Water Softener System Yay or Nay

Dublinmuppet

Have a bit of a lime scale problem here in North County Dublin. only really notice it in shower head and doors. would anyone recommend getting one,don't have a huge amount of money to spend so don't want to waste money if they are a load of crap.

Speedwell

Much cheaper to just scrub the doors and soak the shower head in vinegar overnight, than to buy an expensive machine that you need to keep stocked with special chemicals and maintain mechanically. It would be different if you couldn't make a proper cup of tea or wash your clothes, or if it was causing actual damage to your plumbing.

Dublinmuppet

Don't mind scrubbing the bathroom was just hoping for a lazy way out. was reading the testimonials on one of the flyers and am not ashamed to say that I usually get sucked in

Ten Pin

Keep ongoing costs in mind (servicing etc).

There's a few owner opinions on this link (it's a little out of date but may be of some guidance).

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/threads/water-softner-yearly-servicing-racket.103062/

Dublinmuppet

Good reading thanks for the link. when I was doing a bit of googling Clack is the one everyone raves about. I was getting sucked in by EWT advertising

porcupine3

Do you have a private well or are you connected to the mains water supply?
If you have a well there's an excellent grant available for purifying the water (not supposed to cover water softening but...).
Getting rid of limescale is worth it I assure you. Maintenance cost ~€120 per year, insignificant electricity usage, about €8 for a bag of salt about every 6 weeks. Hope this helps you.

Dtp1979

Speedwell wrote: »

Much cheaper to just scrub the doors and soak the shower head in vinegar overnight, than to buy an expensive machine that you need to keep stocked with special chemicals and maintain mechanically. It would be different if you couldn't make a proper cup of tea or wash your clothes, or if it was causing actual damage to your plumbing.

Special chemicals? You mean salt.
Yes it is expensive.
And yes it is damaging your plumbing system. Anything with a heating element will be destroyed. For example,
Washing machine
Shower
Dishwasher
Kettle
Immersion
Toilet ballcocks
Attic ballcocks
Taps
Hot water cylinder eventually.
soaking it in vinegar or scrubbing it is only a short term solution.

Dublinmuppet

No I do not have a well. It's a 4 bed end of terrace in an estate. What's expensive?? Some of the links I read talked about annual service and filters. Others seemed to b more expensive systems but no servicing?

Sleeper12

It depends on where in North country Dublin you are. Some people living in Balbriggan have to replace the element in their electric shower every 18 months because of the limescale. Their washing machine and dishwasher cost more to runs & their lifespan is years shorter.
In Balbriggan they savings by far outweigh the cost. If you live in swords then there's less limescale & it might not be worth spending on a watersofting system.

I've never met anyone in Balbriggan not happy with their water softening system

youtheman

Possibly one of the biggest disadvantages of retrofitting a water softener is that you will end up with all you water being softened, including the water you use for drinking, cooking and washing your teeth. It will have trace elements of salt, which is not good for blood pressure etc. Ideally, you should have at least a few taps with un-softened water.

You could put in a Reverse Osmosis unit to remove the salt, but this is more cost.

If you are getting one they I would advise getting a 'metered' one rather than a 'timed' one. Will possibly save you some money on consumables (salt).

Water John

A softening unit only requires salt once a month.
Usually the mains comes into your house by the kitchen. Have a plumber fit the unit under the sink AFTER the tap off for the pressured cold kitchen tap.
That gives you untreated water for drinking and cooking. All the rest of the house will have softened water.
Cost 5/700 euro.
The salt for it is cheap.
Save your heating system, immersion, shower, washing machine and dishwasher.
Do it if you feel it a real problem.
Don't go near Reverse Osmosis.

Dtp1979

Water John wrote: »

A softening unit only requires salt once a month.
Usually the mains comes into your house by the kitchen. Have a plumber fit the unit under the sink AFTER the tap off for the pressured cold kitchen tap.
That gives you untreated water for drinking and cooking. All the rest of the house will have softened water.
Cost 5/700 euro.
The salt for it is cheap.
Save your heating system, immersion, shower, washing machine and dishwasher.
Do it if you feel it a real problem.
Don't go near Reverse Osmosis.

Limescale has nothing to do with a heating system so softened water will not help it.
There is nothing wrong with reverse osmosis water.

NIMAN

We have very very bad limescale where I live, got in a system just over a year ago, and it's the best thing I ever spent money on.

It cost the guts of 1k but I think it was cheap at that.

It's very easy on salt, takes none of our time and our water is perfect now.

Water John

Its the heating elements that precipitate out the lime from the water heating up.
It has everything to do with it.

RO is useful in very difficult situations of something like brackish water.
Uses a lot of electricity and backwash uses a significant amount of water in them.
There is no need for this cost.

Dtp1979

Water John wrote: »

Its the heating elements that precipitate out the lime from the water heating up.
It has everything to do with it.

RO is useful in very difficult situations of something like brackish water.
Uses a lot of electricity and backwash uses a significant amount of water in them.
There is no need for this cost.

A heat exchanger will not corrode with limescale unless fresh water is introduced continually. This will or should not happen on a heating system.
RO, or at least decent ones, don't use electricity.
And again, the decent ones don't waste much water.
Apart from near perfect drinking water, then yes, there's no need for them.

irelandspurs

We got a clack system 3 years ago, best purchase we bought for our house since we moved in 11 years ago. We got it from this crowd http://www.thewatertreatmentcentre.ie/ cost us €600 and paid €300 upfront and the other €300 by direct debit over 10 months.

creedp

irelandspurs wrote: »

We got a clack system 3 years ago, best purchase we bought for our house since we moved in 11 years ago. We got it from this crowd http://www.thewatertreatmentcentre.ie/ cost us €600 and paid €300 upfront and the other €300 by direct debit over 10 months.

Looking at similar system myself. Wondering did you get the smaller under the sink unit or the larger 10x54 unit? Also did you get the RO system and if so what model? I've been told that the older units with pressure vessels are expensive to maintain and run and waste a lot of water but my enquiries to-date (albeit not very extensive) would suggest many suppliers only supply the older units.

It was also suggested that to avoid the need for a RO unit not to soften the drinking water supply to the kitchen tap. This will still result in furred kettles but avoid the expense of a RO unit. Which approach did you opt for?

Another option that was strongly recommended to me for a private well is the installation of an ultra violet treatment system costing about €150 but I don't know what the ongoing maintenance/running costs are? Was this recommended to you and did you install?

Thanks in advance for your assistance

irelandspurs

We got the smaller unit under the sink which seems big enough. We used to have a 5 stage ro unit under sink for drinking water but removed it when we got this unit in and just fill kettle from tap now.

creedp

irelandspurs wrote: »

We got the smaller unit under the sink which seems big enough. We used to have a 5 stage ro unit under sink for drinking water but removed it when we got this unit in and just fill kettle from tap now.

Thanks for that. Given that, from the description above, you use softened water for drinking and cooking etc did you notice any change in the taste of the water?

I was thinking of opting not to soften the cold supply to the kitchen tap but when I checked the plumbing set up under the kitchen sink I found that the dishwasher is plumbed directly from the cold kitchen tap so that option would result in the water for the dishwasher not being softened. I might instead opt to soften the full supply to the house and fit an RO at a later stage if deemed necessary. Thanks again

Water John

The only issue that arises is that you are adding salt to your drinking and cooking water.
A plumber should be able to resplit the mains for you. Take off a third tap first for drinking and treat the rest, best option.

aah yes

Water John wrote: »

The only issue that arises is that you are adding salt to your drinking and cooking water.
A plumber should be able to resplit the mains for you. Take off a third tap first for drinking and treat the rest, best option.

With a water softener, you are definitely NOT adding salt to the water !!

Salt is sodium chloride, and the saltiness of the taste of chloride is only detectable by the human tongue in levels up at a few thousand ppm or mg/l.

In softened water you only have trace levels of sodium from 50 to 150 ppm typically and no chlorides, as chloride is not part of the ion exchange process.

So without chlorides you have no sodium chloride (no salt).

Its like without bacon you have no bacon and cabbage. Just cabbage, and just a tiny strand of cabbage. A wee scither of a thing.

When a plumber talks about salt and water softening, using the metaphor again, it is like he is thinking about a big plate of steaming bacon and ham dripping with butter, with the guilt of Lent hanging over him pressurising him not to tuck in, (and coming back out of the metaphor, the plumber not recommending a softener for drinking related matters.)

But if he knew it was only a wee tiny strand of cabbage he was talking about, like a stray piece of cotton thread, his Lent challenge would be a doddle.

aah yes

Ten Pin wrote: »

Keep ongoing costs in mind (servicing etc).

There's a few owner opinions on this link (it's a little out of date but may be of some guidance).

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/threads/water-softner-yearly-servicing-racket.103062/

A more up to date trimmed adjustment of one of the posts there back in 2009 ...


"Annual servicing for a typical water softener on mains water is a complete nonsense, ... happy to take customers for a ride - annual salt costs should only be around 20 euros for good metered softeners if on supplies for smaller water use or milder scale.

It is true that many larger water softeners will run on for up to 20 years without any servicing and possibly last for 40 years, but at the other extreme, if they were incorrectly sized and improperly calibrated you could have trouble from day one.

So the wrong way to go is buy mini cabinet water softeners intended for one or two people apartments and hope they will run for decades on a larger house, unless a small Clack softener from 8x17 from €399 DIY.

You may end up paying 500 to 700 euros for a Chinese Canature / Maruyama / Runxin mini timer softener with hard water brining, you then get ripped off by extra service every year for 100 euro, when it should be hassle free for the first 10 years at least.

What you should get is a top of the range, reasonable capacity, metered, soft water brining, U.S. made softener (Clack) with 10 year warranty plus extension option, and be paying not much more than 600 to 900, and then €20 to €30 a year for salt, low water use, and absolutely no servicing for at least 10 years, maybe even 20.

Add the costs of a Clack water softener over 10 years and it should be €900 to €1200 tops.

Cheap Chinese (Canature - mock gold - repeat on sale) and Autotrol timer mini cabinet softeners are among the most basic on the market when used on yer average size house, and can end up costing the earth."

Water John

aah yes, its the raised sodium level is the medical issue.
Its not major but anyone should not be taking in sodium in all their drinking water.

aah yes

Water John wrote: »

aah yes, its the raised sodium level is the medical issue.
Its not major but anyone should not be taking in sodium in all their drinking water.

This is very, very wrong I'm sorry John, but the W.H.O. and the US.E.P.A and the EU drinking water Directives, and the Irish EPA and all national sanitary authorities allow up to the very minor 200 ppm (parts per million) or 200 mg/l sodium in potable mains fed drinking waters. These are very strict levels.

We have to take in to our mouths orally whether by potable drinks or by solid foods 2,400 mg/l of sodium per day in order to stay alive, and we generally take much more on average 3,200 mg/l which I agree we should cut down to 2,400 mg/l as the recommended level.



from the UK NHS ... http://www.nhs.uk/chq/pages/1138.aspx?CategoryID=51

We all need a little bit of sodium because it helps keep your body fluids at the right concentration and is needed for muscle and nerve activity. Salt (sodium chloride) is the main source of sodium in the UK diet, but the majority of us eat much more salt than we need. Eating too much salt over time is linked with high blood pressure, which can lead to serious problems such as heart disease or stroke.
Salt recommendations

On average, adults in the UK eat about 8.1g of salt (3.2g sodium) a day. This may not sound like much, but to reduce the risk of high blood pressure, it is recommended that adults should not be eating more than 6g of salt (2.4g sodium) a day.



http://www.modernghana.com/lifestyle/2891/why-is-sodium-important-for-human-survival.html

Sodium is a mineral essential to human survival -- so much so that the word "salary" comes from the Latin for salt. Without enough sodium in your body, your cellular function and neural communication shut down. Essential as sodium is, though, you don't need to supplement with it under ordinary conditions.

Sodium is essential to cellular function for many reasons. It's critical to absorbing certain nutrients from the digestive tract -- glucose, for instance -- and also allows some molecules that couldn't otherwise pass through the cell membrane to cross.

It's also one of the chemicals that helps establish the resting membrane potential. This produces a negative charge inside cells relative to the fluid surrounding them, which allows for transport of molecules and cellular communication, explains Dr. Gary Thibodeau in his book "Anatomy and Physiology."

Sodium is also critical to the function of the nervous system and to muscular contraction; nerves send signals conducted through movement of positively charged sodium particles.

Furthermore, sodium helps maintain fluid balance in the body. As your kidneys filter blood, explains Dr. Lauralee Sherwood in her book "Human Physiology," they actively resorb sodium into the bloodstream, which helps pull water back into the bloodstream along with it. This helps you hang on to as much water as possible.

Dtp1979

So is it ok and safe to drink softened water?

aah yes

Absolutely, (with a finite degree of discussion) softened water is considered to be of a better quality than unsoftened water for good reasons ...


1) The last post spells out super low sodium in softened water: typically 50 to 150 mg/l sodium - the global accepted tight limit is 200 mg/l (ppm) sodium.

2) Soft water has no chloride, so soft water does not have sodium chloride. So soft water has no salt, ie. zero salt. Nil, none, null, rien, geen, keiner, zip.

3) Humans have to have generally 2,400 mg of sodium, or 6,000 mg of salt as our daily recommended intake to keep us alive, but we take 8,000 mg salt !!

4) Everything we eat is good for us in certain amounts, too little or too much is not good, ie. calories, vitamins, fats, carbs, proteins, minerals, etc, etc.

5) Baby formula requires much less of certain things because babies are tiny, but babies drink breast milk which has plentiful salt content - 500 mg/l.


6) The W.H.O. sets the super tight limit of 200 mg/l sodium for all people to drink without setting age limits. Softened water is about half the WHO limit.

7) Many modern water softeners have high quality ion exchange resins, selective in not only removing hardness but radium, strontium, excess iron, etc.

8) Excess and toxic ions found in many well waters are able to be removed by modern water softener catalytic medias, rendering a much safer water.

9) If you are drinking a much safer water free of carcinogenic toxins, statistically you have a lower chance of developing cancers and other conditions.

10) Softening is just the start of the process of improving water quality, follow up filtration can make for really superb high quality water with no issues.


11) Humans evolved on easily accessed surface waters over millions of years, from rainwater, to lakes, rivers, ponds and streams. Little mineral content.

12) Since the birth of farming and civilisation gradually over the last thousand to ten thousand years, we started to also bore for water deep under rock.

13) The late development of mineral sourced water from rock boreholes, is way too late in our development to affect our evolved genetic water preference.

14) Humans source massive abundance of mineral content in food diets supporting and supplying all our nutritional needs. Water acts to hydrate us.

15) The W.H.O ultimately observed that through varying natural sources of water on the planet "Water is not a guaranteed medium of mineral origin".


Water in its purest form, free of micro-organisms particularly which is the number one threat to life, followed by being free of dirt and sediments, aesthetics and odours, heavy metals, nitrates and carcinogens, is the ideal nature of potable water that passes all the most stringent test limits set and agreed around the world. There is no limit set for mineral content, and the sodium limit is very strict at a super low 200 ppm or mg/l, which softened water is generally well easy to meet or beat these limits.

Are you on a special diet, low on vital minerals and nutrients, or do you have a rare inability to take on minerals and nutrients, do you need to take supplements or prefer highly mineralised water ? If we were crustaceans or snails and wanted higher mineralised water with super calcium carbonate content to build shells or exoskeletons, we could still drink pure rainwater without mineral content and get all the minerals we needed from a satisfactory mineralised food diet. Want and need are different things, and generally snails and crabs don't usually enter into philosophical discussions on whether water borne mineral levels are to be legislated for at set levels, put a snail on rainwater and it will still grow its shell.

In those rare cases of deficiencies where water can act as an additional source of mineral top up adding a few percent to the abundant minerals found in food, mineralisation of water is a simple thing if preferred, but drinking other sources of water such as mains tap water or bottled water depending on the area or brand of water may not have guaranteed levels of a mineral content you might suppose is your preferred level.

Water softeners also act to some extent in reducing chlorine content, although ion exchange resins do not like too much chlorine and therefore absorb a little which affects their long term life, they do in fact reduce chlorine to a certain degree by absorbing chlorine in their daily operation.

Wearb

I think that was a yes, Dtp )))

Water John

Ah Yes, I hope you are paid a good salary.

jimbev

What about watering plants in the garden have read before about some plants not being tolerant to the softened water is there any truth in this

aah yes

jimbev wrote: »

What about watering plants in the garden have read before about some plants not being tolerant to the softened water is there any truth in this

No. Perfectly fine ...

"In a climate with plenty of rainfall such as ours, plants growing in the ground outside and watered from time to time with soft water are not going to come to any real harm – any more than acid-loving plants that are going to turn up their toes if occasionally given the odd soak with hard, limy tap water during a drought."

If it was thought there was salt in softened water which there is not, and plants growing in arid climates without rainfall were fed on purely softened water with the highest level of sodium possible over the range of various softened waters with varying levels of sodium, (most at trace level or those found in organic fruit and veg), then you would think in that particular instance long term some species might not thrive as much. If there were salt ?

But, no, softened water does not have any salt, as it has no chloride. And it takes chloride and sodium to make sodium chloride. So there are no instances or studies (peer reviewed, etc) showing the effects of purely softened water fed on arid desert grown plants.

And of course in Ireland, in the dorty wet weather we get, odd watering with soft water in between lashings of rain (if it was thought harmful on niche desert species, when fed primarily by it) and this thinking transplanted with the wet winter weather here, would compare to a drop in the ocean.

jimbev

Thanks aah yes that does make sense

aah yes

just try to convince people something simple like starting to meter water, then it gets complicated !

Sleeper12

Dtp1979 wrote: »

So is it ok and safe to drink softened water?

I thought I'd read something that its not suitable for babies bottles.
If this is the case its not a big deal buying water for making babies bottles

Sleeper12

jimbev wrote: »

What about watering plants in the garden have read before about some plants not being tolerant to the softened water is there any truth in this

No truth at all. The water is soft water when it falls from the sky. It only becomes hard water when it comes from limestone bedrock.
If you were to use harvested rainwater for your washing machine you'd never need to use fabric softner

Dtp1979

Sleeper12 wrote: »

I thought I'd read something that its not suitable for babies bottles.
If this is the case its not a big deal buying water for making babies bottles

That's what I always thought. I was always told " don't use it for babies or people with heart conditions or elderly people"

aah yes

Dtp1979 wrote: »

That's what I always thought. I was always told " don't use it for babies or people with heart conditions or elderly people"

The ultimate truth about how low a sodium limit could be set to an even lower limit where there is currently no legislation or WHO or EU regulations for things like infants at certain ages or those on low sodium diets (not the elderly - they are not the same as babies) is a grey area.

Babies on breast milk take in a much higher level of sodium at 500 mg/l than the much lower supermarket milk at 300 mg/l and tap water limit of 200 mg/l and still the lower range for soft water at 50 to 150 mg/l sodium.

Doctors and nurses differ in their own opinions when it comes to sodium in water and infant formula concentrations and no real agreed figure as it is not legislated, but 20 to 30 mg/l is banded about. An RO system would only let through around 5 mg/l or less where if the starting level was softened at 100 mg/l sodium.

People with heart issues or on special diets, that have been recommended to reduce their sodium intake to normal levels or slightly less, can ultimately drink softened water, although if it were their only fluid intake and they stopped drinking softened water altogether they may find a 5% sodium reduction in their overall daily intake.

So think of sodium not as a toxic household bleach (that obviously you wouldn't want anyone to drink let alone a baby, the elderly, infirm, sick or with heart issues), but as an essential bodily mineral that we ingest in much higher levels of 2,400 mg to 3,200 mg daily, so the overall advice is not to overdo it and cut down a little, but it is not poisonous to anyone even babies, babies would die without sodium and drink it at a level of 500 mg/l in breast milk.