunkineely area.

It will be on 2 meters, will be using both analogue and Yeasu's Digital Fusion system.
Mast going up Monday so, will be ordering repeater and duplexers over the next month or so.

The call sign will be : EI-2-JPG

Regards Gerry
EI-6-HGB

gerry sat

10 Metre mast installed over the weekend.
2 Meter antenna ordered

sysconp1

I have purchased a DadyStar and a dedicated TM-D710e with a view to setting up a node as a gateway. Can anyone tell me what the process is for obtaining a gateway licence without the need for going a club to get one? I am keen to provide access for other amateurs in the Wicklow area, I am in Greystones.
Cheers
Andy EI2HWB

gerry sat

New 2 meter Repeater operational Donegal, Dunkineely, EI 2JPG Yaesu Digital Fusion and FM analogue.
145:150 TX
145:750 RX
Wire X will be setup over the next few weeks.

gerry sat

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vl9ByRnjJMc

gerry sat

Yaesu fusion with wires X now live :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vl9ByRnjJMc

Ubbquittious

gerry sat wrote: »

Screen Shot 2016-04-30 at 23.01.19.png

Got approval from Comreg today for the new repeater in the Dunkineely area.

It will be on 2 meters, will be using both analogue and Yeasu's Digital Fusion system.
Mast going up Monday so, will be ordering repeater and duplexers over the next month or so.

The call sign will be : EI-2-JPG

Regards Gerry
EI-6-HGB

Heading up that direction tomorrow so I'll have a go off it

GekkePrutser wrote: »

I wouldn't want to bother a whole repeater with the Dutch talkgroups I use a lot - it wouldn't interest anyone else in Ireland.

Twould interest me

So 3.5 years later what do ye think of the digital voice modes ?

DMR is cool but a real pain in the hole to setup and change to different repeaters and to be honest, apart from having the local repeater programmed in I’ll just use the open spot 3 for the rest, setting up repeaters and talk groups is a complete and utter joke on DMR.

I set up a friends FT-991 and FT-3D in minutes fusion is just amazing g compared to DMR and the audio is better + you don’t have to constantly turn up and down the volume on fusion like on DMR.

I haven’t used D-star yet but read it’s also a pain to set up.

Really impressed with fusion it’s just so simple, no programming, just hit wires-x and you’re done!

The southern Ireland repeater network is great I can’t believe there is still no digital repeater in Dublin.