A friend in need

SarahMollie

Hi Boardsies,

I've a friend who I don't know how to help anymore. Lets call her Alice.

I met Alice at college. Shes from a pretty well off family, and is now in her early thirties. Shes never managed to get things going employment wise, but her family helped her out in buying a small house, so at least she has some independence (albiet, its within a 5 min walk of both her parents house and her sisters house - not exactly cut the apron strings)

Shes got a really good degree and a masters (both 1.1) however she seems to only want to accept her "dream job", and therefore is constantly disappointed. Its all just gone on a little too long now, and as a friendship group we've been a bit worried about her for the past few years.

She just seems to totally lack flexibility. She's had a few jobs and done a lot of volunteering and interning and is always talking about further study (although this hasn't happened). Shes now a PA for a small finance firm and has reduced her hours to 3 days a week. She constantly talks about being unhappy in her job but makes no move to change. We've all offered to help, forwarded on posting of jobs where we work as they arise, but there is always a reason why she refused. Doesnt want to work for a big company etc, etc. but she'd never tried. How do you know if you don't try - and its clear she's unhappy where she is as she never stops going on about it. The area she's decided she's interested in is hard to get started in - she doesnt seem to value the advice of starting in a not so ideal role and moving around within a company once you're a bit more established.

She's also been suffering from a mysterious illness for the past 3 years or so. No diagnosis, just claims to constantly be tired. She's following all sorts of alternative therapies and special diets (parents footing medical bills) and has seen every specialist going, had all possible scans, blood tests, you name it. At this point we mostly think she's possibly depressed but if you try to talk to her she shuts it down quickly and won't talk to you for weeks on end.

When we were younger she was always the one who always had a boyfriend, but she's been single now for the past 4/5 years. We try to encourage her, but no joy, she's declared that she's going to be a cat lady. She won't do online dating or go on a blind date if we set one up for her with someone trusted. Its like she's just given up. She was never like this before.

She's so lovely and so pretty but she's basically disqualified herself from life at this point. She is also now really hard to get out at all. We try to organise girls nights, brunches, days in town or whatever and she cancels at the last minute - often not even making an excuse. Sometimes, she says shes too unwell to come out, even somewhere local for a cup of tea. When we offer to call around so she literally has to make zero effort, she says "thanks but I'd rather you didnt". She only comes out when she feels like it, which is less and less frequent these days.

We all know shes capable of much more but its like her attitude is in the way. She always finds a way to say no, but then complains of being unhappy. If we try to talk to her she gets very short with us so its hard to push her.

Everyone else is moving on with their lives, moving up career wise and two of our group recently got engaged. I'm worried that the gulf between us and her is only going to get wider. I don't want her to be left behind.

How do you help someone who is cutting themselves off from the world?

Starokan

Its really nice to see that you and your friends care so much for her. In terms of what to do there is not a lot you can do really.

People change a lot over their lives and it seems to me that she is in a pattern that she has no will to break out of or perhaps she simply has no desire to break out of it. I suspect a lot of her lethargy may come from simply being handed everything, what would most of us have given for our parents to buy us a home and then foot our bills along the way. As a result laziness has become a way of living for her.

The longer she goes without starting on the career ladder the less likely she is to ever start, unless you have a specialist qualification without experience you start out low, she will probably never be able to cope with starting alongside people 10-15 years younger than her.

In terms of having a partner there really are a lot of people now for whom having a life partner is not something they wish to have. They are happier single, she may well be one of them

In terms of socially isolating herself I would guess that perhaps she is comparing herself to your lives or that she feels you all are view her life choices negatively.

It may be time for you guys to live and let live, stop sending her the job openings etc , stop trying to set her up with friends etc, you are imposing your view of life on her when the reality is her view seems to be different. It would not be easy for her to be with you all if she is constantly picking up the vibe that you all feel she is failing at life.

I am not trying to be harsh, I really do think its wonderful that you all care so much but perhaps a step back to just being friends and not focusing on life goals would help you all.

baby and crumble

Starokan wrote: »

It may be time for you guys to live and let live, stop sending her the job openings etc , stop trying to set her up with friends etc, you are imposing your view of life on her when the reality is her view seems to be different. It would not be easy for her to be with you all if she is constantly picking up the vibe that you all feel she is failing at life.

This is pretty much it. You can't force anything on anyone, and the person themselves has to instigate their own change. Being a friend isn't about pushing your opinions on someone else it's about supporting them in the choices they make as much as possible. She's making her choices (or hey perhaps she has chronic fatigue, it seeps into everything and is very hard to diagnose and can look an awful lot like laziness if you know nothing about it) and you have to respect that she's a grown woman.

SarahMollie

Starokan wrote: »

Its really nice to see that you and your friends care so much for her. In terms of what to do there is not a lot you can do really.

People change a lot over their lives and it seems to me that she is in a pattern that she has no will to break out of or perhaps she simply has no desire to break out of it. I suspect a lot of her lethargy may come from simply being handed everything, what would most of us have given for our parents to buy us a home and then foot our bills along the way. As a result laziness has become a way of living for her.

The longer she goes without starting on the career ladder the less likely she is to ever start, unless you have a specialist qualification without experience you start out low, she will probably never be able to cope with starting alongside people 10-15 years younger than her.

In terms of having a partner there really are a lot of people now for whom having a life partner is not something they wish to have. They are happier single, she may well be one of them

In terms of socially isolating herself I would guess that perhaps she is comparing herself to your lives or that she feels you all are view her life choices negatively.

It may be time for you guys to live and let live, stop sending her the job openings etc , stop trying to set her up with friends etc, you are imposing your view of life on her when the reality is her view seems to be different. It would not be easy for her to be with you all if she is constantly picking up the vibe that you all feel she is failing at life.

I am not trying to be harsh, I really do think its wonderful that you all care so much but perhaps a step back to just being friends and not focusing on life goals would help you all.

Thanks, yeah I suppose there is little we can do but wanted to be sure!

Regarding her attitude - yes she is extremely fortunate. She does have a small mortgage on the property but theres no way she could afford it or anything like it if she was doing it by herself. Its not free but heavily subsidisied I suppose.

I'm not sure its pure lazyness as she worked hard all through college to achieve good grades (better than most of us!) and has taken internships etc. I think the economic crash came at the worst time for her, and she hasnt got the flexibility to re-calibrate to her current situation and do something else.

Like we all took a hit back then (finished college in 2008) and no one really started out in the job that we'd always envisaged but we've adapted by either getting to our original goals the long way, or doing something else and learning to be happy with that.

She kept taking internships, hoping to get employment in that area but no joy. She then had a 2 year contract with a small NGO but it was very low paid and had no prospect of progression. Now she's PA in this small finance house (which she got because one of the owners is a friend of her parents) but she hates it. I think at this stage it might actually be possible to get a job in this area now but between her lack of confidence at this point and this mysterious illness, shes given up trying.

Another factor that I think doesnt help is that her younger sister, who has always been a bit feckless, really has had everything fall right for her. She was the one who dropped out of college, and was always traveling, and always changing her mind. She decided she wanted to be a pilot (parents paid of course), and met her husband on the training course, and now they have a little girl, big house, great job without ever really planning on it.

Alice was always the sensible one, 2 years older and did everything by the book, got the grades, but it just never happened for her.

I think maybe being so fortunate means she lacks the killer instinct to go out and make things happen for herself, rather than being purely lazy. Even though she hates her job, she does seem to work hard at it and is well liked by her employer.

I totally take your point about not pushing her regards jobs/dating anymore - I think we all know its futile at this point. We tried the dating one again recently only because online dating seems more socially acceptable these days, but got short shrift. Will not be broaching that subject again!

I'd be less worried about her if she was still getting out and meeting people even if her career/lovelife are a bit in the doldrums.

Its the shutting down/giving up thats so sad to watch.

LeeLooLee

It sounds like her parents enabling her attitude of only wanting to accept a 'dream job'. It's not healthy. If she didn't have them footing the bills, she'd have to take what she could get, like the rest of us and just get on with it. I have a friend similar to Alice, and it's so frustrating, especially because she looks down on me for taking what she considers 'lowly' jobs. I keep trying to tell her that if she was hungry or couldn't pay the rent, she'd take what she could get as well! I personally could never take money from my family while I faffed around working a few hours a week or waiting for something I really wanted. It just wouldn't feel right. I'm an adult. It's frustrating being under-employed when you know you're capable of much better, but that's life. Maybe if her parents stopped handing her everything, she'd have a better work ethic, no?

PinkLemonade

I would be highly uncomfortable with my friends discussing my personal life in this detail with each other let alone with strangers on the internet. Its shocking that you think it's appropriate to be this absorbed in her life.

ahnow

Parts of your post are coming across as judgemental, especially the comments about her parents paying for things, her not cutting the apron strings and the sister having had everything falling into her lap. She's probably picking up on this and might be part of the reason she's cutting off from you.

CaraMay

I really don't see how her sister is feckless for leaving college to become a pilot?!?!

Some people just don't want to be social op. Has any one person sat down with her. She may think the group are pouncing on her.

The other thing is that ye treat her like her parents do. You allow her be rewarded with little / no effort on her part. She's used to life coming to her for free. Why not let her work to maintain the friendships for a change.

Keane2baMused

OP have you considered this girl could have depression?.

Just to add you did mention that I see but it doesn't sound like ye are genuinely considering this as a possibility. Especially when you mention her 'mystery illness'.

Augme

OP if I had the choice between spending time on my own or with you I'd much prefer to spend time on my own. Maybe your friend feels the same?

LegacyUser

Have to be honest, I can't quite believe you don't see how judgemental you're being. You've basically listed in a long drawn out way how this woman doesn't measure up to you, your friends and her sister. Do you not think all this is coming across to her? You have no right to make judgements or feel sorry or try and help her out of her 'rut' if she hasn't come to you and directly asked for your advice or help! It will make her feel you think she's a loser! If she has been helped out with a nice house, and is able to work 3 days a week, well that's her choice and I suspect a lot of people would choose the same if they could! It's nearly coming across slight envy of her easy life, because you feel yourself and the rest your group are all goal orientated and have to slog away and you think why should she have it so easy? Well she chooses to live her life like this, and if she's complaining about her job she knows she is the only one to change that, when she really wants to.

I would actually hate if I felt my friend thought about me like this, pitied me, and was sending me jobs because I would feel patronised and judged about my life, when I didn't ask for that. You should support her and make her feel good about her life. She may not be happiest right now, then make her feel happier, not trying to make her see what she's capable of and basically questioning why she's not as successful as you. If she wants to hold out for a dream job let her! She may never get one but so what, you're not her parents, you're her friend and a little empathy and nonjudgemental understanding and listening will go a long way in bringing her back to the friendship.

njs030

Boards doesn't allow medical advice, but there is plenty of illnesses that are very hard to diagnose and usually it takes seeing the right doctor to finally get help.
Extreme tiredness, feeling unhappy with no inclination to change and not wanting to socialise can be symptoms of many things.
The way you wrote about her being unwell was very patronising and no wonder she refuses to discuss it with you! How dare you as a group decide she has depression when clearly her doctors and herself don't agree! You sound interfering and unsupportive

Perhaps you and your friends group need to stop pushing your way of life onto this girl and allow her, as an adult, to choose her own path.

SarahMollie

Honestly, I'm taken aback at some of the comments, but maybe on Boards I should expect nothing less.

By trying to explain her situation as clearly as I can, I'm being judgmental. If i gave no detail, how could I be expected to get any decent advice. I wanted to lay things out without giving my opinion to see what came back, so cheers for the vitriol and personal comments from certain posters.

This is what I actually think.

An early poster said it sounded like lazyness, but I genuinely don't think thats it at all. I'm convinced that its something more complicated. I'm not going to outright say she's clinically depressed because I'm not qualified to do so. I think shes almost certainly depressed in the layman's meaning of the word though.

Chronic Fatigue/ME has definitely also crossed my mind, but from reading up about it, doctors who are willing to diagnose either condition are few and far between as its not generally accepted in the medical community. Also, even if diagnosed, there is little, if anything that can be done. As I mentioned previously, she is in the fortunate position of being able to see lots of different doctors and consultants, and so far, no diagnosis. From my unqualified perspective, this is what I think is mostly likely, with maybe a touch of depression (not clinical necessarily) because of the illness dragging on for so long with no definitive answers - I think that would get anyone down.

I think she's doing everything possible to improve her health. Shes cut out alcohol completely and is following a vegan diet with other special conditions. This is apparently helping somewhat, but in itself it seems to be curtailing certain social situations, as going out to eat is now very limited. That said, I'm always on the lookout for vegan friendly eatery's that we can go to together so she doesnt have to struggle in a normal restaurant.

Regarding sending jobs, this has stopped now. Myself and another girl who would have been close to her both work for large companies that don't advertise outside of their own websites, don't use recruiters etc. So if we saw something on the internal jobs boards that we thought she might like, we'd send it on. This was maybe twice each, total of 4 jobs, so hardly a bombardment. We've also suggested maybe joining LinkedIn, this also didnt happen, but it hasn't been pushed.

Again, I don't actually care what she does for a living, but its upsetting as a friend to hear how much she hates her job and how she feels like there are no prospects to progress where she is. Its always the first thing she mentiones when we meet up, how much she hates her job and wants to leave but doesnt feel she can. Shes smart with great qualifications, but it just hasn't really happened for her, and now with her health its only going to get harder.

Also, I didnt say her sister was feckless for becoming a pilot. Also she didnt quit college to become a pilot. She quit, faffed around for a bit, and then later decided to become a pilot. I said she'd never been the one taking life seriously, but the second she decided to, it seems things worked out well for her both personally and professionally. This is in stark contrast to the continuous effort made by my friend, who just doesnt seem to have had the bounce of the ball in her favour at all. I think that must get you down on some level.

Also her being single isnt a problem, its just a contrast with what she was like before. As I mentioned shes extremely pretty IMO and always had a boyfriend the first 6/7 years we were friends. I think her reluctance to per herself out there now is just another symptom of her lack of confidence. I don't think her shutting herself off romantically is her natural state, I think its because she's feeling low for the above reasons.

My worry is that its a vicious circle. If she got a break work wise and was more satisfied in her job then I think that would lift her spirits. Or alternatively if she met someone she really clicked with that might give her a bit of a lift.

I don't think there is much we can do other than just continuing to make an effort with her. As I mentioned, shes can back off very easily, so it can be hard to talk to her without risking her shutting down for a few weeks.

SAMTALK

Augme wrote: »

OP if I had the choice between spending time on my own or with you I'd much prefer to spend time on my own. Maybe your friend feels the same?

Think this is a bit harsh on OP.

I see a group of friends who are worried about Alice and are trying to help her .

I would think if they walked away from her and Alice turned out to have some issues then it would make them look bad IMO

Emme

OP, I know this is completely off the wall but is it possible your friend was raped or assaulted by an acquaintance and is depressed as a result? Perhaps this is why she doesn't want to date or socialise much.

I was assaulted on a date years ago and it had a significant effect on me for years. I tried to deny to myself it happened but I gradually went into a decline and stopped socializing. It didn't affect my work (I couldn't afford that) but it definitely affected my friendships and my social life. I would agree to go out, get ready, put on make up but then panic and decide not to go out. It drove my friends mad. I eventually got help through the rape crisis centre but it took me years to get over the assault and associated flashbacks.

I don't know how you could bring this up with her because it may not have happened and even if it did, if she in denial she won't want to admit it to herself especially if she knew the person concerned.

She could also have chronic fatigue which is extremely difficult to diagnose.

I presume she has had a full thyroid check and has had her adrenal function checked.

zoobizoo

Hi OP,

when I read your post, it soudned to me like she has a complete lack of self confidence and that seeps into all parts of her life.

The lack of confidence disables her to take control / ownership of her behaviour and decisions.

Tiredness like that can be as a result of stress but also of boredom (as well as depression)

She got her Masters because she has followed what was expected of her as a child, teen, late teen and young adult. Now, without that structure, it sounds like she finds it difficult to cope - because she may never have learned the tools to cope and to develop into an adult.

What to do?
Has she every been to a therapist to talk about her issues?
Could you suggest that she does?
You might also buy her a book called The Feeling Good Handbook... (it's full of handy tips and exercises) if you felt that this wouldn't alienate her.

Could you speak with her folks / siblings? I have seen people being enabled rather than helped by their parents in situations like this where they don't understnad that there is anything wrong at all

Keane2baMused

SarahMollie wrote: »

Honestly, I'm taken aback at some of the comments, but maybe on Boards I should expect nothing less.

By trying to explain her situation as clearly as I can, I'm being judgmental. If i gave no detail, how could I be expected to get any decent advice. I wanted to lay things out without giving my opinion to see what came back, so cheers for the vitriol and personal comments from certain posters.


Regarding sending jobs, this has stopped now. Myself and another girl who would have been close to her both work for large companies that don't advertise outside of their own websites, don't use recruiters etc. So if we saw something on the internal jobs boards that we thought she might like, we'd send it on. This was maybe twice each, total of 4 jobs, so hardly a bombardment. We've also suggested maybe joining LinkedIn, this also didnt happen, but it hasn't been pushed.

Again, I don't actually care what she does for a living, but its upsetting as a friend to hear how much she hates her job and how she feels like there are no prospects to progress where she is. Its always the first thing she mentiones when we meet up, how much she hates her job and wants to leave but doesnt feel she can. Shes smart with great qualifications, but it just hasn't really happened for her, and now with her health its only going to get harder.

Also, I didnt say her sister was feckless for becoming a pilot. Also she didnt quit college to become a pilot. She quit, faffed around for a bit, and then later decided to become a pilot. I said she'd never been the one taking life seriously, but the second she decided to, it seems things worked out well for her both personally and professionally. This is in stark contrast to the continuous effort made by my friend, who just doesnt seem to have had the bounce of the ball in her favour at all. I think that must get you down on some level.

I don't think there is much we can do other than just continuing to make an effort with her. As I mentioned, shes can back off very easily, so it can be hard to talk to her without risking her shutting down for a few weeks.

OP short of being her friend and listening to her when she needs an ear there is absolutely nothing else you can do. There should be no comparison between her and her sister, its really none of your business what she does or doesn't do.

I understand you may be concerned but you can't and should not keep pushing this. She is a grown woman and also presumably has a family.

Be her friend not her life coach/ recruitment consultant/therapist.

SarahMollie

Emme wrote: »

OP, I know this is completely off the wall but is it possible your friend was raped or assaulted by an acquaintance and is depressed as a result? Perhaps this is why she doesn't want to date or socialise much.

I was assaulted on a date years ago and it had a significant effect on me for years. I tried to deny to myself it happened but I gradually went into a decline and stopped socializing. It didn't affect my work (I couldn't afford that) but it definitely affected my friendships and my social life. I would agree to go out, get ready, put on make up but then panic and decide not to go out. It drove my friends mad. I eventually got help through the rape crisis centre but it took me years to get over the assault and associated flashbacks.

I don't know how you could bring this up with her because it may not have happened and even if it did, if she in denial she won't want to admit it to herself especially if she knew the person concerned.

She could also have chronic fatigue which is extremely difficult to diagnose.

I presume she has had a full thyroid check and has had her adrenal function checked.

Not that I know of, and TBH it would be a bit hard to ask in a roundabout way. I've not seen anything to suggest this. They rare occasion we get her on a night out, she doesn't seem afraid of men really, just you know yourself as you get that bit older, nights out tend to be more about girls sitting around drinking cocktails and less about going to coppers on the pull. But the odd time there are new men around, like maybe at a wedding, she's bright and chatty. I just feel like this is only happening maybe once a year at the moment, and the odds of meeting someone at that rate are slim.

I do think maybe she was affected more by her last relationship ending (even though she ended it). They were living together in the UK, she wasnt happy there and he couldnt move here career wise. He moved on very quickly and is now married and I think that stung a bit. She broke up with him because she said she wasnt convinced he was "the one" (although I'm not sure "the one" exists beyond RomComs). However this was about 18 months before she started to feel unwell etc so I'm not sure its connected.

Yes, shes been tested for every possible physical cause, thyroid, autoimmune disorders etc.

LegacyUser

OP beyond sitting down with her/emailing/texting her and casually saying that you've noticed she's not been coming out much lately and wondering is everything ok, and letting her know that you're 100% there for her, what else do you think you should be doing? That's all that is needed, and then go focus on your own life and other friends. I really don't understand the amount of detail into how she's doing so badly, the comparisons with her sister and the group, and all the analysis has got to do with you. She's your friend and yes she is different to what she used to be, as many people are as they get older, so if you meet just listen, cheer her up, but more than that stop the analysing. People hate that, they generally know what they need to do and want to fix their issues themselves, if and when they are ready. And if she thinks you may be of help she may ask, if you've told her you're there for her. If you think she's got lazy or whatever so be it, she's lazy, or has chronic fatigue syndrome, it is what it is, and she's looking after her health well enough.

SarahMollie

sam323 wrote: »

OP beyond sitting down with her/emailing/texting her and casually saying that you've noticed she's not been coming out much lately and wondering is everything ok, and letting her know that you're 100% there for her, what else do you think you should be doing? That's all that is needed, and then go focus on your own life and other friends. I really don't understand the amount of detail into how she's doing so badly, the comparisons with her sister and the group, and all the analysis has got to do with you. She's your friend and yes she is different to what she used to be, as many people are as they get older, so if you meet just listen, cheer her up, but more than that stop the analysing. People hate that, they generally know what they need to do and want to fix their issues themselves, if and when they are ready. And if she thinks you may be of help she may ask, if you've told her you're there for her. If you think she's got lazy or whatever so be it, she's lazy, or has chronic fatigue syndrome, it is what it is, and she's looking after her health well enough.

TBH i think most people know this level of detail about their friends lives. To be clear, I don't compare her life to her sisters, but she's made some comments about how her sister is "so spoiled" etc in the past, so my thinking is that she's conscious of it herself.

Well part of me wonders if we stopped trying with her, would she even notice at this point? Some in our group are losing patience with her cancelling all the time, shutting us out when we try to ask how she's doing, and basically being a recluse. While there is acceptance that she's not well, some of the girls have the opinion that her constant cancelling is just rude, especially if we plan to meet near her house in an effort to entice her to come out and she still cancels.

I'm not one for ending friendships easily, especially as were were very close at one point in time, but it feels like its just me and one other girl who even tries anymore.

I'm aware that this situation is beyond my control, I guess I was just wondering if people had been through similar with their friends and management to maintain the friendship.