Career Advise

pakb1ue

I am considering my options at my current position and wondering what I should do.

I am currently working for a financial services company building and maintaining an application written in Python (but using a lot of internal frameworks which are useless to me outside of the company) for the last 2.5 years. I started on €40k but I haven't got a bonus or pay raise in my time there and from talking to my manager I won't see a promotion for another two years thus no pay raise. The graduates who started the same time as me are now on a higher salary and a few got promotions this year. Prior to that I came through a graduate program in another financial services company were I worked on a Java based application (I mostly did bug fixes) but left the company after 2.5 years.

About 6 months ago I went for two jobs in around €55k. One was Python/Java role, passed two phone screens but didn't get the job after doing a 4 hour interview in their office. The other was a Ruby/Python role which they reached out to me on via Linkedin, passed two phone interviews but they gave me an assignment to do but I wasn't able to complete it.

I've been keeping an eye on the job market there hasn't been a whole lot of Python jobs and I was wondering should I go back to Java but the issue with that is I haven't touched the language since I started my current role and have forgotten everything. I'd like to get a job that would be both Python and Java so that I can spend time getting back to up speed with Java.

I've been speaking to recruiters and they have been telling me I can demand around €55k for a Python role but only €40-45k if I want to go for a Java role.

I have seen a few jobs in London which I am interested in but still a bit uneasy about moving to another city.

Am I wrong by trying to get back into a Java role or is it bad jumping from one language to another?

Atomic Pineapple

The fundamentals of programming are the same no matter what language you are using, if you want to get back into Java then start getting back into it in your own time.

Build an app of your own, build up a GitHub account which showcases your Java ability, contribute to open source projects etc...

Basically if your current company is limiting you then you need to up skill in your own time. This will show potential employers you are willing to put the effort in to keep up with new advances and to motivate yourself to keep your skills up to date.

OfflerCrocGod

The current company have no interest in promoting you or giving a raise. That's the most likely explanation for you still being on such a low wage after 2.5 years while others have motored on. That might be because you aren't good or it's because they think you will accept that treatment. In 6 months you have only applied for two jobs? You need to up that number, your current company won't give you what you want. You need to practice interviewing, it's a special skill in itself. Start applying for jobs, keep the volume low but steady, and accept that you may not get the position, take the interviews as training. €40K isn't that much you should eventually land a better paid position (interviews are a lottery imo so it may take some time).

14ned

pakb1ue wrote: »

I am considering my options at my current position and wondering what I should do.

I am currently working for a financial services company building and maintaining an application written in Python (but using a lot of internal frameworks which are useless to me outside of the company) for the last 2.5 years. I started on €40k but I haven't got a bonus or pay raise in my time there and from talking to my manager I won't see a promotion for another two years thus no pay raise. The graduates who started the same time as me are now on a higher salary and a few got promotions this year. Prior to that I came through a graduate program in another financial services company were I worked on a Java based application (I mostly did bug fixes) but left the company after 2.5 years.

So you're about five years out of uni, and have just 2.5 years of Python experience? That's barely out of junior programming land. I would have said €40k more than reasonable for that skill set, I personally would have thought 30-35k more appropriate.

I appreciate you won't compare yourself to the average, but to those you know. All I can say is that careers are lumpy, it may seem you are being left behind by your classmates, but believe me the tables can turn very dramatically given enough years. So I really wouldn't compare yourself to your classmates, try to compare yourself to the market average.

Also, is the work you do CV building? If so that's worth up to one third lower salary. I will accept contracts producing exclusively open source code for that sort of discount because it's portfolio building.

Finally, don't discount a pleasant if boring job, it's worth a good €20k/year to me not to deal with never ending forced deadlines imposed by management to extract maximum short term productivity. If your job is easy if boring and leaves you fresh enough to invest 15-20 hours per week in side projects outside work, that's easily worth a 50% pay reduction because you can spend that time improving yourself to the point where you never have to look for a job ever again because recruiters are literally throwing themselves at you.

pakb1ue wrote: »

About 6 months ago I went for two jobs in around €55k. One was Python/Java role, passed two phone screens but didn't get the job after doing a 4 hour interview in their office. The other was a Ruby/Python role which they reached out to me on via Linkedin, passed two phone interviews but they gave me an assignment to do but I wasn't able to complete it.

€55k is getting into senior developer land, and I base that statement on average salaries paid in Ireland rather than what people think is paid for a senior developer. It is a huge ask to hire someone with such a limited CV as yours for such high pay. I personally think you're already well rewarded for your current CV.

Take a look at http://sijinjoseph.com/programmer-competency-matrix/ and be honest: how many times do you land in Level 3? And by "land in", I mean you can reel off from memory, encyclopaedia like, details like the precise nanosecond latencies of each stage of the Intel Haswell architecture's memory subsystem in a typical high frequency financial trading server.

Those are the people who earn €70k+ in Ireland, and there aren't many of them.

pakb1ue wrote: »

I've been keeping an eye on the job market there hasn't been a whole lot of Python jobs and I was wondering should I go back to Java but the issue with that is I haven't touched the language since I started my current role and have forgotten everything. I'd like to get a job that would be both Python and Java so that I can spend time getting back to up speed with Java.

All the market metrics point to Python continuing its exponential climb and Java excluding Android continuing its slow decline. Java is a poor bet long run relative to alternatives.

I'll grant you though the Java market is the most liquid in Ireland right now.

pakb1ue wrote: »

I've been speaking to recruiters and they have been telling me I can demand around €55k for a Python role but only €40-45k if I want to go for a Java role.

Recruiters tell you whatever it takes to get you to bite. Whatever figures they quote you will be highly optimistic and for the top 5% of candidates.

Try instead http://www.morganmckinley.ie/article/it-2015-salary-survey-benefits-guide. A Python developer with less than three years experience would earn €28k-42k in Dublin. That sounds about right to me.

pakb1ue wrote: »

I have seen a few jobs in London which I am interested in but still a bit uneasy about moving to another city.

Am I wrong by trying to get back into a Java role or is it bad jumping from one language to another?

If you return to Java you will be considered at least two years out of date and it'll count against you for pay.

Had you at least been contributing constantly to a well known open source project written in Java during the past three years then it would be a totally different story.

I'd personally stick with Python (3 not 2), but start contributing to signature open source Python 3 projects to accelerate your CV building. There is Python 3 itself of course, but you'd probably get noticed quicker in something more sexy like RPython and PyPy and totally-wrong-but-oh-so-much-potential things like http://pypyjs.org/. Pyston, which is a Python compiler for LLVM, is looking especially hot right now - contributing significantly to that project has a good chance of eventually getting you a ton of headhunting offers with serious (six figures) money from Google et al.

But in the end you've got to make the commitment and invest the time to improve yourself over as many years as it needs. Training doesn't stop when you graduate, and you sure as hell can't count on your employer to do anything for you in Ireland.

Niall

CreepingDeath

14ned wrote: »

Take a look at http://sijinjoseph.com/programmer-competency-matrix/ and be honest: how many times do you land in Level 3? And by "land in", I mean you can reel off from memory, encyclopaedia like, details like the precise nanosecond latencies of each stage of the Intel Haswell architecture's memory subsystem in a typical high frequency financial trading server.

Those are the people who earn €70k+ in Ireland, and there aren't many of them.

Plenty of senior/principal engineers earning over €70k in Ireland.
But you'd be looking at least 10+ years experience with hard pay review negotiation if you stay in the one company or job hopping to step up each year.

One thing I would say to the OP... if you're comparing yourself against your classmates progress then where did you rank yourself in the class ?
If you were an average student then there were probably 10-20 people above you. So career and pay depend on the company & position, but also your skill attitude, hard work and ability to build a good working network of people within the company.

Java is still the preferred language for enterprise level software, so a large established company is more likely to use it.

But a lot of jobs these days are for either big data (hadoop, analytics, multi-threading, performance programming) or web skills like Javascript, JQuery, AngularJS, NodeJS etc.

While I tended to look down at/avoid the web end of things, it's a skillset that is very much in demand. Might be something to consider.

dazberry

pakb1ue wrote: »

I work for an American Investment Bank in Dublin and I get the following;

• 25 days leave - with the option to buy or sell 7 days and after 5 years you get 1 extra day off.
• Private Health care - Partner and up to 3 kids can be covered but there is a fee for add them but we are talking about less than €100 a month.
• Life Assurance - In the event of my death they will pay 8 times my salary to my beneficiaries but only 4 times if you don't have a partner.
• Pension - They pay in 6% then they will match anything I put into it up to 6% so you could have them paying in 12% and you putting in 6%.
• Lifestyle account - We have this account if we pay in €100 they will put in €50 and then we can make claims against it for anything that betters yourself in some way like driving lessons, gym membership, rental of sports equipment, entrance fees for sports events, cinema even the spa. There is a limit on it but it works out you can get an extra €1k a year if you put the max amount in.
• Lots of other buy into schemes like bike to work, dental cover, travel insurance etc.
  
• Bonus/raise depends on your rating at end of year and how much money is in the pot for your dept. From what I have heard its roughly 2-3% if you have performed well.

Sorry to drag this across from another thread, but obviously there is some form of performance rating each year - so what is the feedback you are getting, and if positive why are you not getting at least some form of bonus.

For people that have never worked in these sort of companies, my experience is that the performance reviews are often more political than actual, and as developers sometimes we don't feel comfortable in playing these political games, and as a result don't always get to capitalise on what should be a good review.

14ned wrote: »

So you're about five years out of uni, and have just 2.5 years of Python experience? That's barely out of junior programming land. I would have said €40k more than reasonable for that skill set, I personally would have thought 30-35k more appropriate.

In one sense I think this is being a bit unfair, to give the OP the benefit of the doubt they have five years experience - just that it's across two tools stacks. Of course all experience is not created equal, if in reality the OP is really 2.5 yr x 2 times (we've all met the guys with 10 year experience who in reality are more like 1 yr x 10 times) then of course they need to "make the commitment and invest the time", but I think the OP needs to start thinking of themselves as a dev with 5 years experience and where they are coming up short - to start addressing it...

But in the end you've got to make the commitment and invest the time to improve yourself over as many years as it needs. Training doesn't stop when you graduate, and you sure as hell can't count on your employer to do anything for you in Ireland.

100%

D.

Tar.Aldarion

pakb1ue wrote: »

I am considering my options at my current position and wondering what I should do.

I am currently working for a financial services company building and maintaining an application written in Python (but using a lot of internal frameworks which are useless to me outside of the company) for the last 2.5 years. I started on €40k but I haven't got a bonus or pay raise in my time there and from talking to my manager I won't see a promotion for another two years thus no pay raise. The graduates who started the same time as me are now on a higher salary and a few got promotions this year. Prior to that I came through a graduate program in another financial services company were I worked on a Java based application (I mostly did bug fixes) but left the company after 2.5 years.

About 6 months ago I went for two jobs in around €55k. One was Python/Java role, passed two phone screens but didn't get the job after doing a 4 hour interview in their office. The other was a Ruby/Python role which they reached out to me on via Linkedin, passed two phone interviews but they gave me an assignment to do but I wasn't able to complete it.

I've been keeping an eye on the job market there hasn't been a whole lot of Python jobs and I was wondering should I go back to Java but the issue with that is I haven't touched the language since I started my current role and have forgotten everything. I'd like to get a job that would be both Python and Java so that I can spend time getting back to up speed with Java.

I've been speaking to recruiters and they have been telling me I can demand around €55k for a Python role but only €40-45k if I want to go for a Java role.

I have seen a few jobs in London which I am interested in but still a bit uneasy about moving to another city.

Am I wrong by trying to get back into a Java role or is it bad jumping from one language to another?

Sounds like you do have to move, that happens in a lot of companies in our industry, not all, but a lot. Nothing stopping you learning java again in your spare time, java is actually pretty good in that regard as it's the main one with recognised qualifications you can do, refreshing your java and sprucing up your CV
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oracle_Certification_Program

I have a similar background as in I mainly did java before becoming a mostly-python developer, I would say become as good as you can at what you work in. I can't imagine there not being python jobs, our dev team has tripled in the last few years and python seems very popular?


For now I would get feedback on the 4 hour interview, work on it and figure out how to do anything you struggle with in these interviews.

14ned wrote: »

So you're about five years out of uni, and have just 2.5 years of Python experience? That's barely out of junior programming land. I would have said €40k more than reasonable for that skill set, I personally would have thought 30-35k more appropriate.

I'm not sure this is representative considering grads get that these days, maybe there are a lot of terrible paying places. I am always surprised by Morgan's report.

Colonel Panic

That programmer competency matrix is hilarious.

14ned

Tar.Aldarion wrote: »

I'm not sure this is representative considering grads get that these days, maybe there are a lot of terrible paying places. I am always surprised by Morgan's report.

There are a lot of terrible paying places

Most multinationals will typically pay 10-15% above the going rate in a given market. They also tend to do the most advertising through paying all the recruiters at the same time, so the headline rate for a class of role looks a touch higher than it is on the ground.

In the end the average income in Ireland is something like €28,500, and that's for those with jobs. If you're earning more than that and you're under the age of 30, you are doing far better than the average Irish person. People forget that because they compare themselves to those they see around them, not to the average person.

Niall