Down weeks/ modulating workouts?

Myles Splitz

Looking for a bit of input regarding training approaches (hopefully get a bit of discussion)

Normally "down weeks" are designed to reduce volume every 4-6 weeks however anyone approach down weeks by modulating their interval lengths?

For example say you have been progressing session lengths

6x600m @ 5k pace (with equal recovery)
6x800m @ 5k pace (with equal recovery)
6x1000m @ 5k pace (with equal recovery)

Rather than dropping the volume or intensity on the "down week" the idea would be to modulate the interval lengths so that the session can actually get more volume at race pace while still scaling back intensity to allow the body adaptation

So for example on the 4th week add a session such as this

3 x (3x800m with 75% recovery) 5 min between sets.

Wondering if anyone see's any draw backs to this sort of approach?

Murph_D

I suppose an obvious question is why you would want to do this rather than take the recovery that I presume is the reasoning behind the down week? Week 4 there still adds up to 7.2k @ 5k pace, which looks intense to me despite the shorter reps.

Myles Splitz

Murph_D wrote: »

I suppose an obvious question is why you would want to do this rather than take the recovery that I presume is the reasoning behind the down week? Week 4 there still adds up to 7.2k @ 5k pace, which looks intense to me despite the shorter reps.

Hypothesizing whether it could be used as a more race specific form of recovery and adaptation. The above would be more volume at race pace though might also allow you to recover and adapt better because it is less strenous given the fragmented nature

I know Magness uses these types of sessions as a progressive through his plans but it got me thinking about whether or not it might make sense to use as a race specific recovery. Could also be used to regulate sessions in a week (having one specific "hard" workout in the week and one more moderate depending on the focus of the particular training emphasis while still being pace specific)

pconn062

For me the main concern would be the intensity is not scaled back enough for it to be a true recovery week. But that again probably depends on the intensity of a normal week. If a normal week consisted of two hard sessions and a long run and then the down week consisted of the session above and a shortened long run then that would be a lower intensity week overall. It depends on the individual runner as usual. For me a recovery week needs to be just that, a complete scaling back of mileage and maybe only one very light session. But I imagine someone more robust than me could handle more.

demfad

Myles Splitz wrote: »

Looking for a bit of input regarding training approaches (hopefully get a bit of discussion)

Normally "down weeks" are designed to reduce volume every 4-6 weeks however anyone approach down weeks by modulating their interval lengths?

For example say you have been progressing session lengths

6x600m @ 5k pace (with equal recovery)
6x800m @ 5k pace (with equal recovery)
6x1000m @ 5k pace (with equal recovery)

Rather than dropping the volume or intensity on the "down week" the idea would be to modulate the interval lengths so that the session can actually get more volume at race pace while still scaling back intensity to allow the body adaptation

So for example on the 4th week add a session such as this

3 x (3x800m with 75% recovery) 5 min between sets.

Wondering if anyone see's any draw backs to this sort of approach?

It wont be a recovery session by increasing recovery AND increasing volume

This is a different type of session. It is useful for racing, sure, but it is also extremely useful for improving the quality of the other specific sessions.
Because of the recovery the pressure does not come on the lungs. Because of the volume it eventually comes on the legs, the runner will get a dull ache in the quads towards the end of the session, but breathing wont be at issue. This benefits specific muscular endurance.

In your example the athlete is getting 7200m run @ race pace. You wont get that volume in other specific sessions and because of the recovery, every step can be run with decent form.
IMO many runners are not usually strong enough to run full specific sessions without losing form at the end. They get a little specific endurance and a little specific muscular endurance but unfortunately with bad form.

By putting a session (like the one you described) BEFORE the specific work the runner is now strong enough to run with good form for the entire subsequent sessions. The subsequent specific sessions will now more successfully stimulate specific endurance at race pace. It gives a strength base for these sessions I guess.

You can use it with LT work too. I usually do 3 min reps @ LT effort off 2 mins until my legs get tired. Its a handy cramming session before a race (where race pace within 5% of LT pace, e.g 10k-HM) if muscular endurance may be lacking.

Good one for holidays too. Its not as heavy on the head or body, just the legs.

Wouldn't see it as aiding recovery though as the legs are run hard.

Sacksian

I would agree with the others, the obvious drawback to this approach is that, instead of getting the benefits of a down week, you undermine it completely by attempting to do more volume at pace. You're trying to squeeze more out of a period that is specifically designed around doing less.

My preference would be to take advantage of the benefits of a down week and do a session of shorter reps with plenty recovery a little faster than race pace, but nice and relaxed. Generally, I would have a bit more spring in my stride once I'm into a down week, so I might just do fewer reps a small bit faster.

I'm still on the fence with regard to Magness plans. I'd love to try one but it would take me a few months to even be able to attempt week 1 of most of them - would love to hear others' experiences.

Myles Splitz

Reading back on my point kinda was getting two idea's mixed up. I should clarify down week with step back week to a point.

Demfad comments regarding specific endurance and leg strength actually tie in with some of the reasoning I had for this kind of session in the first place in my own training when building distance at same intensity.

10k progression of sessions

1200m Reps
1000m Reps
1500m Reps
Sets of 800 reps (more volume)

1 mile reps
1200m reps
2000m reps
Sets of 1000m reps

2000m reps
1 mile reps
3000m reps
Sets of 1 mile reps (more volume)

The idea being to use the shorter to develop leg strength before "kicking on" to longer reps.

This kinda got me thinking about other applications for this type of session (race week sessions that are race specific without compromising volume) or even using these sessions with the same volume on proper recovery weeks as an alternative to reducing volume as the intensity is manipulated to allow aided recovery.

(Sorry for the random tangent just trying to look at training from a different view point and hopefully also spark some training talk back into the forum)

career move

That 10k progression of seasons quoted above looks very nice and structured on paper. What time frame would you be looking at getting that done in? How do you fit in the other important stuff as well like hill sprints, hill intervals, fartleks, tempos and the long run and recover properly from it? And how do you keep the sessions going when your racing?

I thought a down week was there to enable your body to absorb the training stimulus, recover and improve. If you're just providing a different stimulus in the form of an altered session (reduced volume:recovery time) does that not defeat the purpose of a down week?

Myles Splitz

career move wrote: »

That 10k progression of seasons quoted above looks very nice and structured on paper. What time frame would you be looking at getting that done in? How do you fit in the other important stuff as well like hill sprints, hill intervals, fartleks, tempos and the long run and recover properly from it? And how do you keep the sessions going when your racing?

I thought a down week was there to enable your body to absorb the training stimulus, recover and improve. If you're just providing a different stimulus in the form of an altered session (reduced volume:recovery time) does that not defeat the purpose of a down week?

Where to begin with this one haha

career move wrote: »

That 10k progression of seasons quoted above looks very nice and structured on paper. What time frame would you be looking at getting that done in?

Personally that is a 12 week approach for me after a winter of more general work with mostly aerobic work and 10k sessions with slightly longer recoveries.

career move wrote: »

How do you fit in the other important stuff as well like hill sprints, hill intervals, fartleks, tempos and the long run and recover properly from it?

This are the primary session of the week with others complimenting

2-3 sessions a week and the rest easy means I am recovering and using the other session as Tempo/Threshold/Vo2 max still session coupled with few strides after easy runs and long runs.

career move wrote: »

And how do you keep the sessions going when your racing?

Haven't raced in a while however when I do these sessions will be spaced around races with the races being used for particular stimulii (have races ranging from 2 mile -10 m coming up to compliment the sessions)

career move wrote: »

I thought a down week was there to enable your body to absorb the training stimulus, recover and improve. If you're just providing a different stimulus in the form of an altered session (reduced volume:recovery time) does that not defeat the purpose of a down week?

I guess this was one of the things I was getting at in terms of changing stimulus as a way of giving one sort of system time to recover without pulling back training (given my aerobic base I am want to focus on this aspect of training as much as possible) I don't usually take too many down weeks as I have factored in mini aerobic blocks in my training at particular times of the year (Aug/Dec/July) as an alternative.

Not recommending it to everyone simply the approach I am experimenting with to

career move

I was reading about 'killer' weeks, where you increase volume and intensity to push your body into a state of 'functional overreaching'. You do them every 8 weeks. If you're in base building phase you ramp up the mileage by up to 50% by increasing frequency and duration. If you're in race prep and you normally do 2 quality sessions then you do 3 or even 4 by doing a fartlek/progression run. The killer week is supposed to provide a bigger boost to your v02 max than a more gradual build up in intensity BUT you have to follow it with a proper recovery week where you decrease both volume and intensity by at least 20%.

Gavlor

career move wrote: »

I was reading about 'killer' weeks, where you increase volume and intensity to push your body into a state of 'functional overreaching'. You do them every 8 weeks. If you're in base building phase you ramp up the mileage by up to 50% by increasing frequency and duration. If you're in race prep and you normally do 2 quality sessions then you do 3 or even 4 by doing a fartlek/progression run. The killer week is supposed to provide a bigger boost to your v02 max than a more gradual build up in intensity BUT you have to follow it with a proper recovery week where you decrease both volume and intensity by at least 20%.

Is the recovery week reduction factor 20% of the killer week or the previous weeks total?

career move

Gavlor wrote: »

Is the recovery week reduction factor 20% of the killer week or the previous weeks total?

At least 20% of the previous week. The killer week is supposed to leave you very tired so that you need the recovery week to freshen up