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Massive repair bill although all services done

  • 16-02-2016 2:35pm
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,532 ✭✭✭


    Hi there,
    my wife just came back from the dealer after a warning light popped up yesterday and they found some issues with the oil system. They quoted her 4000 Euro to fix it.
    First of all, this is a 2010 car, (Toyota urban Cruiser), and donedeal has one car from a trader listed for 10000. Does it make sense to invest that much money into the car repair?
    Second, she bought the car new, had it serviced every year and at some point mentioned to the trader garage that she thinks it is loosing oil. The traders garage claimed to have fixed it, what later showed that it was not fixed. As she was unhappy with the garage she changed to another Toyota dealer, that serviced it once and no issues where found, besides that it nearly ran out of oil. That was some months ago. Is there any comeback for us? Because of such a massive fault at a six year old car, that seems to have existed for longer time already, and was overlooked at the services, do we have any comeback at the dealer?


Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,472 ✭✭✭vandriver


    What needs to be done?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,795 ✭✭✭Neilw


    If it's a rebuild that's required due to running low on oil it will be an expensive lesson. Only takes a couple of minutes to check oil level which should be done regularly.


  • Moderators, Regional Midwest Moderators Posts: 11,183 Mod ✭✭✭✭MarkR


    Harika wrote: »
    Hi there,
    my wife just came back from the dealer after a warning light popped up yesterday and they found some issues with the oil system. They quoted her 4000 Euro to fix it.
    First of all, this is a 2010 car, (Toyota urban Cruiser), and donedeal has one car from a trader listed for 10000. Does it make sense to invest that much money into the car repair?
    Second, she bought the car new, had it serviced every year and at some point mentioned to the trader garage that she thinks it is loosing oil. The traders garage claimed to have fixed it, what later showed that it was not fixed. As she was unhappy with the garage she changed to another Toyota dealer, that serviced it once and no issues where found, besides that it nearly ran out of oil. That was some months ago. Is there any comeback for us? Because of such a massive fault at a six year old car, that seems to have existed for longer time already, and was overlooked at the services, do we have any comeback at the dealer?

    So it was brought in for a service, and discovered at the service that it was nearly out of oil? Damage done at that stage really. Did they fill it up, and recommend that it be checked again in a few days / a week?

    If they are talking about rebuilding the engine, shop around. I have no idea on what something like that would cost, but don't take the first quote as gospel.

    On a side note, must check my oil....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,585 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    Harika wrote: »
    Second, she bought the car new, had it serviced every year and at some point mentioned to the trader garage that she thinks it is loosing oil. The traders garage claimed to have fixed it, what later showed that it was not fixed. As she was unhappy with the garage she changed to another Toyota dealer, that serviced it once and no issues where found, besides that it nearly ran out of oil. That was some months ago. Is there any comeback for us? Because of such a massive fault at a six year old car, that seems to have existed for longer time already, and was overlooked at the services, do we have any comeback at the dealer?

    What massive fault? You haven't told us what the fault was?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 84,761 ✭✭✭✭Atlantic Dawn
    M


    Was there a warning or oil light on for weeks/months before it was noticed?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,520 ✭✭✭✭colm_mcm


    id stay out of the dealer network tbh. car is 2 years outside warranty so there's no chance they'll fully cover it.
    you will pay car less at an independent garage or engine supplier.

    out of inrerest is it petrol or diesel? and what is the fault?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,532 ✭✭✭Harika


    So checked back with my wife and the garage said "the Pistons and rings are gone and it's burning fuel". The new garage wanted to call Toyota to see if they would cover some of the repair cost as courtesy service. This causes me to believe something was missed from either garage at a service.
    The warning light popped up yesterday and she brought it straight into the garage. She is very quick here and always immediately brought it to the garage if a warning light was shown in the past.
    When she brought it last time to the yearly service, where they mentioned oil was nearly gone, no warning light was shown.
    And it is a petrol car.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,594 ✭✭✭tossy


    Harika wrote: »
    So checked back with my wife and the garage said "the Pistons and rings are gone and it's burning fuel". The new garage wanted to call Toyota to see if they would cover some of the repair cost as courtesy service. This causes me to believe something was missed from either garage at a service.
    The warning light popped up yesterday and she brought it straight into the garage. She is very quick here and always immediately brought it to the garage if a warning light was shown in the past.
    When she brought it last time to the yearly service, where they mentioned oil was nearly gone, no warning light was shown.
    And it is a petrol car.

    Was the warring light orange or red? If it was red she should have got the garage to come to her.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,616 ✭✭✭grogi


    Harika wrote: »
    So checked back with my wife and the garage said "the Pistons and rings are gone

    How the hell can they tell without taking the engine apart?
    Harika wrote: »
    and it's burning fuel".

    That's the whole point of the engine, isn't it?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,532 ✭✭✭Harika


    grogi wrote: »
    How the hell can they tell without taking the engine apart?



    That's the whole point of the engine, isn't it?

    She was an hour at the garage, no idea if this is enough time to look into the engine, I will check with her and I think they said oil, didn't catch it when I quoted it.


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  • Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 25,531 Mod ✭✭✭✭CramCycle


    The comeback should have been as soon as the first time it was mentioned popped up.
    she bought the car new, had it serviced every year and at some point mentioned to the trader garage that she thinks it is loosing oil. The traders garage claimed to have fixed it, what later showed that it was not fixed.

    So it was flagged at the time, how do you know it was not fixed and why did you not go straight back to them and point it out and ask for it to be repaired properly?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,585 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    Harika wrote: »
    She was an hour at the garage, no idea if this is enough time to look into the engine, I will check with her and I think they said oil, didn't catch it when I quoted it.

    Did they give her an actual quote, or by quote do you mean that they said "You could be looking at €4000 easy there mate"...


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,616 ✭✭✭grogi


    Harika wrote: »
    She was an hour at the garage, no idea if this is enough time to look into the engine, I will check with her and I think they said oil, didn't catch it when I quoted it.

    I guess the only two thing they could have done is measure the compression pressure inside each of the cylinders and put an endoscopic camera though spark plug hole into the cylinders...

    I would have topped it up with high viscosity oil, racing even (like 10W50) and check the level more regularly. Does it run?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,532 ✭✭✭Harika


    Did they give her an actual quote, or by quote do you mean that they said "You could be looking at €4000 easy there mate"...

    They said it will cost 4000 euro to fix, but we check with Toyota if they take half the cost.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,532 ✭✭✭Harika


    grogi wrote: »
    I guess the only two thing they could have done is measure the compression pressure inside each of the cylinders and put an endoscopic camera though spark plug hole into the cylinders...

    I would have topped it up with high viscosity oil, racing even (like 10W50) and check the level more regularly. Does it run?

    Yes they topped up oil and said to drive but as soon as the light flashes again to stop the car immediately and not continue driving.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 373 ✭✭jim-mcdee


    Heard of a few toyota engines prematurely expiring, particularity 1.6 vvti

    Not sure when the problem was, but I think oil starvation which in turn wore out the rings and burnt the oil, a double whammy of oil starvation.

    I would certainly per sure it with toyota, they might cover some of it. Though in a 6 year old car probably not.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,866 ✭✭✭✭bear1


    Hold on a second. They had the car for one hour and in that hour they were able to categorically confirm that the pistons were fcuked?
    Quick service that.
    I would seriously consider getting another opinion about it as it seems like they may just want 4k off of you.
    Piston ring failure or failing would show a few symptoms:

    white/grey exhaust smoke
    low power
    excessive oil consumption - this you would need to verify with the level in the car and when you last put some in
    poor performance

    Best way to know is a compression test.
    If you do plan to go down the Toyota route then have all documents prepared in order to request good will. But if the damage is down to negligence on your wife's part (allowing the engine to run low on oil) then I doubt they will give you anything.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,795 ✭✭✭Neilw


    Harika wrote: »
    Yes they topped up oil and said to drive but as soon as the light flashes again to stop the car immediately and not continue driving.

    The correct advice would be to check the oil level regularly so the light doesn't come on in the first place.

    It was drilled into me from a young age that oil is the life of an engine and to check it weekly, which in fairness may be ott but better safe than a €4k bill.

    Car owners these days seem to think there's no need to open the bonnet from one service to the next :rolleyes:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 411 ✭✭Bravobabe


    How much is a replacement engine? (if available might be an option)
    Like IVI, Dan Daly,


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 18,585 ✭✭✭✭bucketybuck


    bear1 wrote: »
    Hold on a second. They had the car for one hour and in that hour they were able to categorically confirm that the pistons were fcuked?
    Quick service that.

    The only way I could see this is if they have seen whatever fault this is enough times to be very confident they know what is wrong and what it needs to fix. If so they could draw up an estimate pretty quickly just by looking at old jobs.

    Of course in those instances such quotes are usually couched in a raft of "estimate only" and "we need to strip this thing first before confirming final costs" because they can't know for certain exactly what is needed after only a quick glance.

    Unless of the course the €4000 is just a "replace everything" price, which is harder to lose on.


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  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,690 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    Harika,

    Did you or your wife check the oil between the yearly services?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,532 ✭✭✭Harika


    Stheno wrote: »
    Harika,

    Did you or your wife check the oil between the yearly services?

    Yes, her Dad when uses the car checks the oil levels. But I cannot say if this is all three/six/nine months.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,690 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    Harika wrote: »
    Yes, her Dad when uses the car checks the oil levels. But I cannot say if this is all three/six/nine months.

    You can't really be blaming the garage if you haven't done regular routine checks on your car tbh


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,532 ✭✭✭Harika


    Stheno wrote: »
    You can't really be blaming the garage if you haven't done regular routine checks on your car tbh

    Fair enough, then the next question would be what would be the limit until the repair makes sense? Cause the car is anyway worth 8000 when sold. (Optimistic) when 4000 Euro is spend for the repair. If she hands the car in, she will get 3000 Euro scrappage.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23,688 ✭✭✭✭mickdw


    Harika wrote: »
    Fair enough, then the next question would be what would be the limit until the repair makes sense? Cause the car is anyway worth 8000 when sold. (Optimistic) when 4000 Euro is spend for the repair. If she hands the car in, she will get 3000 Euro scrappage.

    Jesus. Do not hand the car in for scrappage. Are you mad. Its a one owner car. Even if it needs an engine swap, it will amount to only fractions of the value of the car.


  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,690 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno


    Harika wrote: »
    Fair enough, then the next question would be what would be the limit until the repair makes sense? Cause the car is anyway worth 8000 when sold. (Optimistic) when 4000 Euro is spend for the repair. If she hands the car in, she will get 3000 Euro scrappage.

    Get a detailed quote for the dealer, then get some recommendations for other garages including independant garages and see what they quote?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,311 ✭✭✭BreadnBuddha


    There are times I come on here and think to myself that I must have ended up in the corner of a pub listening to a load of drunks righting the wrongs of the world.

    The car is 6 years old. It's been serviced and maintained by Toyota dealers all it's life. The owner knows its entire history.

    For whatever reason, it needs an engine rebuild. The why's and wherefore's are completely irrelevant. If the rings and pistons are shot, they're shot.

    The Toyota dealer is immediately talking about getting the manufacturer/distributor to front half the costs of the rebuild and that right there is the thing that tells you the OP's wife is being looked after, properly.

    No arguing, no having to beg for them to do something. The dealer, not even the dealer who sold the car or got paid for most of the servicing, is stepping up and trying to get it done and in a sense look after her because she's done it by the book.

    All of the 'you should have checked the oil' merchants are right, but it has nothing to do with whether or not the OP and his missus should be putting up a fight or not. They should be walking in there and shaking yer mans hand.

    You won't get a full engine rebuild on a modern engine, carried out by a main dealer, with genuine parts and all the rest for 2k. Not a chance, not if it's done right. That's what she's being offered and that's more than many would get, especially on a car that's YEARS out of warranty.

    You should change the thread title to '6 year old car needs engine rebuild and dealer's looking after us BECAUSE all services were done'.

    Go and give them your money. They'll fix it and you'll be back on the road, right as rain for at least another few years. It's for half nothing.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,311 ✭✭✭BreadnBuddha


    bear1 wrote: »
    Hold on a second. They had the car for one hour and in that hour they were able to categorically confirm that the pistons were fcuked?
    Quick service that.
    I would seriously consider getting another opinion about it as it seems like they may just want 4k off of you.
    Piston ring failure or failing would show a few symptoms:

    white/grey exhaust smoke
    low power
    excessive oil consumption - this you would need to verify with the level in the car and when you last put some in
    poor performance

    Best way to know is a compression test.
    If you do plan to go down the Toyota route then have all documents prepared in order to request good will. But if the damage is down to negligence on your wife's part (allowing the engine to run low on oil) then I doubt they will give you anything.

    Pull the plugs and have a look with a borescope. Diagnosis as complete as it needs to be: if the rings/pistons are gone the signs will be right there in the cylinder liners, a rebuild is in order.

    Not everything is rocket science or a scam.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,340 ✭✭✭mullingar


    +1 BnB.

    If the engine was starved of oil, a good hours work will diagnose the extent of the damage with a compression check, a look at the cylinder linings via a borescope, oil pressure measurement and a check in the oil filter for any swarf (crankshaft journal bearing wear)


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  • Moderators, Business & Finance Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 51,690 Mod ✭✭✭✭Stheno



    You won't get a full engine rebuild on a modern engine, carried out by a main dealer, with genuine parts and all the rest for 2k. Not a chance, not if it's done right. That's what she's being offered and that's more than many would get, especially on a car that's YEARS out of warranty.

    You should change the thread title to '6 year old car needs engine rebuild and dealer's looking after us BECAUSE all services were done'.

    Go and give them your money. They'll fix it and you'll be back on the road, right as rain for at least another few years. It's for half nothing.

    From the OPs posts, he is viewing the offer to potentially cover half the cost as an indication the garage did something wrong though!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,311 ✭✭✭BreadnBuddha


    Stheno wrote: »
    From the OPs posts, he is viewing the offer to potentially cover half the cost as an indication the garage did something wrong though!

    Yeah, I get that, but the great likelihood is that they didn't. In fact, they're doing everything exactly 'right' from where I stand. Great customer service and care. Car right in, capable diagnosis and immediately saying they'd be looking to get half the cost covered as goodwill from the disty/manufacturer. That's good service. Not unheard of, just good service. It's something most people would hope for when they've kept a full main dealer service history if something goes wrong.

    I know someone who had a new engine supplied and fitted by VW when the timing belt failed in a 1.4 Golf which was well out of warranty simply because it had full main dealer service history and the dealer was in good standing with the distributor. No hassle and no need to argue about it, free courtesy car, the works.

    What does it say about people when somebody's thinking a 6 year old one owner car is fit for scrappage because it will cost 2k of their money to put right while at the same time suspecting it's all down to the dealer because they're the ones trying to do the right thing by the customer?

    Time to get real OP.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,594 ✭✭✭tossy


    It's a very hard thread to get involved in, info in dribs and drabs and still a few unknowns.

    I don't care who serviced the car if you are getting one service a year and not checking the oil in between or checking it once or twice even then you are asking for trouble, if an oil pressure or level light comes on (we still don't know) and you drive the car to a garage you are asking for trouble.

    If after all this Toyota want to give you some goodwill (i'd be surprised) then you should take their hand off :D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,917 ✭✭✭✭Toyotafanboi


    bear1 wrote: »
    Hold on a second. They had the car for one hour and in that hour they were able to categorically confirm that the pistons were fcuked?
    Quick service that.
    I would seriously consider getting another opinion about it as it seems like they may just want 4k off of you.
    Piston ring failure or failing would show a few symptoms:

    white/grey exhaust smoke
    low power
    excessive oil consumption - this you would need to verify with the level in the car and when you last put some in
    poor performance

    Best way to know is a compression test.
    If you do plan to go down the Toyota route then have all documents prepared in order to request good will. But if the damage is down to negligence on your wife's part (allowing the engine to run low on oil) then I doubt they will give you anything.

    Wait, what?

    You're saying an hour is not long enough to diagnose; but you're saying the best way to diagnose is to do a compression test, visual smoke test and a drive to feel for power loss. Do you think that that couldn't be done in an hour?

    @OP if it's a petrol engine, go for a replacement from an independent mechanic. You should get a good job done for 25-50% of your current quote.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,297 ✭✭✭savagethegoat


    Harika wrote: »
    Yes, her Dad when uses the car checks the oil levels. But I cannot say if this is all three/six/nine months.

    3/6/9/ months? I would think weekly checks would be in order for a car with a known oil consumption problem. By the time the light comes on., it's probably too late for the engine


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,311 ✭✭✭BreadnBuddha


    Wait, what?

    You're saying an hour is not long enough to diagnose; but you're saying the best way to diagnose is to do a compression test, visual smoke test and a drive to feel for power loss. Do you think that that couldn't be done in an hour?

    @OP if it's a petrol engine, go for a replacement from an independent mechanic. You should get a good job done for 25-50% of your current quote.

    25-50% of the current quote from an independent? Which will have NO goodwill from Toyota? So, €1000-2000?

    Why not take the effectively €2000 offer from the Toyota dealer and get it done?

    Or do you really think it'll be done right for €500-1000?


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 73,520 ✭✭✭✭colm_mcm


    It is very unlikely that Toyota will cover 50% though, hopefully they do.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,917 ✭✭✭✭Toyotafanboi


    25-50% of the current quote from an independent? Which will have NO goodwill from Toyota? So, €1000-2000?

    Why not take the effectively €2000 offer from the Toyota dealer and get it done?

    Or do you really think it'll be done right for €500-1000?

    Because nobody has actually asked Toyota and really, the chances of getting any goodwill, never mind 50% goodwill on a car 2 years outside of warranty are slim to none.

    You'd get a good warrientied job done at an indy between €1 & 2k.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,616 ✭✭✭grogi


    Stheno wrote: »
    From the OPs posts, he is viewing the offer to potentially cover half the cost as an indication the garage did something wrong though!

    Absolutely not.

    Despite being after the warranty, it is a common practice for the importer to participate in the hefty repairs if the car was regularly serviced at an authorised garage.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,866 ✭✭✭✭bear1


    Wait, what?

    You're saying an hour is not long enough to diagnose; but you're saying the best way to diagnose is to do a compression test, visual smoke test and a drive to feel for power loss. Do you think that that couldn't be done in an hour?

    @OP if it's a petrol engine, go for a replacement from an independent mechanic. You should get a good job done for 25-50% of your current quote.

    I never said he should go for a drive etc. I said that failed piston rings would give off these symptoms.
    I don't think an hour would be enough to categorically confirm this, you'd need to start stripping the engine down.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,917 ✭✭✭✭Toyotafanboi


    bear1 wrote: »
    I never said he should go for a drive etc. I said that failed piston rings would give off these symptoms.
    I don't think an hour would be enough to categorically confirm this, you'd need to start stripping the engine down.

    Nobody is going to strip an engine on a car that old for confirmation sake. There's too much at stake.

    An hour would be plenty of time to make an educated estimation on what was going on.


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