What am I entitled to know?

amy1plus2

I've been involved in an issue in my workplace. I basically left at a time that I was supposed to be there. Although this is very regular and common custom and practice, I was "caught" doing it by management so I have been the subject of a formal investigation and now as a result i have been asked to attend a formal meeting. I have contacted and am awaiting a reply from my Union rep, but my queries are as follows;
How many people are likely to attend the meeting from my employer's side?
Am I entitled to know in advance what type of action I am facing, ie, warning or dismissal?
I'm extremely anxious about this and would appreciate any answers or insight...

Asmooh

"I basically left at a time that I was supposed to be there."

Why did you do that if you knew you were supposed to be there?

amy1plus2

Regardless of why I left, I am seeking advice on the above questions...

allibastor

Generally the company will tell you who will be in attendance and will ask of you wish to have someone there also.

You will not really be forwarned about what action will come from this, it depends on how severe the company feel your action was. HR might have some indication on this, but if the company feel you did a gross mis-conduct you could be left go on the spot.

I would ask HR, I would also have some examples of times where people were meant to be there and were not. Dont throw people under the bus, but show it is not an isolated incident.

amy1plus2

Thanks Allibastor - I did have it in my head that if it came down to possibly being let go, then I would speak about other colleagues of mine that have done similar things, but like you said, I don't want to throw people under the bus... I spoke with management today to organise a suitable time and date for the meeting but it was never mentioned who would be in attendance. It is quite a small organisation and so I suppose I would be anxious to know who may be present as I most certainly do not want other colleagues knowing my personal business...

allibastor

Generally if it is a small company it will be the owner and someone else, possibly outside the company. How small is the place.

HAve you a contract which you could read on the rules of conduct.

Jayop

Go in and wear sack clothes. Take full responsibility, apologise and promise it'll never happen again. Personally I wouldn't go making excuses that other people do it so I should get away with it too. If you're lucky they'll feel you're genuine and will give you another chance.

Good luck.

amy1plus2

I have already been asked for a formal report of what happened, which I gave, and in which I accepted full responsibility and was extremely apologetic. So it has now been handed to my manager's manager if you will. I have read over the terms of conduct and the policies for grievances and disciplinary action. i suppose I just don't know if the act is deemed "gross misconduct" or not. So I am trying to prepare as much as possible before my meeting. thanks for your replies so far.

stoplooklisten

amy1plus2 wrote: »

I have already been asked for a formal report of what happened, which I gave, and in which I accepted full responsibility and was extremely apologetic. So it has now been handed to my manager's manager if you will. I have read over the terms of conduct and the policies for grievances and disciplinary action. i suppose I just don't know if the act is deemed "gross misconduct" or not. So I am trying to prepare as much as possible before my meeting. thanks for your replies so far.

If you are getting paid for the time and where not there it could be considered theft by the company.

allibastor

What do you work as and why were you gone.

Not being nosey, but for anyone here to give a good advice we would need to know.

amy1plus2

I actually would rather not get into where I work as I feel it would be too much information to give. At this point I will just await advice from my union rep. Many thanks again for all advice.

allibastor

Why ask in the first place then.


To be fair, if you work in a key or critical role or have responsilbilty to be there etc you will be fecked.

If it is a large store where your presence is not mission critical you might get a warning. Simple sense will tell you which.

endacl

Look up the company's policy document. It'll be in there.

1hnr79jr65

If you say to them in the formal meeting that it is indeed a "common practice" or have done in the report, then be very prepared to answer how many times you have done this before.

It could be seen as theft by deception from the company by being clocking in for pay while not being on site during required work hours.

seamus

allibastor wrote: »

Why ask in the first place then.

To be fair, if you work in a key or critical role or have responsilbilty to be there etc you will be fecked.

If it is a large store where your presence is not mission critical you might get a warning. Simple sense will tell you which.

This.

If the company is liable to lose relatively large amounts of money due to you not being where you're supposed to be, this is a big issue. Think about someone who's supposed to be monitoring large transactions in some system.

If there's a potential legal or PR liability issue due to you not being there, that's a big issue. Such as quality control on a production line.

If there's a health and safety risk to other employees due to you not being there, then that's a big issue.

But if the only issue caused is the fact that they were a little short-staffed or an email was missed, then I wouldn't expect them to make a very big deal out of it.


That said, you say this is something which is habitual. It's possible the company has identified the worst offenders and is going to fire them to make an example for everyone else. In these kinds of circumstances, they often target popular and otherwise honest employees, as that has the biggest shock on everyone else.

jack presley

If they do "sack you on the spot", remember even in cases of gross misconduct where the evidence is beyond reasonable doubt, the employer must follow certain procedures in dismissals and the employee has certain rights.

I can't remember all of them but you have the right to be represented at the hearing, the right to appeal and a few more that I'm sure can be googled pretty quickly.

allibastor

seamus wrote: »

This.

If the company is liable to lose relatively large amounts of money due to you not being where you're supposed to be, this is a big issue. Think about someone who's supposed to be monitoring large transactions in some system.

If there's a potential legal or PR liability issue due to you not being there, that's a big issue. Such as quality control on a production line.

If there's a health and safety risk to other employees due to you not being there, then that's a big issue.

But if the only issue caused is the fact that they were a little short-staffed or an email was missed, then I wouldn't expect them to make a very big deal out of it.


That said, you say this is something which is habitual. It's possible the company has identified the worst offenders and is going to fire them to make an example for everyone else. In these kinds of circumstances, they often target popular and otherwise honest employees, as that has the biggest shock on everyone else.

Agree.

Some places i worked in before, petrol stations and the like will give you a chewing out, but move on.

Others where your presence is key will not. simple as that. hence why i asked what you worked at, not where you work BTW.

Colser

Could it be a case of them knowing that this was a common practice and they are going to use you as an example? How was this not spotted by management all along or was it a case that they were turning a blind eye to it or even doing it themselves?

Has anyone else done it since you were "caught" as Id be surprised if others dont know about it ,these things leak very quickly in all companies regardless of size?

Id expect that you can bring one person with you,a union rep probably.I doubt that you will be dismissed as it should have been spotted earlier but this will only be an issue if you bring up about the others.

endacl

amy1plus2 wrote: »

Thanks Allibastor - I did have it in my head that if it came down to possibly being let go, then I would speak about other colleagues of mine that have done similar things, .

I wouldn't. It'd be quite a juvenile position to take, and would be seen as such. You're not responsible for your colleagues' conduct. Only your own.

allibastor

endacl wrote: »

I wouldn't. It'd be quite a juvenile position to take, and would be seen as such. You're not responsible for your colleagues' conduct. Only your own.

Not in a case of trying to deflect your behavior, but pointing out it is common practices, therefore not a key issue.

Going in saying it like a child will get no-where, but something along the lines of " we use mobile headsets to be on calls" or something like that may help.

livedadream

amy1plus2 wrote: »

I've been involved in an issue in my workplace. I basically left at a time that I was supposed to be there. Although this is very regular and common custom and practice, I was "caught" doing it by management so I have been the subject of a formal investigation and now as a result i have been asked to attend a formal meeting. I have contacted and am awaiting a reply from my Union rep, but my queries are as follows;
How many people are likely to attend the meeting from my employer's side?
Am I entitled to know in advance what type of action I am facing, ie, warning or dismissal?
I'm extremely anxious about this and would appreciate any answers or insight...

Best practice is:
You receive a letter asking you to attend a meeting, letter needs to have the names of who will be attending why you are being asked to attend a meeting and will advise you that you can bring a person with you.

unfortunately from a HR point of view it doesn't really matter if everyone else breaks the rule, the facts are you left, you knew you shouldn't have and you got caught.

Depends on what you work as and where you went but I dont foresee you being dismissed if you have an unblemished record.

Listen to you union rep be honest and dont use the 'well everyone else is doing it excuse', your a grown up.

livedadream

sorry that posted too soon and it wont let me edit it,
the everyone else is doing it you will be asked to name names and be prepared to answer how many times you have done it and why.


on a more serious note you are looking at:

potential breach of contract
insurance issues eg being off the premises
health and safety issues
legal implications in regards to
quality
theft (if you fill out or clock in or out you are looking at falsifying documents and even then if you were paid for the time its pretty serious)

something simliar happened when i worked in a factory, the best way i can explain it apart from what you did is stupid and you know it is, (this example is old and dramatic but i wanted to scare the ****e outta a young girl who thought going for a snog in her car with her boyfriend when she should be at work was a good idea)

if there was a fire, and you knew the lad on the fire engine whos job it was to check the building, your fire rep would say we have John stuck in the building hes not out here so must still be inside coz he is at work today. the guy has to find you in a burning building and youve buggered off somewhere coz you cant be bothered. would you be able to look him in the eye again.

in regards to dismissal it would be severe but it depends on your current records and what level of responsibility you have.

Tot he people saying they are making an example of you, they cant do that, everyone has to be treated the same, if they sack you and no one else that was caught and you all have clear records take them to the EAT

davo10

Ok, first of all op you need to carefully read your contract. Whatever procedures are laid out in it, the company must follow.

Secondly, the result of your disciplinary meeting can be "up to and including dismissal", the employer can inform you of the highest possible sanction which can be applied, they cannot say anything less as this would imply that they have already considered/decided on a sanction prior to you being given an opportunity to respond to the allegations. Usually there is a clause allowing for immediate termination is case of gross misconduct but that does not mean that gross misconduct is the only reason for which you can be sacked provided procedure is followed.

Who you can bring will be set out in your contract, usually a co worker or union rep, some companies prohibit legal representation at disciplinary meeting but do allow at appeals.

It will typically be your manager plus someone from HR or higher management.

Just a few points to consider, just because something is common practice or custom among employees does not mean it is allowed by management.

Also, consider, in the future you may have to work with some of your current colleagues at another location or have to work with people they know. If you "throw others under a bus" this may have consequences for you down the line.

Op, if you have been there less than one year then you do not have the benefit of the EAT nor the Unfair Dismissals Act. You have admitted to being AWOL so you now have to take your medicine. If the company follow procedure, it may be very difficult for you to avoid sanction.

_Brian

We shouldn't be talking unfair dismissals here at all. OP could be dismissed as this can be seen as a gross misconduct and so the employer can skip across the usual discipline points and go straight for dismissal.

Don't start throwing others under the bus. It will make you look desperate and petty, remember you can appeal the dismissal but if you go shouting your mouth off then this option is out.

I'd say start the meeting by fessing up and apologising. I hope it goes well for you but every action has an expected risk, the risk you took is being called out.

Jen44

if its a public sector job i wouldn't worry its damn near impossible to sack someone!!