The Troubles "Who Won The War"

BalcombeSt4

(or if you don't like the word war "war" then "Who Won the Conflict".

There was this Peter Taylor Documentary on the Troubles (I think it was about his 20,000th one) about just over a year a ago called "Who Won The War"

Pete said the Loyalists won it, which I strongly disagree with.
I'm a Republican so prizes for guessing who I think won.

Eh the SAS quite clearly won the war. 53 members of the East Tyrone brigade died between 1969 - 1998. 28 of them died between mid 1987 & early 1992 so more than half of them were killed in the space of 4 & a half years in a "war" that lasted 29 years.

Neither Republicans or Loyalists came out with all their goals in tact. The British were the only side that came out with all of their objectives in tact.

!987 was a turning point in the conflict. After Loughgall it was open season on the IRA in Tyrone as far as the SAS and their UVF allies were concernd, Drumnakilley Ambush 1988 were the SAS took out 3 more top Tyrone IRA members , 1991 Cappagh Shooting were the UVF shot dead 3 Tyrone IRA Vols & a civlian, The Coagh Ambush 1991 another 3 IRA Vols killed by the SAS, The Clonoe Ambush 1992 another 4 IRA killed by the SAS although 2 did get away & managed to injure a SAS Soldier. So 21 Tyrone IRA were killed in SAS & UVF ambushes between 1987 - 1992.

It was a twin track offensive by the SAS & UVF & it came at around the time the IRA wanted to launch thier "Tet Offensive" but the capture of the Eksund that same year mean't that plan had to be scaled down to the smaller attacks like Loughgall.
As one Tyrone Republican put it "The SAS targeted IRA Volunteers, the UVF targeted their famalies & communities."

I'd like to get others views on who you think one & why & if possible give your political position.

Ascendant

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

Neither Republicans or Loyalists came out with all their goals in tact. The British were the only side that came out with all of their objectives in tact.

Wouldn't that thus answer the question as to who 'won'?

Arkady

The sectarian criminals, con merchants, politicians and murderers won the war and made the money, and obtained their desired power, and the ordinary people, as usual lost and paid the price.

BalcombeSt4

Arkady wrote: »

The sectarian criminals, con merchants, politicians and murderers won the war and made the money, and obtained their desired power, and the ordinary people, as usual lost and paid the price.

Well they were still going to be there either way United Ireland or not.

BalcombeSt4

Ascendant wrote: »

Wouldn't that thus answer the question as to who 'won'?

Not really because the British governments objective might have been a United Ireland.

Del.Monte

OP - thread would be better in AH if you're trying to stir things.

pea be

I think there were many winners...
We live in a United Ireland and a United Kingdom, where we govern ourselves in a shared government. We can call ourselves Irish or British. No side got everything they wanted, but then all sides got something they could live with. And that something is a million times better than we had before or during the troubles.

There is one dry that lost in the troubles... , those who lost loved ones in the conflict ... Friends, neighbours, relatives of all creeds and beliefs ... Gone, but not forgotten!

riffmongous

No one has won, because it's not over yet. The conflict itself is still ongoing, 'The Troubles' was a period in the much longer running conflict where it had a much higher intensity, and quite frankly I don't think there will ever be a proper end to it, there are too many vested political interests who require the ordinary people to be opposed for the sake of their own power and influence and while they are still there, and I think they always will be, the conflict will always continue with occasional flare ups.

BalcombeSt4

riffmongous wrote: »

No one has won, because it's not over yet. The conflict itself is still ongoing, 'The Troubles' was a period in the much longer running conflict where it had a much higher intensity, and quite frankly I don't think there will ever be a proper end to it, there are too many vested political interests who require the ordinary people to be opposed for the sake of their own power and influence and while they are still there, and I think they
always will be, the conflict will always continue with occasional flare ups.

That's true atleast from the late 16th/early 17th century there's been political & religious tensions in Ulster which has flared in to varying degrees of violence. Even today there was a pretty large bomb in East Belfast.

Loyalists certainly lost most out of the conflict, From 1922 -- 1972 they were in complete control of the place & could do what they wanted, marched they pleased & flew what ever flag they liked without Dublin having a look in. Now all that power ig gone & they feel that & they have to share power with Nationalists with strong links to Dublin who they think are trying to "chip" their "culture" away, which is all in their heads. Their confusing being equal with being oppressed.

BalcombeSt4

pea be wrote: »

I think there were many winners...
We live in a United Ireland and a United Kingdom, where we govern ourselves in a shared government. We can call ourselves Irish or British. No side got everything they wanted, but then all sides got something they could live with. And that something is a million times better than we had before or during the troubles.

There is one dry that lost in the troubles... , those who lost loved ones in the conflict ... Friends, neighbours, relatives of all creeds and beliefs ... Gone, but not forgotten!

I'm talking more about the armed groups party to the conflict. When you consider the IRA's goal was a United Democratic Socialist Republic they fell along way of their goal. Also when you consider they had a "Third Phase" offensive planned but had to be canceled thanks to loss of the Eksund, which would have given them a real chance in atleast changing world opening & they would have had a even better chance if it was just the regular British Army they had to fight & not the SAS.

Loughgall is the most famous SAS operation in Tyrone but it was not their first. The SAS actually started their offensive against Tyrone in 1985. I guess the East Tyrone Brigade was choosen to target because the Brits didn't want the IRA getting the upper hand there & creating a no-go for foot patrols like in South Armagh which was in fact Jim Lynagh & Padraig McKearneys goal..
But the East Tyrone Brigade was not as strong the South Armagh brigade there was security flaws in the Loughgall operation that were unchecked that would have been just routine to the South Armagh PIRA. In fact in 1990 with the SAS having so much success in Tyrone they decided to ambush the South Armagh Brigade in what was called Operation Conservation. It was a disaster for the British the operation was uncovered & thwarted & their ambush turned into a counter-ambush against them by the IRA & a British soldier was killed & one injured the the IRA Vols were unharmed.
The British officer is charge of the failed ambush said: "In military terms, it was one of the IRA's finest attacks in South Armagh. They picked out the COP team in the most exposed position. With hindsight, it was the one weak link in the operation and it says something for the IRA's tactical and field skills that they identified that fact before we did."

So you can see th South Amragh Brigade was miles ahead above the East Tyrone Brigade. The IRA in had some success against the SAS in the early 80's, in 1980 the so called IRA "M-60 gang" killed one of the most senior SAS men to serve in Ireland. Kieran Fleming killed a SAS officer in a gun battle but then drowned trying to get away from the British Army.

Anyway the SAS offensive started in Tyrone in February1985 the SAS ambushed 5 IRA Volunteers who's commander was Vol. Charlie Breslin near Strabane 2 of the of the IRA Volunteers escaped but 3 were killed including Breslin. This was probably the British Armies biggest success against the IRA since the early 70's the IRA hit back at this straight away just 5 days after the ambush Newry Police Station was mortared killing 9 RUC officers & injuring dozens. Later that year they killed an informer who admitted given intelligence to the security forces that helped the SAS in the planning of the ambush.

But it was initially the IRA not the SAS who started to intensify things, brimming with confidence with new Libyan weaponary they had gotten with the promise of a lot more on the way. The East Tyrone formed really a more of a small flying colunm than ASU that would start the offesnive early on a small scale to put it into practice. Ballygawley police base was choosen as the place & 7th of December 1985 as the time, to put the theory into practice. And test results was what Republicans call a "Spectacular" IRA volunteers had been lying in wait outside the barracks and, as the officers left, two IRA gunmen stepped out of concealed positions and shot both officers in the head from close range. Another IRA unit then directed heavy machine-gun fire at the front of the barracks, which provided cover for a bomb team to plant a 100 lb bomb inside. The bomb exploded ten minutes later, destroying the barracks. Three other RUC officers who were in the building fled through a back door & were injured
It was one of the IRA's most successful raids ever.
Just 4 days later on 11th of December they mortared Tynan RUC base in Armagh close to the Tyrone border in which RUC were injured.
One week later on the 19th of December the RUC base in Castlederg, Tyrone, was wrecked by a shell during a mortar attack carried out by the East Tyrone Brigades flying colunm.
Their nex big attack was in August 1986 an attack on The Birches police station, using the same sort of attack that would take place at Loughgall with a digger with a bucket in it's bomb & a van full with armed Volunteers beside the digger. Padraig McKearney was left behind on the Birches attack. Padraig McKearney one of the more militant members of the colunm was having arguments with an Adams loyalist & Army Council member Kevin McKenna at the time over a number things, mainly both McKearney & Jim Lynagh wanted to intensify the campaign McKenna didn't if anything he wanted it slowed down more. You really have to go back to the introductiion of the cell system Adams came up with in Cage 11 in 1976 to understand some of the reasons why, The cell system made it harder for the Brits to penerate but in the old system an informer would ruin only a small area, but in the cell system a mole put in the right place coud do huge damage to the organization as a whole. Like Brendan Hughes said in late 80's "Belfast was rotten with informers.
McKearney & Lynagh actually had meetings with Dom McGlinchy about breaking away from the Provos and forming their own group because they.were unhappy with the doves in the IRA leadership.
About 8 mounths after the attack on the Birches Loughgall happened & the SAS intensified it's campaign in Tyrone.

Ascendant

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

Not really because the British governments objective might have been a United Ireland.

Well...except it wasn't.

The British government wanted a quietish province who wouldn't cause headlines nor too much trouble, and would ultimately be content with regular subsidies, and that is what it got via the GFA.

BalcombeSt4

Ascendant wrote: »

Well...except it wasn't.

The British government wanted a quietish province who wouldn't cause headlines nor too much trouble, and would ultimately be content with regular subsidies, and that is what it got via the GFA.

Yes, but my point was that statement alone does not answer my question. You would have to explain to what the British obective was. I'm also more interested in how people think the Brits or IRA won. Or IPLO

Ascendant

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

Yes, but my point was that statement alone does not answer my question. You would have to explain to what the British obective was. I'm also more interested in how people think the Brits or IRA won. Or IPLO

I did. The BG wanted a quiet province that wouldn't cause international headlines, and that's pretty much what it got.

In that regards, its objectives were reactive, while the IRA of whatever shades was trying to accomplish something, i.e. a united Ireland, something that we do not have and thus the PIRA/INLA objective was a failure.

BalcombeSt4

Ascendant wrote: »

I did. The BG wanted a quiet province that wouldn't cause international headlines, and that's pretty much what it got.

In that regards, its objectives were reactive, while the IRA of whatever shades was trying to accomplish something, i.e. a united Ireland, something that we do not have and thus the PIRA/INLA objective was a failure.

Right, but after I said the statement on it own wasn't enough. Anyway I don't care about that.

Yes, but I'm more intresed in military terms why people believe that either the British Army, Republican Guerrilla ir Loyalists lost or won.

Arkady

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

Right, but after I said the statement on it own wasn't enough. Anyway I don't care about that.

Yes, but I'm more intresed in military terms why people believe that either the British Army, Republican Guerrilla ir Loyalists lost or won.

Gangsters, crooks and politicians won, they achieved their desired money and power, under the usual trick disguise of manipulating patriotism and the nearest colour of flag to hand, for their own ends, and as usual, the ordinary people done the suffering. The ordinary people got wise to their ruse in the end.

Arsemageddon

Nice re-reg there Darkie, thanks for keeping us all posted on what you've been reading on Wikipedia, as always it's just fascinating!

DellyBelly

Think this is the doc you were talking about - https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XhPMb0W9kJE

tac foley

Well, Northern Ireland is STILL part of the United Kingdom, so, on the whole, I'd opine that you and your fellow 'republican' pals lost.

tac

BalcombeSt4

Arsemageddon wrote: »

Nice re-reg there Darkie, thanks for keeping us all posted on what you've been reading on Wikipedia, as always it's just fascinating!

What are you talking about you smart arse. Do you have anything relevant to say or are you just here to insult people?.

I'd wipe the floor with you in a debate (as long as it was factual) that's why you have to resort to 12 year old girl tactics as racism.

weadick

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

(or if you don't like the word war "war" then "Who Won the Conflict".

There was this Peter Taylor Documentary on the Troubles (I think it was about his 20,000th one) about just over a year a ago called "Who Won The War"

Pete said the Loyalists won it, which I strongly disagree with.
I'm a Republican so prizes for guessing who I think won.

Eh the SAS quite clearly won the war. 53 members of the East Tyrone brigade died between 1969 - 1998. 28 of them died between mid 1987 & early 1992 so more than half of them were killed in the space of 4 & a half years in a "war" that lasted 29 years.

Neither Republicans or Loyalists came out with all their goals in tact. The British were the only side that came out with all of their objectives in tact.

!987 was a turning point in the conflict. After Loughgall it was open season on the IRA in Tyrone as far as the SAS and their UVF allies were concernd, Drumnakilley Ambush 1988 were the SAS took out 3 more top Tyrone IRA members , 1991 Cappagh Shooting were the UVF shot dead 3 Tyrone IRA Vols & a civlian, The Coagh Ambush 1991 another 3 IRA Vols killed by the SAS, The Clonoe Ambush 1992 another 4 IRA killed by the SAS although 2 did get away & managed to injure a SAS Soldier. So 21 Tyrone IRA were killed in SAS & UVF ambushes between 1987 - 1992.

It was a twin track offensive by the SAS & UVF & it came at around the time the IRA wanted to launch thier "Tet Offensive" but the capture of the Eksund that same year mean't that plan had to be scaled down to the smaller attacks like Loughgall.
As one Tyrone Republican put it "The SAS targeted IRA Volunteers, the UVF targeted their famalies & communities."

I'd like to get others views on who you think one & why & if possible give your political position.

The British/Loyalists won. There is not, nor is there ever likely to be a united Ireland.

They say that history is written by the winners and this is definitely true in the case of Ulster. Look at how SF are constantly (perhaps rightly) being hammered in the Irish media for being murderers, bombers, etc. Yet the Loyalists, who killed a thousand people and carried out some of the most awful gruesome acts of violence in the history the conflict (Dublin/Monaghan, Loughinisland, Shankill Butchers, shooting innocent taxi drivers in the back of the head...could go on) are completely forgotten about.

Unionist politicians like Paisley and Robinson who flirted with these psychopathic lunatics have never been given the same grilling by the media as Adams/McGuinness have.

Its less than 20 years since British special armed forces were committing acts of terrorism similar of not worse than those committed by the IRA; regularly killing innocent people by 'accident' and 40 years since they helped Loyalists blow 40 Irish people to bits in Dublin/Monaghan. Yet their activities and crimes against Irish people have been more or less forgotten about, not least by ourselves. Queen Elizabeth is probably more popular here than our own heads of state.

When Scotland eventually gains independence it is quite possible that a part of Ireland will be the last remaining piece of the Empire that they have to hold on to. So yes...they won.

Ascendant

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

Right, but after I said the statement on it own wasn't enough. Anyway I don't care about that.

Yes, but I'm more intresed in military terms why people believe that either the British Army, Republican Guerrilla ir Loyalists lost or won.

If you're asking about purely military terms, then a couple of writers on the Troubles - Toby Harnden and Ed Moloney - have suggested that by the time of the Peace Process, the PIRA was running on empty.

Most of its work was having to be done by the South Armagh Brigade as the rest were either too inactive or riddled with informants. By that time, even the SA branch were getting whittled down, with the arrests of some of its most skilled members such as snipers.

Which would indicate that the PIRA had been unable to sustain itself as a terrorist/guerrilla force, and thus was an ultimate military failure.

tac foley

weadick wrote: »

When Scotland eventually gains independence it is quite possible that a part of Ireland will be the last remaining piece of the Empire that they have to hold on to. So yes...they won.

I'll be kind and ignore the other fairy tales you trotted out there, especially the one about the SAS planting bombs in Dublin [where DO you get this stuff?], but as for Northern Ireland being the 'last remaining piece of the Empire' I'd like to point out the British Commonwealth of around 3/4 billion people - that is the real legacy of the British Empire.

However, as I'm sure you already know, the Republic of Ireland chose not to join in.

tac

weadick

tac foley wrote: »

I'll be kind and ignore the other fairy tales you trotted out there, especially the one about the SAS planting bombs in Dublin [where DO you get this stuff?], but as for Northern Ireland being the 'last remaining piece of the Empire' I'd like to point out the British Commonwealth of around 3/4 billion people - that is the real legacy of the British Empire.

However, as I'm sure you already know, the Republic of Ireland chose not to join in.

tac

I didn't say anything about the SAS planting bombs in Dublin I was referring to British collusion with the UVF in that atrocity in 1974. One which was virtually been forgotten about.

Arsemageddon

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

What are you talking about you smart arse. Do you have anything relevant to say or are you just here to insult people?.

I'd wipe the floor with you in a debate (as long as it was factual) that's why you have to resort to 12 year old girl tactics as racism.

No denial then Darkie? Or do you prefer Jim Lynagh87?

Any chance you could explain what ".....12 year old girl tactics as racism" means? I'm completely stumped.

Arkady

They are all gangsters on all sides, from the terrorists to the "politicians", north and south. They are the only winners, and the Irish people are the constant loosers.

It never ceases to amaze me the halfwit followers you can gather by waving a flag, singing an anthem, and handing out uniforms. People that will happily die and give up their lives to keep parasites like Enda Kenny to Gerry Adams, to David Cameron wealthy, comfortable and in power.

It's mind boggling that grown adults will fall for this same scam generation after generation, in country after country.

Manach

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