Primary School Funding.

byhookorbycrook

echo beach wrote: »

Many national schools that have a bishop as patron are able to draw on parish resources for fundraising, etc. and all parishioners, not just parents of school-going children, have a connection to the school with many putting their hands into their pockets to support it.
I don't know if ET schools have a similar network to tap into for funds to supplement inadequate state funding.

I would be interested to know how many primary schools have been able to do this.

echo beach

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I would be interested to know how many primary schools have been able to do this.

It is certainly the norm in our (rural) area with school fundraisers being promoted in the parish newsletter and from the altar. I've often noticed at coffee mornings and the like that there are more people there who don't have children at the school than who do. I suppose it depends on how active the Parents' Committee is in rounding up people to attend and support.

RainyDay

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

I would be interested to know how many primary schools have been able to do this.

Given that all schools are required by Dept Ed rules to publish their school accounts to the school community, it should be fairly easy to find out.

byhookorbycrook

RainyDay wrote: »

Given that all schools are required by Dept Ed rules to publish their school accounts to the school community, it should be fairly easy to find out.

Yes, on an individual basis.But not countrywide.

RainyDay

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Yes, on an individual basis.But not countrywide.

My tongue was firmly in my cheek - most schools seem to 'forget' about the requirement to publish accounts.

killbillvol2

The document linked by tabby aspreme provides a very clear explanation of why the parent body of ET schools might be having some financial difficulties. (They simply don't have the resources of the Catholic church for those of you who didn't read it).

This thread has nothing to do with individual schools.

tabby aspreme

echo beach wrote: »

Many national schools that have a bishop as patron are able to draw on parish resources for fundraising, etc. and all parishioners, not just parents of school-going children, have a connection to the school with many putting their hands into their pockets to support it.
I don't know if ET schools have a similar network to tap into for funds to supplement inadequate state funding.

I would think that between the Capitation, and Ancillary Services grants, plus the Minor Works grant , schools receive adequate funding for day to day running of the school.

killbillvol2

tabby aspreme wrote: »

I would think that between the Capitation, and Ancillary Services grants, plus the Minor Works grant , schools receive adequate funding for day to day running of the school.

I think I'd be safe in saying that not a single school in the country could run adequately on those sources of funding. Unless they switched off the lights and heating for a month maybe.

killbillvol2

killbillvol2 wrote: »

The document linked by tabby aspreme provides a very clear explanation of why the parent body of ET schools might be having some financial difficulties. (They simply don't have the resources of the Catholic church for those of you who didn't read it).

This thread has nothing to do with individual schools.

killbillvol2 wrote: »

I think I'd be safe in saying that not a single school in the country could run adequately on those sources of funding. Unless they switched off the lights and heating for a month maybe.

Yes, I see the irony...

strawberrie

But while the individual Educate Together schools receive funding from the dept their patron body does not. The CPSMA or Catholic Primary School Management Association receives an annual membership fee from each school. I do not know if it receives church funding or not but it probably does. The Educate Together Management Body would not have the same resources, number of school membership fees or church backing.

byhookorbycrook

tabby aspreme wrote: »

I would think that between the Capitation, and Ancillary Services grants, plus the Minor Works grant , schools receive adequate funding for day to day running of the school.

Why do you think school bag pack/have sponsored whatevers cake sales/collect tokens/ask parents to contribute extra funds?

A school cannot survive on what the DES gives it. Even Eddie Hobbs admitted it wasn't possible a few years back with a school in Dublin.

byhookorbycrook

RainyDay wrote: »

My tongue was firmly in my cheek - most schools seem to 'forget' about the requirement to publish accounts.

Any primary school I have worked in has always made the accounts available at the AGM of the PA - many parents don't show for fear of getting a job!

RainyDay

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Any primary school I have worked in has always made the accounts available at the AGM of the PA - many parents don't show for fear of getting a job!

Some do, some don't - in fairness, a parent who us can't make a particular event should still be able to get access to that information.

tabby aspreme

killbillvol2 wrote: »

I think I'd be safe in saying that not a single school in the country could run adequately on those sources of funding. Unless they switched off the lights and heating for a month maybe.

Plenty of schools are run on department funding alone, and there are schools that if they got twice the money they still wouldn't manage. Heat and light account for less than 20% of total spend in our local school , with current oil prices it's probably nearer 15%, and heat is not scrimped on.

byhookorbycrook

tabby aspreme wrote: »

Plenty of schools are run on department funding alone, and there are schools that if they got twice the money they still wouldn't manage. Heat and light account for less than 20% of total spend in our local school , with current oil prices it's probably nearer 15%, and heat is not scrimped on.

Really? I'd be interested to know how they manage.

pwurple

RainyDay wrote: »

Some do, some don't - in fairness, a parent who us can't make a particular event should still be able to get access to that information.

They are emailed to us on request at our child's school.

RainyDay

pwurple wrote: »

They are emailed to us on request at our child's school.

That's positive, though some parents may be reluctant to request, or may not know that they can request.

tabby aspreme

byhookorbycrook wrote: »

Why do you think school bag pack/have sponsored whatevers cake sales/collect tokens/ask parents to contribute extra funds?

A school cannot survive on what the DES gives it. Even Eddie Hobbs admitted it wasn't possible a few years back with a school in Dublin.

The actual figures vary, but take a school with five mainstream classrooms, it would receive approximately € 50,000 p/a for day to day running and minor maintenance of the school which imo is a reasonable amount.

Elemonator

Interesting to note that ET is being viewed in a somewhat business like fashion. Personally I don't see the need for it, seems costly having different organisations for schools. Just take religion out of all state run schools and sorted.

strawberrie

Where are you getting your figures from?
The max pupils in 5 classroom school is 143. The max capitation grant is therefore 143 x 170 for this size school or 24,310. The minor works grant is 5500 plus 18.5 per pupil or 8145.5. Giving a total funding of 32455.50. Way off 50,000 and this is if that five classroom school is full. Never mind smaller budgets again for smaller schools or the uncertainty over whether the minor works grant will be paid in any calendar year at all!
The BOM of your school would have to plan based on half of the figure you are projecting!
School insurance costs would reduce this figure by at least 2-3000 more.

["tabby aspreme;98887135"]The actual figures vary, but take a school with five mainstream classrooms, it would receive approximately € 50,000 p/a for day to day running and minor maintenance of the school which imo is a reasonable amount.[/quote]

tabby aspreme

strawberrie wrote: »

Where are you getting your figures from?
The max pupils in 5 classroom school is 143. The max capitation grant is therefore 143 x 170 for this size school or 24,310. The minor works grant is 5500 plus 18.5 per pupil or 8145.5. Giving a total funding of 32455.50. Way off 50,000 and this is if that five classroom school is full. Never mind smaller budgets again for smaller schools or the uncertainty over whether the minor works grant will be paid in any calendar year at all!
The BOM of your school would have to plan based on half of the figure you are projecting!
School insurance costs would reduce this figure by at least 2-3000 more.

["tabby aspreme;98887135"]The actual figures vary, but take a school with five mainstream classrooms, it would receive approximately € 50,000 p/a for day to day running and minor maintenance of the school which imo is a reasonable amount.

[/quote]

I'm also including the ancillary services grant in my figures

strawberrie

You said day to day running and minor maintenance.
Ancillary grant is purely for employment of caretaking and secretarial services including employers prsi. This school would get 20806.5 for this purpose. Hardly a decent salary for employing two staff to those positions.
Do you still think that this funding is adequate? I think it is grossly inadequate and places an impossible burden on schools and those supporting them.

tabby aspreme wrote: »

I'm also including the ancillary services grant in my figures[/quote]

tabby aspreme

strawberrie wrote: »

You said day to day running and minor maintenance.
Ancillary grant is purely for employment of caretaking and secretarial services including employers prsi. This school would get 20806.5 for this purpose. Hardly a decent salary for employing two staff to those positions.
Do you still think that this funding is adequate? I think it is grossly inadequate and places an impossible burden on schools and those supporting them.


I'm also including the ancillary services grant in my figures

[/quote]

I would consider the employment of caretakeing and secretarial positions as part of the successful day to day running and maintenance of a school, how long would a school last without them, in a school of five mainstream classrooms €20k is plenty for two part time roles considering the school building is in use for approximately 30 hours a week for 36/37 weeks of the year and the secretary need only be employed for term time.

killbillvol2

tabby aspreme wrote: »

I would consider the employment of caretakeing and secretarial positions as part of the successful day to day running and maintenance of a school, how long would a school last without them, in a school of five mainstream classrooms €20k is plenty for two part time roles considering the school building is in use for approximately 30 hours a week for 36/37 weeks of the year and the secretary need only be employed for term time.

What you consider and the reality are not related in any way. You don't know what you're talking about.

tabby aspreme

killbillvol2 wrote: »

What you consider and the reality are not related in any way. You don't know what you're talking about.

As someone who is currently on a BoM (my third time) , I do know what I'm talking about, but most people don't want to know about efficiency or common sense when it comes to spending pubic funds,they prefer to just keep whinging that there's not enough.

strawberrie

Interested to know what parents contribute to the running of the school in terms of voluntary contributions, money for materials activities or fundraising.
Also on a BOM, over 5 years and think you are either fortunate to be on BOM of a school with plenty of cash reserves in the bank or don't have too much involvement with the figures.

tabby aspreme wrote: »

As someone who is currently on a BoM (my third time) , I do know what I'm talking about, but most people don't want to know about efficiency or common sense when it comes to spending pubic funds,they prefer to just keep whinging that there's not enough.

byhookorbycrook

Ancillary grants are not capitation, though, they are to pay a secretary/cleaner/caretaker for hours worked.

RainyDay

killbillvol2 wrote: »

...or couldn't care less.

Yes indeed, there is a bit of that too, they most parents do put their hands in the pockets to pay voluntary contributions, so they do have a direct involvement.

byhookorbycrook

tabby aspreme wrote: »

As someone who is currently on a BoM (my third time) , I do know what I'm talking about, but most people don't want to know about efficiency or common sense when it comes to spending pubic funds,they prefer to just keep whinging that there's not enough.

I will disagree here. For example, our entire school was in prefabs for years, we spent a fortune on heating. So when we got our new building, we thought we were sorted. But then discovered that our insurance went through the roof as our new building was considered to be worth much more!

What size school do you serve and does it have DEIS status?

byhookorbycrook

And just to add, that if teachers country-wide stopped putting their hands into their pockets, the shortfall would be far greater.

byhookorbycrook

We are going off topic,big-time... splitting threads.

byhookorbycrook

Moved relevant posts to here!

tabby aspreme

strawberrie wrote: »

Interested to know what parents contribute to the running of the school in terms of voluntary contributions, money for materials activities or fundraising.
Also on a BOM, over 5 years and think you are either fortunate to be on BOM of a school with plenty of cash reserves in the bank or don't have too much involvement with the figures.

€25/ family for materials, that's it, the school is in a good position financially, which makes things easier especially for the first four months of the school year while waiting for dept funds to come in, reserves are replenished by the end of the year. If parents have a valid reason for fundraising we allow it , but due to previous grief caused by fundraising for the sake of it, and for peoples own egos with huge pressure being put on parents and children and people thinking they can run the school and order teachers around if they fundraise, valid reasons are hard found . All board members are involved financially as all are responsible for how money is spent, if heads were too roll for financial issues mine would probably be first , so I'm very involved

byhookorbycrook

tabby aspreme wrote: »

the school is in a good position financially, which makes things easier

And that's probably the difference, most schools are playing catch up all the time, so never have a "cushion" to draw on.