oil boiler help!

Jen44

Hi everyone I wonder if someone can help us with a problem we are having with our boiler. We just bought the house at the end of last year its an old house and the oil boiler which is in the garage looks very very old. The lady we bought the house from said she had the boiler serviced before we moved in, I have my doubts. There is black soot around the walls in the garage where the boiler is. Now it could be there years I dont know! Anyway there were some damp patches on the wall of our landing inside the house directly adjacent to the chimney leading from the oil boiler. We had a damp specialist out and he removed all the damp plaster and put two coats of cemitious compound on the wall and re plastered and put up internal insulation. Now three weeks on there are two small damp patches on the wall again just at the side of the window, luckily the other parts of the wall that were affected most before still seem fine. I should have said we noticed that the damp patches initially got worse after we hired up the thermostat on the boiler which made me think it was condensation seeping through the wall of the chimney into the house. Could there be some sort of problem with the boiler itself that is causing too much condensation up the chimney?? I spoke to a chimney specialist at one point and he said we probably need our chimney re lined? However our plan as soon as we can afford it is to change to gas and be done with using that chimney altogether. Maybe I should just go and get the boiler serviced again?? Can anyone recommend someone decent? Has anyone any other ideas?

Wearb

A badly setup oil boiler can cause the damp problem you described when the chimney is just clay lined. It may not be the problem, but I would certainly have it serviced to rule out such a problem. There is a large variation in the quality of service work.
Post a pic of the boiler.
For recommendations post your approx location.

Jen44

image.jpeg here it is!

Jen44

image.jpeg

I'm based in Raheny Dublin 5

JamesM

There is no obvious sign of recent soot, so it is likely that the burner is burning OK. It is most likely that the gasses are cooling and condensing in the flue and there is a crack, or a bad seal in the clay flue pipe. You can see from the pipework that the system is in since the late 60s or early 70s. The problem would not have occurred with the original boiler which sent a large amount of its heat up the flue, so the gasses did not condense until they reached the open air. This boiler (even if it is a horrible gerkros) is more efficient and the gasses are cooler and therefore condense in the flue. Water then makes its way through the flue liner and the wall on the landing. A service engineer would have to decide, but maybe a lower temperature would keep the condensation lower in the flue near the boiler. A larger nozzle and higher temp setting might keep the gasses from condensing until they exited the top of the chimney - but that will use more oil. If that is an outside wall to the left of the boiler, you could put the flue through that and, once you are using kerosene, have a low level terminal.
Jim.(Retired )

Wearb

Hopefully somebody here can recommend someone. It is a Gerkros boiler.

I don't see many of them. Just a couple left on my rounds.
@Techs! Is the burner falling off this boiler or is it just the way it look in the photo?

DGOBS

sure is, not bolted into position at all

JamesM

DGOBS wrote: »

sure is, not bolted into position at all

That flange has 2 allen screws holding the tube, not the centre bolt.
Jim.

Wearb

JamesM wrote: »

That flange has 2 allen screws holding the tube, not the centre bolt.
Jim.

Is that bolt that we can see just a sort of dept stop then Jim?

Jen44

Any suggestions on what temp I should keep the thermostat at when I put it up to 60 that's when the damp patches got very bad before we got the wall re plastered! Also would it help if we turned the heating on and off over the four hours we usually have it on in the evening? I actually found a really old log of servicing on top of the boiler going back as far as 1988 and it was actually signed for Sep of last year literally a week or so before we moved in! So looks like the lady wasn't telling tails at all! Are we looking at around 5k to replace it with gas? And if we do can we put the boiler anywhere in the garage? We plan to change it into a room at some point! Thanks for all the help lads!

JamesM

Wearb wrote: »

Is that bolt that we can see just a sort of dept stop then Jim?

No, that bolt is often used with the short head, and will pull the burner in tight to the flange, but maybe there is a longer head, or the service guy felt that the flame was too strong on the back of the boiler. One screw is just to the right of the bolt and the other is further to the left. I'm not sure why they are not equidistant from the centre, but I have seen this type of flange.

I am not sure of the solution for Jen44. 60 - 70 is a usual temp. Condensation forms in an old type chimney like that and if there is no liner, water can come through the wall.
It could cost a lot to change the system, because, certainly with gas, and maybe with a condensing oil boiler, you will have to change those old GB pipes and maybe the rads. If you can't put the flue out through the wall, and don't want to change the whole system soon, the cheapest short term solution might be to insert a liner in that chimney.
Jim.

Jen44

Thanks Jim I got a quote for relining the Chimney for 2.5k!! So we couldn't really justify spending that when our plan is to change the whole boiler soon! In terms of how old this boiler looks to you guys would you say we need to change it ASAP? This is my first time to even see an oil boiler as our last house was gas so I've no experience at all with them! Sometimes I can hear a gurgling sound coming from it I'm not sure if that's to do with the fact that I bled one of the rads upstairs recently or not! Would all the water pipes need to be change?? We just got new wooden floors put down !

JamesM

Hi Jen, I am not a plumber or fitter, but I believe that, when installing a gas boiler, it is necessary to get rid of the GB type pipes that I can see in your photos.
There should be a date on the label you can see on that burner. The boiler is likely the same age. Apart from the condensation, there is no need to change it immediately, if you are thinking of gas in a few years. It is not as efficient as the new condensing boilers and a lot more efficient than the original one.
I am retired, but when I was servicing boilers, it was quite common to see a flexible flue liner run from the boiler up through the chimney. There may be some legislation against that now - I am out of touch. It might not look the best, but should be OK in the short term - it could rot in a few years. Some of the guys on here should be able to give you a better idea of cost. I don't believe that it would be anywhere like 2.5k.
Jim.

crock!

Have you had the chimney cleaned.is there a crow guard. I know if it was blocked then boiler would soot up around the baffles.but if it was partially blocked then it would condensate under blockage and marks would come out on the wall.

crock!

2.5 k is well above what it should cost.

Jen44

I'm not sure if the chimney was swept before we moved in! We just got a rain cowl fitted a few weeks ago in case rain coming down the chimney was adding to the problem! If it didn't cost so much to line the chimney we would consider that in the short term! The rads are not brilliant some of them have patchy heat so the whole system could prob do with being flushed! I did bleed the rad in our room coz it was cold at the top and some water that came out was black! But it's cool at the bottom now so it's prob a bit sludged up!!

Wearb

JamesM wrote: »

No, that bolt is often used with the short head, and will pull the burner in tight to the flange, but maybe there is a longer head, or the service guy felt that the flame was too strong on the back of the boiler. One screw is just to the right of the bolt and the other is further to the left. I'm not sure why they are not equidistant from the centre, but I have seen this type of flange.

I am not sure of the solution for Jen44. 60 - 70 is a usual temp. Condensation forms in an old type chimney like that and if there is no liner, water can come through the wall.
It could cost a lot to change the system, because, certainly with gas, and maybe with a condensing oil boiler, you will have to change those old GB pipes and maybe the rads. If you can't put the flue out through the wall, and don't want to change the whole system soon, the cheapest short term solution might be to insert a liner in that chimney.
Jim.

Thanks for that Jim.

OP's immediate solution will be to make sure the boiler isn't under-fired. Perhaps even slightly over-firing may help. Running boiler for a half or 1 hour every now and then with long gaps between heat on times, could also contribute to the problem.

Jen44

Is that something I can check myself or do I need to get a plumber out? Sorry for all the questions but we generally have the heat on from 16:00 till 21:00 would I be better just having it on constantly for that time or having it off for an hour or so in the middle?

crock!

Your oil supplier would love you if you leave it on constant .what the guys are saying is to have the temputure of the hot flue gasses burning hotter.possible drop co2 a bit .I think at this point you can't assume anything without having it serviced by a competent enginer before going any further.burner is hanging lose and by the looks of it it needs a new gasket.get the simple stuff done first before doing a big spend.

Wearb

Jen44 wrote: »

Is that something I can check myself or do I need to get a plumber out? Sorry for all the questions but we generally have the heat on from 16:00 till 21:00 would I be better just having it on constantly for that time or having it off for an hour or so in the middle?

Those time are fine, so that isn't likely to be contributing to the problem. Next thing (and it will take a service person to do this) is to check nozzle size and pump pressure against boiler output capacity. I would fire the boiler at maximum capacity for a week to see if it helps. That will be your cheapest thing to try.

Jen44

How do I do that?anyone know any decent service people? getting the cheaper easier to fix stuff is definitely the route we want to go down but I'm just worried that some bogus service guy will have one quick chat with me and know I haven't a clue about anything to do with oil boilers so I'm worried if it's not someone decent we could get ripped off! I don't want to use the service guy that the previous people used coz the wall was already damp on the landing before we moved in so I'd say this problem is going on a while! Part of me thinks we might be better off just upgrading to a new oil boiler but the fact we want to change the garage to a room going forward means we won't have access to the oil tank out the back! Plus the problems we have inherited with this oil boiler is making us nervous of sticking with oil! In ten years I never had any major issue with my old gas boiler!

Wearb

There are good lads on here, but might be very busy at the moment. Hope some of them contacts you.

Btw, my solution is not a certain fix, it is just something that I think should be checked out. Also it might be a good idea to have fresh eyes on it. Perhaps you may have the option of going straight out to an outside wall.

JamesM

crock! wrote: »

Your oil supplier would love you if you leave it on constant .what the guys are saying is to have the temputure of the hot flue gasses burning hotter.possible drop co2 a bit .I think at this point you can't assume anything without having it serviced by a competent enginer before going any further.burner is hanging lose and by the looks of it it needs a new gasket.get the simple stuff done first before doing a big spend.

If you look at my 2 posts above, you might agree that the burner is not hanging loose, but is held by the 2 screws on the flange.
I did think of the flue being blocked because there is no cleaning door, but I could not see any real evidence, even though there is a slight soot mark on the burner. The Gerkros boiler always seems to have a bad seal on the front cover, as you can see by the rust marks down the front of the boiler from condensation.
Jim.

JamesM

Jen44 wrote: »

How do I do that?anyone know any decent service people? getting the cheaper easier to fix stuff is definitely the route we want to go down but I'm just worried that some bogus service guy will have one quick chat with me and know I haven't a clue about anything to do with oil boilers so I'm worried if it's not someone decent we could get ripped off! I don't want to use the service guy that the previous people used coz the wall was already damp on the landing before we moved in so I'd say this problem is going on a while! Part of me thinks we might be better off just upgrading to a new oil boiler but the fact we want to change the garage to a room going forward means we won't have access to the oil tank out the back! Plus the problems we have inherited with this oil boiler is making us nervous of sticking with oil! In ten years I never had any major issue with my old gas boiler!

One point, If you feed the new boiler into that flue, you will need to have it lined no matter what boiler you use. Are you sure that you cannot feed the flue out through an outside wall ?
Jim.

Wearb

@ JamesM. You must be bored out of your mind with retirement ;(. Why don't you pop up there and have a gander.

JamesM

Wearb wrote: »

@ JamesM. You must be bored out of your mind with retirement ;(. Why don't you pop up there and have a gander.

Another month before the boat is back in the water
I keep telling myself to stay away from this forum, and then I see a thread after a "little drop of red" and can't stop myself from answering.
I got in trouble with my answers before, so everyone please ignore me and I will fade back into the ether
Jim.

Wearb

Keep hanging around. Even with a wee dram, your replies are always helpful. Don't worry about getting into trouble. It's a public forum and we all get some stick at times.

Jen44

I for one am delighted you took the time to respond Jim! Unfortunitly there is a lean to connected to the side of the house directly outside the garage! It has a Perspex roof so I would say that rules out bringing the flue out the side wall! I think our best bet is just change to a gas boiler and not use that chimney at all! Will we be able to put the gas boiler near the front of the garage and vent it out the front? I really wish the previous owners just got a new chimney lining done when the problem started! We've already paid 1.5k to remove the wet plaster and put up the insulation my nerves are gone that we will have to rip it all down! We've a young baby so at the same time we do need to keep the heating on even tho I know it's contributing to the problem!

JamesM

I only worked with oil systems and can't give you all the answers. There are an awful lot of regulations to be considered when installing a gas boiler, so only the person/company that you ask for a quote will see the house and be able to give you the answers to, location of the boiler, whether new pipework and rads are needed and, of course, the cost of all this.
Jim.

Dtp1979

Wearb wrote: »

Keep hanging around. Even with a wee dram, your replies are always helpful. Don't worry about getting into trouble. It's a public forum and we all get some stick at times.

Can't beat learning from experienced guys. Stick around James.

Dtp1979

Jen44 wrote: »

I for one am delighted you took the time to respond Jim! Unfortunitly there is a lean to connected to the side of the house directly outside the garage! It has a Perspex roof so I would say that rules out bringing the flue out the side wall! I think our best bet is just change to a gas boiler and not use that chimney at all! Will we be able to put the gas boiler near the front of the garage and vent it out the front? I really wish the previous owners just got a new chimney lining done when the problem started! We've already paid 1.5k to remove the wet plaster and put up the insulation my nerves are gone that we will have to rip it all down! We've a young baby so at the same time we do need to keep the heating on even tho I know it's contributing to the problem!

Yes there should be no problem putting the gas boiler wherever you want, as long as it's within regulations.
You might not need to replace the gunbarrell piping but it's something that should be done in my opinion, as it doesn't last forever.
I've flushed several gunbarrell systems that were perfectly fine after 20 years apart from sludge buildup, but all systems vary.
There should be no problem installing a gas boiler on your system.

DGOBS

That flange has 2 allen screws holding the tube, not the centre bolt.
Jim.

Sorry for the late reply, JIM IMHO, the burner should never be fitted in such a manner, as there is no burner-mounting flag seal, and the result is flue gas leakage. If the flame is impinging on the rear of the combustion chamber with the correct burner output, then the blast-tube (or burner type) is incompatible with the boiler and requires changing.

Please don't always sit back, your opinions are valued, as are all here.

Jen44

is that something i need to get fixed urgently...i never even noticed it before but had a look since you guys mentioned it and there is a screw there its just not in right

JamesM

DGOBS wrote: »

Sorry for the late reply, JIM IMHO, the burner should never be fitted in such a manner, as there is no burner-mounting flag seal, and the result is flue gas leakage. If the flame is impinging on the rear of the combustion chamber with the correct burner output, then the blast-tube (or burner type) is incompatible with the boiler and requires changing.

Please don't always sit back, your opinions are valued, as are all here.

It could be that the screws are not tightened and the bolt should be used. Naturally I can't tell why the last service guy did it that way.
It is not a condensing boiler where there is a lot of pressure in the chamber. There should be a good draught up through the boiler and flue. There is a slight mark on the burner, but no real sign of back pressure. It's in the garage, I would think that it is quite safe.
I'm showing my age here, but if you look at most burners, apart from Riello, over 10 to 15 years old, you will see that there is no seal around the tube and the burner is held in by 2 screws in the flange. Selectos, Bentone, Nu-Way, CTC etc.
Jim.