The Blueshirts

Shurimgreat

So a thread for everyone from all political persuasions to discuss the Blueshirts and their influence and role in Irish society in the 1930s.

How representative were they of 1930s Ireland?

Did they have popular support or were they just a fringe element?

And how exactly did O'Duffy leave Fine Gael?

Interesting subject, shrouded in myth and mythology, but dragged up every so often in modern times.

KingBrian2

They enjoyed a stint of popularity following the founding of the state to commemorate the honoured Michael Collins, O'Higgins & Arthur Griffith. They felt the newly installed anti-Treatyite De Velara Gvt was a betrayal of their cause and went on a anti leftist or rather anti IRA agenda. In time their extremism lost respectability among their own party and so they left to find another battleground in Spain.

Shurimgreat

Apart from O'Duffy, were there any other prominent leaders and where did they end up?

Apparently sympathy for fascism was quite strong in the early to mid 1930s, both in Ireland and Europe in general. Most fascists were seen as loons, but it was relatively popular nonetheless.

Churchill, Lloyd George and a number of prominent figures were admirers of Hitler in the early 30s, up to a point. They thought he brought much needed stability to Germany in a very uncertain world and was a welcome antidote to communism.

When Hitler started invading other countries, fascism fell out of fashion in the British Isles.

KingBrian2

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Apart from O'Duffy, were there any other prominent leaders and where did they end up?

Apparently sympathy for fascism was quite strong in the early to mid 1930s, both in Ireland and Europe in general. Most fascists were seen as loons, but it was relatively popular nonetheless.

Churchill, Lloyd George and a number of prominent figures were admirers of Hitler in the early 30s, up to a point. They thought he brought much needed stability to Germany in a very uncertain world and was a welcome antidote to communism.

When Hitler started invading other countries, fascism fell out of fashion in the British Isles.

Democracy itself was new as part of the Treaty of Versailles the victorious allies wanted Germany to force the Kaiser to abdicate. Countries like Spain, Italy and Portugal were on their way to one party rule and their fascist police forces were beating up the Bolsheviks which had grown and grown. O'Duffy had the same traits as these extremists and he found the Spanish Civil War a great place to fight Bolsheviks.

Ascendant

Shurimgreat wrote: »

Apart from O'Duffy, were there any other prominent leaders and where did they end up?

In Ireland, there was the party, Ailtirí na hAiséirghe (“Architects of the Resurrection”) who were openly pro-fascist and wanted to emulate Continental fascism for Ireland with a Catholic, uber-nationalist, Irish-speaking flavour.

[URL="hhttps://erinascendantwordpress.wordpress.com/2015/12/18/book-review-architects-of-the-resurrection-ailtiri-na-haiseirghe-and-the-fascist-new-order-in-ireland-by-r-m-douglas/ttp://"]Book Review: Architects of the Resurrection: Ailtirí na hAiséirghe and the fascist ‘new order’ in Ireland, by R.M. Douglas (2009)[/URL]

They ended up fizzling out of existence, although their leader seemed to have had a long and successful career as a small-time publisher.

whisky_galore

KingBrian2 wrote: »

O'Duffy had the same traits as these extremists and he found the Spanish Civil War a great place to fight Bolsheviks.

Their own side opened fire on them when they arrived in Spain, not recognising their uniforms, if I recall correctly.

Ascendant

whisky_galore wrote: »

Their own side opened fire on them when they arrived in Spain, not recognising their uniforms, if I recall correctly.

It was O'Duffy's 'Crusade' in Spain that ruined his reputation in Ireland for good.

He had been a divisive figure beforehand, even amongst his allies (the Cosgrave government was planning to relieve him as Gardai Commissioner even before Fianna Fail too over, and he soon fell out with the Blueshirts and left them), but when news of how his farcical his time in Spain became public knowledge at home, not even Bolshevik-hating, uber-Catholic Ireland could take him seriously anymore.

An interesting man, O'Duffy. Of an undoubted talents - trusted confidant to Michael Collins, successful guerilla leader in Monaghan, and strict disciplinarian for the police - but with a tendency to megalomania and self-worship that got more pronounced over time. The massive amounts he was putting away towards the end didn't help, either

NoCrackHaving

As this thread has already been opened I'll post my own Blueshirt related question here. Has anyone any idea if any membership records were kept and if so are they still in existence and how could I access them? I'm currently doing some research and trying to track down a few names to see were they members of the organisation and did they go to Spain with O'Duffy.

Arsemageddon

The Blue shirts were a very half-arsed attempt at fascism, they were a fad rather than a political movement that had any lasting impact on Irish life. . While they aped all of the outward trappings of European fascism (the uniforms, marching, salutes, etc.) they never really got to grips with the underlying political philosophy. The vast majority of members were just reactionary catholic nationalists with very simplistic political views. Joe Lee put it rather well when he said 'for the average Blueshirt the trouble with fascism was it was far too sophisticated an ideology for them'.

The only political opponents of any significance they had to scrap with were the IRA/Republicans who were not exactly a left wing movement in the 1930's. Basically, the Blueshirt phenomenon was just a continuation of the Civil War by other means.

Ascendant

Arsemageddon wrote: »

The Blue shirts were a very half-arsed attempt at fascism, they were a fad rather than a political movement that had any lasting impact on Irish life. . While they aped all of the outward trappings of European fascism (the uniforms, marching, salutes, etc.) they never really got to grips with the underlying political philosophy. The vast majority of members were just reactionary catholic nationalists with very simplistic political views. Joe Lee put it rather well when he said 'for the average Blueshirt the trouble with fascism was it was far too sophisticated an ideology for them'.

Whether the Blueshirts were a fascist movement or not depends on who you're reading and from what direction they approach the subject.

The two most detailed books look at the Blueshirts from opposite angles: Fearghal McGarry on the leadership in his Eoin O'Duffy: A Self-Made Hero, and Maurice Manning more on the group as a whole and its grassroots membership in The Blueshirts.

McGarry indicates strongly that the Blueshirts were a fully-fledged Fascist organisation due to much of their leadership being so, Manning sees them, on the other hand, as fundamentally an anti-Fianna Fail outfit and a continuation of Civil War hostilities with some borrowed Fascist trappings.

laoch na mona

they gave Fine Gael the youth and energy that Cosgrave and co couldn't, De Valera de-armed them before they could try anything so mostly they just got in street fights with the IRA or the police during the economic war. By fighting for the Fascists in Spain they reflected Irish society's pro Franco sentiment.

They are an interesting part of Irish history in that they were both the Irish branch of European Fascism but also firmly based in the civil war split.

whisky_galore

Fascism-Lite, if they had brains and a leader with real charisma they might have been dangerous.

BalcombeSt4

Arsemageddon wrote: »

The Blue shirts were a very half-arsed attempt at fascism, they were a fad rather than a political movement that had any lasting impact on Irish life. . While they aped all of the outward trappings of European fascism (the uniforms, marching, salutes, etc.) they never really got to grips with the underlying political philosophy. The vast majority of members were just reactionary catholic nationalists with very simplistic political views. Joe Lee put it rather well when he said 'for the average Blueshirt the trouble with fascism was it was far too sophisticated an ideology for them'.

The only political opponents of any significance they had to scrap with were the IRA/Republicans who were not exactly a left wing movement in the 1930's. Basically, the Blueshirt phenomenon was just a continuation of the Civil War by other means.

"IRA/Republicans who were not exactly a left wing movement in the 1930's"

Yeah, that's why most of the Irish International Brigade was represented by the IRA & Republicans for Spanish Republic to fight future Fine Gael fascism.

laoch na mona

BalcombeSt4 wrote: »

"IRA/Republicans who were not exactly a left wing movement in the 1930's"

Yeah, that's why most of the Irish International Brigade was represented by the IRA & Republicans for Spanish Republic to fight future Fine Gael fascism.

to be fair Peadar O'Donnell and Frank Ryan had split from the IRA in the early 1930s to for republican congress. The IRA in the 1930s was fairly lacking in revolutionary Ideology

Arsemageddon

Ascendant wrote: »

Whether the Blueshirts were a fascist movement or not depends on who you're reading and from what direction they approach the subject.

With respect, I am capable of forming my own opinions.

Ascendant

Arsemageddon wrote: »

With respect, I am capable of forming my own opinions.

No one said you weren't.

Shurimgreat

I wouldn't mind seeing a TV documentary about it. Sadly RTE seem to have largely given up on historical/political documentary making. Cathal O'Shannon was never replaced and even John Bowman doesn't seem to be involved in programs lately.

feargale

In the 1930s "republicans" took to breaking up pro-Treaty meetings. While some of the Blueshirts, including the clown O'Duffy saw themselves as fascists, it would be interesting to know, though we will never know, how many Blueshirts threw themselves into O'Duffy's arms simply for protection from the wreckers.

NoCrackHaving

feargale wrote: »

In the 1930s "republicans" took to breaking up pro-Treaty meetings. While some of the Blueshirts, including the clown O'Duffy saw themselves as fascists, it would be interesting to know, though we will never know, how many Blueshirts threw themselves into O'Duffy's arms simply for protection from the wreckers.

I think you're probably pretty close to the mark here. The anti-capitalist and anti-religious rhetoric of fascism wouldn't have gone down well with the vast majority of Irish smallholders and lower middle classes who made up the Blueshirts. They were really just ultra Catholic reactionaries opposed to any form of communism gaining ground in Ireland. In their eyes the IRA = communists. In reality this was a ridiculous fear to have as Frank Ryan and the likes had already broken with the IRA to form the Republican Congress as the IRA was far too conservative an organisation. The chances of communism gaining ground in a society as stiflingly rural and Catholic as Ireland were absolutely minuscule.

whisky_galore

NoCrackHaving wrote: »

I think you're probably pretty close to the mark here. The anti-capitalist and anti-religious rhetoric of fascism wouldn't have gone down well with the vast majority of Irish smallholders and lower middle classes who made up the Blueshirts. They were really just ultra Catholic reactionaries opposed to any form of communism gaining ground in Ireland. In their eyes the IRA = communists. In reality this was a ridiculous fear to have as Frank Ryan and the likes had already broken with the IRA to form the Republican Congress as the IRA was far too conservative an organisation. The chances of communism gaining ground in a society as stiflingly rural and Catholic as Ireland were absolutely minuscule.

Franco's Spain was hand in glove with the church as a bulwark against godless communism. Big business interests were a bit jittery with Hitler's rise to power until he toned down any traces of socialism, on the other hand German church leaders were appalled by Nazi neo paganism and Catholic Bavaria were not that pleased with the way priests etc were treated. Fascism was 'a la carte', depending where you went.

Think the majority of the Irish population at the time weren't quite sure what to make of it, apart from men who liked speeches, marched about and played at dressing up. Communism on the other hand was an all out no-no.

NoCrackHaving

whisky_galore wrote: »

Franco's Spain was hand in glove with the church as a bulwark against godless communism. Big business interests were a bit jittery with Hitler's rise to power until he toned down any traces of socialism, on the other hand German church leaders were appalled by Nazi neo paganism and Catholic Bavaria were not that pleased with the way priests etc were treated. Fascism was 'a la carte', depending where you went.

Think the majority of the Irish population at the time weren't quite sure what to make of it, apart from men who liked speeches, marched about and played at dressing up. Communism on the other hand was an all out no-no.

Franco wasn't really a Fascist a la Mussolini or Hitler though in fairness, he was an ultra-ring wing reactionary in a very particularly Spanish context, the true Fascist was the Falangist leader Jose Antonio who was executed early in the Civil War. He managed to mould together the various rightist organisations from the Monarchists, Carlists, Falangists, military and the remnants of CEDA into his vision of Spain. The power of the Falange was completely subsumed under his leadership with its anti capitalist rhetoric completely remvoed.

KingBrian2

Horrible people the lot of them were. Wise up not to repeat such follies.

donaghs

whisky_galore wrote: »

Franco's Spain was hand in glove with the church as a bulwark against godless communism. Big business interests were a bit jittery with Hitler's rise to power until he toned down any traces of socialism, on the other hand German church leaders were appalled by Nazi neo paganism and Catholic Bavaria were not that pleased with the way priests etc were treated. Fascism was 'a la carte', depending where you went.

Think the majority of the Irish population at the time weren't quite sure what to make of it, apart from men who liked speeches, marched about and played at dressing up. Communism on the other hand was an all out no-no.

I'd agree. Until the rise of the Nazi's some people just saw Fascism as a non-Communist "third-way" which could solve the problems of the depression, class conflict etc, while democratic capitalism seemed to be floundering. O'Duffy, while a clown as fascist leader, was no Hitler.
At the 1934 International Fascist conference in Montreux he argued against anti-Semitism as a policy. He's a hard man to pin down though as he's full of contradictions. But if O'Duffy and the Blueshirts had an ideology it was more based on then fashionable idea of Italian Fascist Corporatism, in which all sectors of society had a say in the running of society: employers, workers and state officials etc.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Corporatism