Curious Occurrences?

The Chieftain

One of the side benefits of this hobby is that occasionally once comes across interesting historical events and personalities as recorded at the time, and what might be termed curious occurrences.

In my own case, my grandparents generation loved to tell what might be called ghost stories - for example, my grandfather often told the a tale about a "headless coachman" careering through the Faythe in Wexford, a version of which has since been published. Much more interesting though, is how historical reality can form a sad backdrop to such tales. Even as a child, I thought it very peculiar how my grandfather often returned to the theme of being buried alive - clutching hands emerging from graves, etc. Imagine my shock when one of the things I read on my very first visit to an LDS FHC (many moons ago now), was a contemporary record of precisely such a burial, in the graveyard directly adjoining where my grandfather's grandparents lived, and where my grandfather was born and grew up. The 1846 Parliamentary Gazetteer of Ireland article on Wexford records precisely such a tragic live burial in St. Selskar's Abbey. In retrospect, it seems clear that the memory of this tragedy was handed down in the family for over a hundred years, until it became the story that frightened me.

See page 541 in https://books.google.com/books?id=1HMuAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA538#v=onepage&q&f=false

Waitsian

My maternal grandfather used to tell his children the story of how a ghost visited him one night in his bed. The ghost, he said, was a friend of his that had died in the trenches. This would have been in the early 20s, in Belfast. My Grandad lived in North Belfast, and worked in Sailortown as a bartender. He was a lodger in a house in a row of terraced houses. Grandad said he was woken by a bright light and there stood this apparition. It never spoke, nor made a sound, just stared at him. It disappeared after a few minutes and Grandad went back to sleep, albeit he was a bit shook up! The next morning, a Sunday, he left to go to Mass, but on a whim, he turned left instead of right, to take a different route to church. It was quite windy and having walked just a few yards he heard, and felt, an almighty crash behind him. A chimney stack had fallen on the road from the neighbouring house, just where he should have been walking. He always maintained the friend's ghost had warned him of his impending doom.

Well I have no time for ghost stories but I did find out the exact location of his lodgings and lo and behold the house next door, on one's right as your exiting, is the only house on the street missing it's chimney! Made me chuckle.

Hermy

Not exactly on topic but I thought it was worth sharing.
Just looking at this passenger list and noticed my Ternent relatives were in good company!

Jellybaby1

Wow! Perhaps they chatted over tiffin?

The Chieftain

120 year old Wexfordman documented in census search forms!
John Carty claimed to be 120 years old in 1920. Census search forms returned with John Carty, aged 20, in 1821 census.
See
http://censussearchforms.nationalarchives.ie/reels/c19/007246717/007246717_00199.pdf
and subsequent page
http://censussearchforms.nationalarchives.ie/reels/c19/007246717/007246717_00200.pdf

Hermy

I'm not sure if this is the sort of curious occurance you had in mind for the thread Chieftain but rather than start a new thread I thought I'd post it here.
I Googled 'Ignatius Moore Belgree' and found this curious reference

On the last (blank) page are some ms. notes relating to Ignatius O'Moore, of Belgree, who died 24 Dec., 1740, aged 100 years.

which appears in the Catalogue of fifteenth-century books in the Library of Trinity College, Dublin, and in Marsh's Library, Dublin, with a few from other collections (with illustrations) by T. K. Abbott.
This is presumably a relative of the Ignatius whose will of 1727 I recently mentioned but one can only wonder why his name appears in this obscure text.

spurious

Does that entry imply it was a hand written note in a breviary? Would you have had a priest in the family?

Hermy

spurious wrote: »

...breviary...

Today's new word.

The parish priest in the area in the late 1700's was Michael Moore though I haven't yet established if he was of that family.
In the late 1800's John Moore of that family was parish priest of Clondalkin so the connection with the church is a possible explanation.

Hermy

I wonder would any of you familiar with Trinity College Library be able to tell me if - providing it still exists - I might be able to view this old text to take note of the ms. notes relating to Ignatius O'Moore.

The Chieftain

Hermy wrote: »

I wonder would any of you familiar with Trinity College Library be able to tell me if - providing it still exists - I might be able to view this old text to take note of the ms. notes relating to Ignatius O'Moore.

The library has a web page outlining access at
https://www.tcd.ie/Library/using-library/admissions.php#OtherApplicants

Note in particular the special limitations on the manuscripts collection.

Hermy

Yes, quite good info at that site - particularly glad to see that they accept enquiries from non-members.

pedroeibar1

Hermy wrote: »

I wonder would any of you familiar with Trinity College Library be able to tell me if - providing it still exists - I might be able to view this old text to take note of the ms. notes relating to Ignatius O'Moore.

Hermy, I've done some research there - really nice and helpful people in the Manuscripts and Archives Research area. Outline your request by email and they might even do the work for you - they did that for me!

Hermy

I actually phoned them this morning and spoke to a very helpful chap who confirmed that they have the book and advised me to ring the Early Printed Works desk on Monday to arrange to view it.
I was expecting something much more serious and austere but delighted to be wrong in this case.

Hermy

Well after a few more phone calls today I received these images by email.
They weren't able to tell me anything of the history of the book or who might have made the notes in the back of it but it makes for very interesting reading.
There's a few words I can't make out if anyone would care to offer suggestions.

Ignatius O’Moore of Belgree first
cousin to Ignatius of Ballintrae
departed this life 17th December 1740 –
aged one hundred years.
Commonly called Naty Bawn __ white
This man is interred inside the old
Church walls of __________ – where
he bought the bones of his ancestors –
____ of the old church yard of Kilbride –
a dispute he had with his first cousin
he dug all the graves up and put all
the bones he could get in an oak chest
and all his family were interred in it
here after. – this happened about 1690 –
Father Michael Moore of Belgree parish priest of
Dunboine is interred in said vault –
it is called the alter to this day
The Belgree family are all extinct
The last person that was in Belgree was Ignatius O’Moore
he lost all his property about 60 years ago –
by a Bill of Discovery that was filed against him
by Sir Thos Tailor court bailiff he was tried in
trim and was proved a Catholic and lost all
his property. and was got dead in his bed at
Squire Warrens of Count Duff near Mull___
A Catholic could not hold any property if a prostestant
claimed it and proved him a Catholic he lost all
after being in Belgree for 300 years.

The O’Moore after being expelled out
of Leix now the Queens County
in 1600 were obliged to ____ of a Little
Ground at _________ __________ and
Downs town after _______ 238 thousand
415 acres of Ground 8 _______ and
39 perches.

pedroeibar1

First one - will look at the others later


Ignatius O’Moore of Belgree first
cousin to Ignatius of Ballintrae
departed this life 17th December 1740 –
aged one hundred years.
Commonly called Naty Bawn or white
This man is interred inside the old
Church walls of Mullahudad (Mullhuddart?) – where
he bRought the bones of his ancestors –
got of the old church yard of Kilbride –
a dispute he had with his first cousin
he dug all the graves up and put all
the bones he could get in an oak chest
and all his family were interred in it
here after. – this happened about 1690 –
Father Michael Moore of Belgree parish priest of
Dunboine is interred in said vault –
it is called the alter to this day
The Belgree family are all extinct
The last person that was in Belgree was Ignatius O’Moore
he lost all his property about 60 years ago –
by a Bill of Discovery that was filed against him
by Sir Thos Tailor (earl?) bailiff he was tried in
trim and was proved a Catholic and lost all
his property. and was got dead in his bed at
Squire Warrens of Count (Court?) Duff (possibly Corduff) near Mullhuddard
A Catholic could not hold any property if a prostestant
claimed it and proved him a Catholic he lost all
after being in Belgree for 300 years.

Naty Bawn is a local name (Naty abbreviation of Ignatius, bawn for bán, white.)
The Tailor is possibly related to the Headfort family who were earls? I don't see 'court' as the word..

pedroeibar1

Second one is

armorial insignia of O’Moore
Semper fidelis et audax

Check that crest/shield with the motto (‘Always faithful & brave’) as it would relate to a specific O’Moore - I think’ Fairbairns Crests’ is online, free.

The O’Moore after being expelled out
of Leix now the Queens County
in 1600 were obliged to accept of a Little
Ground at Ballinah __________ and
Downs town after 'transferring' ?? 238 thousand
415 acres of Ground 8 baronies and
39 parishes.

as an aside, I researched a Netterville lady from that area, same period, and it’s stuck in my head that the Moors of Co. Meath are not those of Laois????

mickmackey1

after _______ 238 thousand

forfeiting

The Chieftain

Hermy wrote: »

Well after a few more phone calls today I received these images by email.
They weren't able to tell me anything of the history of the book or who might have made the notes in the back of it but it makes for very interesting reading.
There's a few words I can't make out if anyone would care to offer suggestions.

T'were I thee, I might hasten to betake myself to the Genealogical Office/NLI and start perusing the registered pedigrees, funeral entries and other relevant material. Actually, the funeral entries are supposed to be online on the NLI website.

Hermy

Today I visited the Early Printed Works dept at Trinity College and all were just as helpful as they had been on the phone.
I got to see the original book and a later reproduction. There was one additional item on the first page noting the death of Christian White in 1730 who I know to be the wife of the cousin Ignatius Moore of Ballintrae mentioned above.

Thanks for the suggestions re the transcripts with which I concur.

Ignatius O’Moore of Belgree first
cousin to Ignatius of Ballintrae
dẹparted this life 17th December 1740 –
aged one hundred years.
Commonly called Naty Bawn or white
this man is interred inside the old
church walls of Mullahudart – where
he brought the bones of his ancestors –
got of the old church yard of Kilbride –
a dispute he had with his first cousin
he dug all the graves up and put all
the bones he could get in an oak chest
and all his family were all interred in it
here after. – this happened about 1690 –
Father Michael Moore of Belgree parish priest of
Dunboine is interred in said vault –
it is called the alter to this day
The Belgree family are all extinct
The last person that was in Belgree was Ignatius O’Moore
he lost all his property about 60 years ago –
by a Bill of Discovery that was filed against him
by Sir Thos Tailor Earl bailiff he was tried in
trim and was proved a Catholic and lost all
his property. and was got dead in his bed at
Squire Warrens of Count Duff near Mullahudart
A Catholic could not hold any property if a prostestant
claimed it and proved him a Catholic he lost all
after being in Belgree for 300 years.

The O’Moore after being expelled out
of Leix now the Queens County
in 1600 were obliged to accept of a Little
Ground at Ballinah Ballintrae and
Downs town after forfeiting 238 thousand
415 acres of Ground 8 Baronies and
39 parishes.

The Chieftain wrote: »

T'were I thee, I might hasten to betake myself to the Genealogical Office/NLI and start perusing the registered pedigrees, funeral entries and other relevant material. Actually, the funeral entries are supposed to be online on the NLI website.

Now that you mention it I do remember John Grenham writing about these funeral entries but had since forgotten them as they weren't of any use to me at the time cocooned as I was in the relative comfort of civil and parish records!

pedroeibar1

mickmackey1 wrote: »

forfeiting

Bang on! I should have made that out! Leave it to a Castleconnell man!

Hermy

Hermy wrote: »

...Squire Warrens of Count Duff near Mullahudart...

Warren of Corduff perhaps.