Hills - struggling, any advice?

ezra_

I go out about once a week with a group in Wicklow.

The group I'm with a the 'mid range' cyclists, they've all been going for at least a couple of years (most longer), I only started to doing road spins in October.

My problem is that I'm getting dropped constantly on the hills. I can keep up on the flat, do my time in the front, but I can't match their speed on the hills. I can average 20k on a gentle gradient, and drop to about 10 when it gets steep.

My worry is as follows: I sort of skipped the beginners group because none of them bothered to go out over the winter, so I defaulted into the mid range. They do c. 70-80 spins at about a 25k average (usually 10-20 of this is hilly[this is wicklow]). They (beginner group) are going out now but their spins aren't that challenging.

I'm causing them to wait for a few mins in the shi**y weather and this pisses me off.

Apart from just getting out and doing more hills, what can I do to try and hold the group?

Honestly, my head gives up before my legs do, this hurts more than the inevitable cramps when we are done. Hard to fix though.

Bike is a Felt 595 (cheapo), running a Sora groupset, someone has suggested changing the cassette; its a 25 to a 30/32.
Bike is here: http://www.wiggle.co.uk/felt-f95-sora-wiggle-exclusive/

Luxman

What weight are you? This will be a major factor to your speed on hills. Its a tried and tested motto, but 'do more hills' but go out on your own and do repeats on them about 1 minute flat out on a 4 or 5% incline, forget about speed, go by your heart rate if you have a monitor. Repeats sessions about twice a week. And/or find a club mate in the same group who is faster than you and have them lead up the hill (to chase).

ezra_

Luxman wrote: »

What weight are you? This will be a major factor to your speed on hills. Its a tried and tested motto, but 'do more hills' but go out on your own and do repeats on them about 1 minute flat out on a 4 or 5% incline, forget about speed, go by your heart rate if you have a monitor. Repeats sessions about twice a week. And/or find a club mate in the same group who is faster than you and have them lead up the hill (to chase).

I'm dropping quite a bit of weight but still on the wrong side of 13st (too heavy, I know). I'm 6ft.

Every member of the group is faster than me on the hills. They also do turbo training once a week, worth doing?

Planning on trying to cycle part of the way home (get the hill over Bohernabreena and down into Blessington) once it gets a bit brighter.

Would the move from 25 -> 32 make any difference in real terms?

07Lapierre

I think 25 - 32 is too big! You'd probably need a new chain, new cassette and a new rear derailleur. if you have a short cage rear derailleur, the largest rear sprocket that will fit will be a 27 or 28.

ezra_

07Lapierre wrote: »

I think 25 - 32 is too big! You'd probably need a new chain, new cassette and a new rear derailleur. if you have a short cage rear derailleur, the largest rear sprocket that will fit will be a 27 or 28.

Honestly, I don't understand any of the above!

outfox

Just keep doing hills in your own time, 1-2 times a week. No need to go nuts on them - just keep climbing at a steady pace.
You might not see significant results for a couple of months, but you WILL see results.
Lift your leg when the pedal hits the bottom of the cycle.
Spin more. Aim for a cadence around 90-95 RPM.
Changing the cassette is worthwhile if your cadence drops to below 70 RPM on climbs.

ezra_

I find what works well is sliding my ass back as far as I can so I'm pressing down with the legs. I usually bring my hands off the hoods and on the bar near the stem.

Cadence is well below 60rpm when the going gets steep. Don't have a sensor but its very slow.
I live near Hollywood Hill so I might start trying to do a couple of reps of that on a Saturday.

xz

If it's the Bray Wheelers, you are going out with, don't get worried about holding people up, I'm guessing it's Kevin, taking the spins, I used to go out with that group a lot, but haven't cycled in a couple of years now, I never got my weight below 15 stone, but eventually was able to keep up, if not surpass some people on the climbs. I ran a compact chainset and a 12-30 cassette, like anything, the more you do the climbs, the better you will get,fitness and technique play a part in good climbing no matter what your weight

Deagol

ezra_ wrote: »

I find what works well is sliding my ass back as far as I can so I'm pressing down with the legs. I usually bring my hands off the hoods and on the bar near the stem.

Cadence is well below 60rpm when the going gets steep. Don't have a sensor but its very slow.
I live near Hollywood Hill so I might start trying to do a couple of reps of that on a Saturday.

Best €50 you'll ever spend is getting properly fitted on the bike!

ezra_

xz wrote: »

If it's the Bray Wheelers, you are going out with, don't get worried about holding people up, I'm guessing it's Kevin, taking the spins, I used to go out with that group a lot, but haven't cycled in a couple of years now, I never got my weight below 15 stone, but eventually was able to keep up, if not surpass some people on the climbs. I ran a compact chainset and a 12-30 cassette, like anything, the more you do the climbs, the better you will get,fitness and technique play a part in good climbing no matter what your weight

I'm the other side of wicklow.

They don't seem to mind (in that I've not been told off) but I don't like having them wait around.

07Lapierre

ezra_ wrote: »

Honestly, I don't understand any of the above!

The largest sprocket on your rear wheel at the moment is a 25 right? ( smallest is probably an 11 or 12?)
You've been advised to change it to a 30?

I'm saying that to do this, you will need a new cassette, new rear derailler and a new chain.

im suggesting you fit a 27x12 cassette on the rear wheel. By doing this you won't have to buy a new derailler. (You'll still need a new chain)

ezra_

Cheers - yes, a new cassette/chain was mentioned. Not sure if a new derailler is needed as it seems to be able to a 32.

I think about 50 quid was the price they said, need to ask in the LBS though!

G1032

ezra_ wrote: »

Honestly, I don't understand any of the above!

25 is the amount of teeth on the biggest cog on your rear cassette.
Rear derailleurs come with different cage lengths. Small or medium (sometimes called long). The long cage derailleurs can accommodate a cassette with 30 or 32 teeth on the biggest cog. The short cage cannot accommodate 32 teeth.
If you want to change your cassette to one with a largest cog of 32 teeth you will need to buy a new derailleur (long cage). You'll also need a new chain.

FWIW I remember switching from a 25 to a 30 a couple of years ago and didn't need a new chain or derailleur. The short cage handled the 30 just fine. Shimano does recommended a long cage though for anything above 28 teeth.

Going from a 25 to a 32 is an absolutely enormous leap. I'll post the percentages in a while when I get on the laptop.

TheBlaaMan

You may feel a bit on the heavy side, but TBH, 13st / 82kg at 6ft isn't seriously heavy, if you lost 5-6kg you would see the benefit, but trying to lose more than that might prove tough and take a while. I would be an advocate of changing the cassette but beyond a 28 you will possibly have to look at a change of rear mech also, so probably not worth it. After that, and the good advise above about a bike for and lots of practise on hills, I'd caution about your approach to the hill and bet that you are going to hard, to early, in an attempt (unsuccessful) to 'keep up ' with the group. Climb at your own pace esp on the first half oh the hill and stay well below your max (if you don't use a hear rate monitor, it work be a good investment....), others will climb faster and streak ahead but if you hold back and ' let the hill come to you ' you will have reserves to push on in the second half and you are likely to start catching up on them. Don't climb at anyones pace other than your own. If you blow your lights out early on the climb, you will just go slower and slower to the top.

albert kidd

motor.

close thread.

ezra_

albert kidd wrote: »

motor.

close thread.

The stopping in Topaz mid trip might raise a few eyebrows...

Cee-Jay-Cee

Get a 12/28 cassette. You don't need a 30 if your managing the hills on a 25 albeit a little slower than others.

I had a 11/25 on my Ridley and changed to a 12/30 but swapped it within a few weeks for a 12/28 as in ever used the 30 even on the steeper stuff.

Drop another few kilos and you'll find hills a little easier.

Wishbone Ash

ezra_ wrote: »

... someone has suggested changing the cassette; its a 25 to a 30/32...

While that would give you a few lower gears and make climbing easier, it won't make you faster on the climbs. If anything, it will make you slower (although you'll expend less energy).

07Lapierre wrote: »

I think 25 - 32 is too big! You'd probably need a new chain, new cassette and a new rear derailleur. if you have a short cage rear derailleur, the largest rear sprocket that will fit will be a 27 or 28.

ezra_ wrote: »

Honestly, I don't understand any of the above!

If you switched from your current lowest gear (25 tooth sprocket) to a 30 or 32 tooth sprocket, you will require a longer chain (as the sprocket circumference will be a lot larger). The cage that 07Lapierre refers to is the part with the two jockey wheels which takes up the slack when you switch to higher gears (i.e. smaller sprockets). A bike with a 32 sprocket will require a cage which is able to function at both extremes for your lowest and highest gears. Your current one will may not be capable of doing this as it may be set up for a 25 or 27.

G1032

Say the small ring on the front is a 34 for calculation purposes with 23mm tyre

34/25 = 35.8 inches
34/32 = 27.9 inches

You'd be talking a 28% difference between your 25 and 32 cogs That's colossal

http://www.bikecalc.com/gear_inches

ezra_

TheBlaaMan wrote: »

After that, and the good advise above about a bike for and lots of practise on hills, I'd caution about your approach to the hill and bet that you are going to hard, to early, in an attempt (unsuccessful) to 'keep up ' with the group. Climb at your own pace esp on the first half oh the hill and stay well below your max (if you don't use a hear rate monitor, it work be a good investment....), others will climb faster and streak ahead but if you hold back and ' let the hill come to you ' you will have reserves to push on in the second half and you are likely to start catching up on them. Don't climb at anyones pace other than your own. If you blow your lights out early on the climb, you will just go slower and slower to the top.

This - I find this hard.

I used to do this and was killing myself.

I've started now to let the others take off when they go up the hill and try to go at my own pace. But its very hard to keep the gremlins out of my head when I see this, esp at about the 2/3rds mark.

On a not too steep climb, I can usually keep the same distance (30-50m) behind the group, as they slow down and I can hold it steady then. On steeper ones, I'm well off the pace (group does stretch out though).

I find it hard to manage the 'make it up the hill fast' vs 'you still have 15k with more hills to go' balance.

Couple of times I've just walked the last bit; hate myself for giving up and what makes it worse is that I can then hop back up and spin away. Feels like the right thing at the time though!

G1032

ezra_ wrote: »

I'm dropping quite a bit of weight but still on the wrong side of 13st (too heavy, I know). I'm 6ft.

Every member of the group is faster than me on the hills. They also do turbo training once a week, worth doing?

Planning on trying to cycle part of the way home (get the hill over Bohernabreena and down into Blessington) once it gets a bit brighter.

Would the move from 25 -> 32 make any difference in real terms?

At 13st and 6ft you don't have a huge amount of weight to lose (probably not even over weight as it is)
But even a half a stone lighter will make climbing noticeably easier.
Also, if you're not doing so already, you could work on core strength and strength in general. That'll also help - use the glutes

xz

Very hard to avoid hills in Wicklow, cyclists are a great bunch in the most part, and believe it or not, waiting at the top for the slower climbers is a welcome rest for some

EAD

I'd suggest not doing hill reps on Hollywood Hill for the moment, it's almost too hard. You might be better served facing the other direction and heading towards Dunlavin up to Tober. It is longer and (somewhat) gentler but you'll know all about it after a couple of efforts.

Daroxtar

I was terrible at climbing hills a year ago. I'm not great yet but I'm far more comfortable at them. I actually far prefer hilly terrain now than the flat.

I had no idea how to pace myself. HR monitor made a big difference, although just getting to know your own body is pretty much the same thing. As has been said plenty of times already, climb at your own pace. Stay below your limit and when you see the crest you can give it welly for the last push over the top.
Intervals helped me, 5x5mins at my threshold made a difference fairly quickly but 2x20 at just a little below threshold made a bigger difference psychologically and stopped me blowing my gasket before the top.
Definitely change your cassette to a 28 or 30 if you can get away with it. I've got a 32 on the back. I almost never use it now but it was a help at the start.

Finally, practice the hills you're riding. I know that sounds obvious but the more familiar you get with a hill the less daunting it will become. You'll know where you can hold back a bit or where you have to give it a bit more.
"It never gets easier, You just get faster"

xz

Think it's about time I broke out the Planet X again, going to need new tires and cabling though after it being hung in the shed for so long

JK.BMC

I understand your problem- I have been dropped regularly on hills too, being the wrong side of 13st/82kg for ages.
But remember this- some of the greatest cyclists in history, the great classics riders for example, have been this weight and heavier, so stop worrying why you are not doing better and start by ignoring a lot of the gear-ratio / long-cage derailleur advice above, which is more confusing than helpful I think

Climbing a hill, when all is considered, is effectively a power-to-weight ratio exercise, assuming you have a functioning bike and a decent technique of sorts. That's it. Nothing more. Honestly, don't be taken by all kinds of notions about changing the bike as if this is the magic solution. That's the typical BS you tend to hear from bike shop salesmen who are trying to cod you.

More specifically, to go faster up a hill:
a) lose weight (including the bike itself, although a diet is cheaper)
b) increase power (train specifically; eg 5min strength intervals, see post by EAD above)
c) improve pedalling technique and position whilst climbing (this is an individual thing)
d) or a combination of the above., ideally

And stop measuring yourself by the efforts of others, who appear not to have the decency to encourage you to get better, or climb with you on your struggles.
Maybe consider a new club instead of a new 'long cage derailleur' if all else fails.

funnights74

If your in Wicklow check out Aidan Hammond, he's based there and it will be money well spent. http://www.bikefittingireland.com/

Bloggsie

Like you, I am a brutal climber, I live in county flat (kildare) so i have little or no hills, I have spun over to greystones from home & that was an adventure. I was told the mantra to follow on hills is to start like an old man, finish like a young man!

Never let your head tell you stop, if your legs or lungs tell you then think about it, if its your heart then 100% stop!

Keep on climbing

Tenzor07

Obviously you need a new lighter bike, e.g. https://www.canyon.com/en-ie/road/ultimate/2016/ultimate-cf-slx-9-0-aero.html

Macy0161

Do you get the routes before your spins, like a day or two? You mention going through and doing your turn - could you position yourself so you don't do your turn before the hardest hills? Just try and conserve a bit of energy?

Is the turbo session a club one/ structured one? In our clubs turbo sessions, we do have specific hill/ climbing sessions. If you're doing the turbo by yourself, the likes of GCN (Global Cycling Network) have youtube spin/ turbo sessions that are aimed towards hill climbing that you could work on in between the spins.

rigal

It sounds like you may be in the wrong group. If you have only been cycling for 5-6months and getting on the bike once a week you are always going to lag behind more experienced, fitter cyclists. These guys are training 2-3 times a week right? If you enjoy this particular group maybe buy a turbo and do 1-2 sessions mid week or get out on the road a couple of evenings.

You have done well so far so don't be too hard on yourself and have patience.

outfox

If the OP wants to improve (and it sounds like he does), he's probably better off riding with the faster group than with the beginner group.

The Flying Vet

From your initial post you seem to go out once a week. I think the biggest benefit you will get is by increasing your frequency of spins. Don't worry about changing cassettes, if you can get up the hill the gearing is probably ok. If you could fit in 2 one hour turbo sessions during the week you will be amazed at your improvement in about 3 weeks. Keep at it!!

Corker1

Seeing as you only started cycling in October and you only get out most weeks it sounds like you have limited 'miles in the legs' and limited 'climbs in the legs'. Natural climbing ability comes easy to only a lucky few - even they have to train to get better. The rest of us have to work hard to improve on the hills and maintain any training gains. Going out on a club spin once every couple of weeks is not going to bring you on. Cycling fitness and strength fade quickly (detraining). Many of the guys and gals on the club ride will be getting out a few times a week and are supplementing that road work with turbo sessions. Seeing as the group are waiting for you there is obviously a no drop policy. It is much easier to keep a group together on the flat than on the hills. I'm sure your group do not mind waiting as they were all beginners once. Sure, getting a 28 cog on the back will help, dropping a Kilo or two won't do any harm either, though it doesn't seem you are overweight. What will make the biggest difference is the effort you are prepared to put in training in the hills, for the hills, between club rides. A few weeks of the correct training can reap huge dividends in building physical strength and more importantly psychollogical toughness to deal with steep gradients. If you stick with it, it won't be long until you are keeping up with the group and passing some of them on the climbs. A couple of things to keep in mind; everybody hurts on the climbs to a varying extent even though they may not show it. Please resist the temptation to walk unless you are injured or have a mechanical. Cycling is always going to get you to the top quicker than walking and will keep the group waiting for less time. When you feel the urge to walk back off your effort for a few seconds, breath deep and recover a bit then keep spinning it steady to the top. Don't be shy to ask fellow riders in the club for advice or tips - most are happy to share their experience. So persevere, do the work and enjoy the rewards!

C3PO

I assume you have a Compact crank? Changing to a 27 or 28 at the back will definitely help but the best advice is to get out and climb more! Cycling once a week and expecting to stay with an intermediate club group is just too optimistic! Also try to approach the climbs towards the front of the group so that you're not getting shelled as soon as the climb starts. I don't think your weight is a problem - obviously lighter is better for climbing but you're not exactly obese!!

Taxuser1

agree with many of the posters. you're in the wrong group, you're not doing enough and you're only a baby to the sport albeit a 13 stone baby.

You've loads to learn and you're only going to get more disenchanted with the bike if you take a hammering with the group you're in. learn to pedal efficiency in a group of similiar ability. More often than not, it's pedalling a gear you're comfortable with. As you get fitter and stronger the gears will get bigger and you'll be going quicker.

just to point out as well that if you're doing a good few hills pounding gears at 60 rpm cadence you will run into knee trouble sooner rather than later if only just taking up the sport. I think adult cyclists taking it up for the first time should try restricted gears like the underage riders. You'll learn to pedal the bike before pushing the bigger gears.

ezra_

Tenzor07 wrote: »

Obviously you need a new lighter bike, e.g. https://www.canyon.com/en-ie/road/ultimate/2016/ultimate-cf-slx-9-0-aero.html

Why does that bike come with a charger?!

ezra_

Thanks guys - plenty of good advice there.

To be clear; this is in no way a pop of the people I head out with (some comments seem to be negative for them). Sound guys, helpful as well.

The main reason for this thread was threefold:

1) Are their any 'easy wins' that I should do to make things simpler. Doesn't seem so
2) What is the best way to increase training - reps on hills, intervals and turbo are options. These are new, I hadn't heard of reps or intervals before. Don't think I'm going to like them!
3) Unknown unknowns, are there other things I should be aware of / thinking about that I don't know about. Doesn't seem so.

In short - train more, train smarter. Eat less/better!
I want to make sure that spins on the bike are training, rather than just spins. Hence the thread and its great to get such feedback.

RobertFoster

ezra_ wrote: »

Why does that bike come with a charger?!

The shifting is electronic.

ezra_

ezra_ wrote: »

Why does that bike come with a charger?!

RobertFoster wrote: »

The shifting is electronic.

Hadn't seen that before - looks cool. Wonder if it helps with hills.......

outfox

Sounds like a lot of your hills issue might be psychological, which is understandable. I was the same one time. Three things helped in this regard, I found:

1. Do the hills at your own pace. Start steady, and cruise away. Forget about trying to race it.
2. I found the longest hardest hill I could find (Mt. Teide on Tenerife - 43 km climb, altho only about 4-6 %). After a week of this, every hill now seems a doddle. Maybe you could find a tough hill somewhere, and 'beat' it.
3. When coming to a hill, move to the front of the group. The other guys wont mind, and will understand. You will hang in with the group for longer, and you'll feel like you are flying up.

Several of the above have already been mentioned by other posters. Just remember - it's all in the head.

lissard

Echo all the comments from other posters. I reckon nearly anyone can climb up a hill given enough time. I was used to climbing the hills in Wicklow by myself before joining a club. Doing them as part of a group at pace was a different challenge entirely. I certainly remember chasing up the hill into Rathdown and arriving last and half dead at the top. Rather appropriately the group was waiting for me at the gates of an undertakers! It's all about practice and pacing and an extra 2-3kmph makes a big difference in the hills.

C3PO

ezra_ wrote: »

In short - train more, train smarter. Eat less/better! .

And don't beat yourself up ... it's supposed to be fun! You'll be amazed how quickly you'll improve with regular outings!

ezra_

C3PO wrote: »

And don't beat yourself up ... it's supposed to be fun! You'll be amazed how quickly you'll improve with regular outings!

It is fun!